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  | Archive through July 22, 2004 | Jeffrey Bloomfied | 50 | 1 | 7-22-04 9:50 pm |
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 267
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 8:26 am: | 
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Chris Phillips,
Thanks for checking your list of West Country Members of Parliament to see if Mr Anderson was one.
And many thanks to Jennifer D. Pegg for looking up and transcribing the biographical details concerning the Anderson Parliamentarian.
I was delighted to discover that he had attended the Lunar Temple. He is not alone...
Our thanks, I think, should also go to John Savage for filling us in on the importance of the Inner and Middle Temples.Thanks for the link,John.
In the dim dark past, I visited the library at the Inns of Court and checked the Call books for barristers "called to the Bar" from the Inner Temple for the same period as Montague Druitt. When I find time I'll drag it out and check the Post Office Directory lists above with it. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2736
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 11:12 am: |
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Yes, thanks John Savage for that information. I have emailed the archivist and will post any reply.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2737
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 1:59 pm: |
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Yesterday I put some questions to Dr Clare Rider, archivist at the Inner Temple. She has kindly replied as follows :
In reply to your enquiry, which has been forwarded to me, I can confirm that Montague Druitt was a member of the Inner Temple.
He was admitted to the Inn on the 17 May 1882 and was called to the bar on 29 April 1885.
In the admission register he was described in 1882 as 'aged 24, of New College. Oxford, BA, the second son of William Druitt, physician, of Wimbourne Minster, in the County of Dorset'.
You ask about chambers in the Inn. These were divided into individual sets of two or more rooms, located either side of the main staircase. There were two sets on each floor. Occasionally sets were in combined tenancies, but usually they were let separately.
Often chambers were sub-let to under-tenants. Some were residential (generally those on the top floor or top two floors) - the rest were in professional occupation. The rents varied according to the desirability of the set.
On consulting the chambers reference book for the late 1880s for 9 King's Bench Walk, I discovered the following tenants:
E H Bedford - basement north £40 pa
F I Coltman - basement south £40 pa and ground floor south £80 pa
T L Mears - ground floor north £80 pa
A R Jelf - 1st floor north £90 pa
C H Anderson - 1st floor south £95 pa
G S Brown - 2nd floor north £80 pa
G St J Mildmay- 2nd floor south £80 pa
H G Cooper - 3rd floor north £60 pa
J Wingfield - 3rd floor south £60 pa
I hope that this will be of interest.
Clare Rider
Dr. C.M.Rider,
Archivist,
Inner Temple Archives,
Treasury Office,
Inner Temple,
London EC4Y 7HL
Tel: 020 7797 8251
Robert
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Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 962
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 4:47 pm: |
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Many Thanks to all of you for providing such thorough research.I note from Robert"s findings that it leaves out the particular tenancy Druitt held-and whether it was residential or solely professional could be quite illuminating.Anyway some valuable insights above.
These Campbells seem to have had rather a debauched time ofit over the years.I think the Duchess of Argyle cited above provided a sense of continuity in this regard.
Still they weren"t the only ones -Lord Randolph
was defititely well known for his shenanigans which like Prince Albert"s seem to have been rumoured to have caused his early demise.
|
David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 10:17 pm: |
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Hi there,
Dyke-Acland was also the name of Dr Gull's son-in-law.
Regards
David
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Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 965
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 9:14 am: |
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Thats right and both the medium employed at the time of the murders and only fairly recently Dr Stowell who was his friend and colleague/apprentice[?] point a finger at him regarding involvement in some kind of cover up reputed to have been done by Gull himself regarding Prince Albert.However I tend to think myself that if indeed the prince did have any involvment [unlikely-unless ghoulishlyin Mitre Square- day after the murders as has been written about]then it really must have had to do with his contracting venereal diseases or something like that.But from the accounts of him I"ve read he seems to have been a bit mentally challenged and slightly silly and I cant picture the ripper as either-in fact it brings me back to the thread-much more likely to have been a smartish[if somewhat unbalanced ]lawyer-such as Druitt or one of his neighbours in Kings Bench Walk than a person who wasnt known to think quickly on his feet.
Natalie |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 214
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 6:11 pm: |
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Hi David,
Reginald Brodie Dyke Acland was the younger brother of Theodore Dyke Acland, who married Caroline Cameron Gull in 1888. It was of course Theodore who is mentioned in the Royal conspiracy theory, his father in law being Sir William Withey Gull, the Royal physician.
Best Regards
John Savage |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 423
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 2:23 pm: |
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Hi All,
You know, it is of interest to take some stock in what we have garnered about the personnel at 9 King' Bench Walk.
There is (first of all) Montague John Druitt, cricketer, barrister, teacher, suicide, and suspect. He was a graduate of Winchester and New College, Oxford. Admitted to the Inn 17 May 1882, and called to the bar, 29 April 1885.
There is Algernon Haskett Smith (or Haskett-Smith), cricketer, barrister, died 1887. Attended Eton and Univesity College, Osfore. Admitted to Middle Temple on 23 April 1880, Called to the Bar 18 April 1883.
There is Edward Henslowe (or Henslow) Bedford, solicitor (admitted in 1864). He was a friend of the Earl of Euston, and a witness for Euston in the criminal libel suit against Ernest Parkes regarding the Cleveland Street Scandal. He also was twice in bankruptcy (1888 and 1907). He may have headed a firm called Bedford & Bate at 9 King's Walk in 1887 and 1888 (but not, apparently, 1889). His bankruptcy may have led to the demise of this partnership. But in 1897 he was partnered again with one Ernest George Bryant Godding.
There is Reginald Brodie Dyke Ackland, barrister, who is the brother of Dr. Sir William Gull's son-in-law Theodore Dyke Ackland (who married Gull's daughter in 1888). Gull too is a suspect (I think he's a very weak one) for being Jack.
There is Sir Herbert George Denman, bart, barrister - who may be the future Law Lord, Lord Denman (though this has not been demonstrated).
There is Charles Henry Anderson, Q.C., M.P. Called to the bar, January 1867. Author of a legal book (no title give). He was a Gladstone Liberal from Elgin and Nairn shires in Scotland.
He got his Q.K. in 1885. He was defeated at the general election in 1885 (which makes me wonder why that "M.P." was part of his name in 1888). He may have been elected in 1880 due to the great "Midlothian Campaign" Gladstone ran (aided by his manager, Lord Roseberry), which tied Anderson to Gladstone's political fortunes, which sank in 1885 (due to the death of Gordon, the Home-Rule bill and Parnell, and the actions of Joseph Chamberlain).
And then that Lord Colin Campbell - is it the son of the war hero from the Sepoy Revolt, Lord Clive and Strathnairn, or is it the notorious 4th son of the Duke of Argyle who had the terrible and unsuccessful divorce action of 1886. The latter would have been naming Lord Blandford, older brother of Lord Randolph Churchill (and future Duke of Marleborough) as a correspondent.
Let us think Lord Colin Campbell is our 1886 divorce case figure. Druitt's family had contact, via the family of Lord Wimborne, to the family of Lord Randolph - but how really close was it?
Let us also consider, given the tie-in with Cleveland street under Bedford, that Lord Colin Campbell (the Duke of Argyle's 4th son) was the younger brother of the Marquis of Lorne, who was married to Queen Victoria's daughter (and thus Lord Lorne was uncle to the Duke of Clarence!).
Also, although inevitable, at the 1886 trial, another correspondent sued by Lord Campbell was Captain Eyre Massey Shaw, Chief of the London Fire Department. His attorney there was William Gully, future Speaker of the House of Commons. William Gully was the son of Dr. James Manby Gully, who was ruined by his involvement with Florence Ricardo Bravo, who was suspected of poisoning her husband Charles Turner Bravo in the 1876 Balham Mystery. One of the treating doctors of Charles Bravo, as he was dying, was Sir William Gull.
I might add to this (again inevitable possibly) Lady Colin Campbell (nee Elizabeth Blood) was defended by Sir Charles Russell, who later defended Florence Maybrick, for poisoning James Maybrick (another suspect).
Nothing of this may mean anything, but it is fascinating.
Jeff |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 970
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 4:20 pm: |
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Jeff yes fascinating indeed!Its looking to me like a bunch of Hoorah Henrys may have found Monty"s suicide very convenient.Maybe just maybe old Dr Stowell was right to point a finger at the prince while, as some have suggested, he was actually trying to point the finger at Gull-[as did the medium of the time.Could it be that Dr Stowell had been told things or seen things from Dr Gull"s daughter [And Theodore Dyke Ackland"s wife] that we still dont know about?After all Dr Stowell was a highly distinguished Doctor himself and a colleague as well as executor to Theodore Dyke Ackland.Its all too much of a coincidence somehow.[thanks again Jeff for the info on these "gents"!
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2742
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 6:14 pm: |
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Hi
Since Gull keeps popping up, here is his "Times" obit that I managed to save before access was restricted :
Jan 30th 1890
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 424
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 8:29 pm: |
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Hi Robert and Natalie:
Thanks for the kind words Natalie, but keep in mind, we are dealing with people in an elitist society, and they are in an elitist profession. So these connections can be just normal, given the social settings. More needs to be shown to really connect anything between the solicitors, barristers (and their friends, families and connections) of 9 Kings' Walk, and Monty Druitt (not to mention Whitechapel). Still it is worth a closer examination.
As for Dr. Gull, while we congradulate him for saving the life of the future King Edward VII of Great Britain in 1871, I can't help recalling what a poet (Alfred Austin, I believe) wrote at the time:
"Over the electric wires, the message came,
He is no better, he is much the same!"
Unlike the "Great McGonigal", Austin was made the Poet Lauriate by Lord Salisbury in 1895 (over Kipling, Wilde, Dowson, and Swinburne). His poetry remained at this level until he died in 1913. Salisbury has much to answer for. He also kept Henry Mathews on as Home Secretary from 1886 - 1892.
Jeff |
David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 36
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 10:48 pm: |
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It seems to me that it is possible to link Druitt, or the Druitt family, in three moves to almost anyone who was anyone at that time. So heres another anchovy for the pizza:
Doctor Gull certified Harriet Mordaunt as insane. Harriet Mordaunt was under the care of Doctor Tuke, he being the doctor who signed the deathe certificate of Anne Druitt - Montagues mother.
Regards
David
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David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 352
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 10:54 pm: |
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Sounds like Montague Druitt was the Kevin Bacon of 19th Century London. Six Degrees of Druitt 
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David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 37
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 11:03 pm: |
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It could be a whole new thread.
Regards
David
|
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 268
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 7:32 am: |
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Hello Fellow Coincidence-Studiers,
The Davids above have pointed to something I think, John Savage alluded to in his clear summary of traditions and procedures for budding barristers at the Middle and Inner Temples.
Pupils from Winchester College mostly, it seems, went to New College Oxford, and those in pursuit of a law career, went traditionally, to the Inner or Middle Temples.After graduating,most of them
sought chambers within that legal precinct.This means several Winchester pupils later trod similar paths.This could be seen as coincidence, but it was actually a traditional path for "Wykehamists"(Winchester School attenders).
I find George St John Arundel Mildmay interesting. His brothers went to 9 Eliot Place School back in the year 1871.
George himself, went to Winchester (Short Half 1868), Inner Temple (1879),chambers 9 Kings Bench Walk.And whilst he joined the Midland Circuit, but Montague Druitt joined the western Circuit, Mildmay -(born 1856)- did not marry till 1898, and at some time resided at 16 Bolton Street, Picadilly... His marriage was into the Hambros banking family. |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 971
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 5:18 pm: |
|
Hi John,this again shows a royal link re those neighbours because the descendants of the Hambro family feature highly in numbers of royal events to this day -one was a bridesmaid at the wedding of Charles and Diana [I think I am correct]and another was I think a lady in waiting together with Princess Margaret etc at the coronation of Queen Elizabeth 11.Maybe they are different but I dont so since theyre all bankers.
Getting back to 9 Kings Bench Walk and the "Wykehamists" these Mildmays really do warrant further research!
Natalie
ps thanks to Robert for that Times Orbit on Gull
great to have that. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 425
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 9:21 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
I think the reason the Hambros play such a role in Royal events is that their's is the Royal Family's bank.
The idea of "six degrees of seperation" from Monty is in the back of my mind, but among people who would have some immediate contact with him - not just as a parlor game. By the way, I was thinking about our Parliamentarian, Mr. Anderson. He was a Gladstonian Liberal, which would mean he was opposed to international alliances with "dubious" allies. Gladstone was opposed to the image of "Greater" Britain with it's expanding empire, as opposed to Disraeli. Disraeli, after all, acquired the Suez Canal, and made Victoria Empress of India. Disraeli also made an unofficial alliance with the German Empire of Otto Bismarck, culminating in their shared moment of supreme glory: the Congress of Berlin in 1878. Despite the fact that it pacified (or seemed to pacify) the Eastern European questions until 1908, Gladstone denounced it. Bismarck never forgave Gladstone, and throughout the 1880s (when Gladstone was Prime Minister) he did everything to belittle or belabor Gladstone's policies in Europe and the globe. If you remember, another opponent of Bismarck once debated that Otto's policies were a "curse on the world". His name was Montague John Druitt. Monty would have shared some opinions (most likely) with fellow Gladstonian Anderson.
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 269
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 7:53 am: |
|
Thanks Natalie and Jeff,
For your further revelations concerning the Hambros.I agree these Mildmays deserve a closer look. Particularly in the absence of other concrete leads.
In the back of my mind I have the idea someone else who figured in the JTR tableau, or someone else in M J Druitt's world possessed the name "Mildmay" as a middle name. Can't recall who...
I found your discerning deductions concerning M J Druitt's political leanings fascinating and useful, Jeff. "Well done"..(as they say in the cook books!).
I wonder if the Mildmays figure in any writings on the Royals, or perhaps there are "Neville" archives somewhere?
I recall the "Arundel" fore-name signified a Debretts type connection for the Mildmays. Perhaps there are family papers in that direction...? |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 11:57 pm: |
|
"Sounds like Montague Druitt was the Kevin Bacon of 19th Century London. Six Degrees of Druitt."
And yet we cannot connect him to Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, or Kelly.
Or can we? I think the person who can deserves a big seegar.
Regards, Vincent
|
David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 38
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 1:36 pm: |
|
No we cant, not yet anyway, but is this not a characteristic of the 'perfect' serial killer?
Regards
David
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Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 979
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 5:11 pm: |
|
Yes really helpful Jeff.I did once wonder if Monty had something of a "pilgrim soul" thinking about his debates but then someone pointed out that they more or less picked the topics from a hat!But its also the case that Gladstone was obsessed with the "reform" of prostitutes and even had them back to sup tea with his wife and himself.Its possible Druitt or one of these gentlemen were likewise obsessed with their "reform"-and then took it to drastic lengths when the "balance of the mind "got disturbed.I know this theory was bandied about even at the time but it could fit with a Druitt who felt he was losing his mind[as he said in his suicide note].Maybe it began with some kind of semi religious quest and ended in a complete breakdown.I"m drifting off here so I"ll finish.
Hope something turns up on the Mildmays soon.
Natalie |
David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 39
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 5:21 pm: |
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Hi Natalie. This is pretty much what Tom Cullen thought. 'Autumn of Terror'. He pointed out that Toynbee Hall (in the middle of it all) was a meeting place for do-gooders and social reformers of all types.
Regards
David
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Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 981
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 5:38 pm: |
|
Thanks David.I really must get a copy and read it.
I often think The International Working Mens Club
had just such Toynbee Hall Types attending its Saturday night Lectures and that it could have been one of these who said to Elizabeth Stride "You would say anything but your prayers".
I think william Morris[well known do gooder type]attended both meeting places-definitely Toynbee Hall!
Cheers natalie |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 983
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 6:04 pm: |
|
PS Jeff-ah!---that surely accounts for their inclusion at such major events!
Natalie |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 426
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:14 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
Yes - it is true that debate subjects are picked from a hat. Which is why my comment on Anderson-Gladstone-Druitt vis-a-vis Bismarck was an afterthought. It was not as strong a contact as some of the other ones mentioned (in fact, there is no proof that Anderson and Druitt talked to each other at all - for that matter there is no proof of Monty talking to any of his fellow lodgers aside from possibly nodding "Hello" to them.). This is why we need more digging here.
Thinking about it, it would be more intriguing if this "six degrees of Monty" game pushed up a name like "Joe Barnett" or "Michael Ostrog". When that happens, we really have to take notice. You see, Monty and his fellow lawyers and upper crust people are likely to intermingle socially. Monty and Aaron Kosminski or Elizabeth Stride would be less likely to mingle socially. If, however, a photo of Monty with any other suspect turned up (that is proved to be real), that would be a fascinating find.
Jeff |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 984
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 6:44 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,yes it would but I dont expect such a photo to turn up somehow.
But other things might-upper crust gossip for example---the rumour was around the cicuit I am sure[even then though such rumour without evidence could only add to the suspicion rather than prove anything].I feel sure Dr Stowell had learnt things he"d kept quiet about for 50 years-when he learnt something from Gull"s daughter or son in law through that mysterious link to Gull in Kings Bench Walk through his son in laws brother.Unless he was just being mischievous.He seems to have been "in the Know" so to speak-though why he pointed to Prince Albert rather than Druitt I dont Know.Donald Rumbelow points out in his book that photos of the prince and Druitt resemble one another in which case they could possibly have been taken for each other.
Natalie
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 427
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 8:41 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
I wish somebody would do a solid study on Dr. Stowell. In the back of my mind is the phrase, "Hidden Agenda". I wonder if he disliked the royal family, or if he hid the truth and the wrong figure was pointed to (I have looked at the photos of Clarence and Druitt, and there is a resemblance but not that great a one).
My suspicion is that Stowell's "S" may be another person - not Druitt, nor Clarence, nor James Kenneth Stephen (the discovery of Michael Harrison, on fairly weak grounds), but a person I call "Spencer". No he is not for hire. Spencer came from a socially prominent family, and was a well known public figure, and he did die of syphilis. Whether those facts entitle him to be Jack the Ripper is another matter. My guess is that they don't. However, before I continue on this somebody has to present more information about Dr. Stowell, his contacts, his personality, his opinions, his politics. Then I can see if my guess might be right.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 40
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:07 pm: |
|
We dont know how old Montague was in the photographs. Except for the full frontal one - this was taken at Winchester when he was 18. It should also be remembered that there was an age difference of 7 years between PAV and MJD. I agree that there is a remarkable likeness between the two shown in some photographs and the suggestion that MJD could have 'ghosted' for PAV (I was the rippers double!) has been made before.
It is all within the realms of possibility. This may now become the ending of future Jack the Ripper movies. MJD to PAV in 2 - Druitts body was discovered about 100 yards from 'The Osiers" Harry Wilsons house on Chiswick Mall. PAV often visited 'The Osiers' which was said to be a 'chummery' rather like Cleveland Street I imagine.
As far as Stowell is concerned I think that great caution is urged. Among other things he claimed to have learned from Doctor Gulls private notes that PAV had not died of influenza but from venereal disease. Whatever PAV died from Gull could not possibly have recorded since Gull himself died two years before PAV. One must therefore question whether Stowell ever actually knew anything other than the usual anecdotes.
Regards
David
|
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 988
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 4:38 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and David,
Yes with you there Jeff-we need to know more about
him.However he speaks highly of Dr Gull and according to Paul Begg was a "distinguished Doctor and the executor of Theodore Dyke Ackland"s will" and a friend of Dyke Ackland and colleague of Gull himself and a trusted family friend of Gull"s daughter Caroline Acland.
Interested in "Spencer"[I must admit that I myself have wondered if he was referring to the "S" meaning Sickert!]In the 1920"s when Stowell said he spoke with Caroline Acland Sickert would still be alive and well for a forther 15-20 years-he died in 1942-Stowell went on until the 70"s but unfortunately died within days of his dramatic revelations-the fall out to them probably overwhelming to this man who was quite aged by then.However I seem to recall that his family were unhappy about him "coming clean"or whatever and were most unhelpful about it all.
As far as your point about dates goes David I have just looked it uop again and it appears that Stowell simply stated the following-"Caroline-Gull"s daughter told him that Gull"s diary contained an entry for November 1889 -"Informed blank that his son was dying of syphilis of the brain"This it seems provides the basis for Dr stowell"s theory.Also that he apparently knew the identity of "blank" and remained discreet about that until just before his death.PAV died on 14 jan.1892.He died of Pneumonia following influenza.
This doesnt mean he didnt also suffer from syphilis.In fact he was apparently treated by a gifted young Doctor called Alfred Fripp who later became a famous surgeon -a prescription found among his papersafter his death suggests the prince suffered a gonorrhoeal infection.[Cecil Roberts 1932 "Albert Fripp" London Hutchinson
Cheers Natalie |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 270
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 6:53 am: |
|
Hello All,
Taking care not to stray too far from this thread (after all, there was a Dyke-Acland at 9KBW),Fripp was apparently a local general practitioner in Norfolk, when he was discreetly visited by two well-dressed gentlemen one day.His demonstrable discretion obviously led to his promotion to possessor of a Royal Medical Warrant.
David Andersen's comment on Montague Druitt being Prince Albert Victor's double, is an interesting scenario. And the whole subject of MJD's appearance and photographs deserves its own thread.
Would you care to start one David? If you do, I for one, would like to air some observations gleaned from looking at MJDs pictures.
(For instance: the one used on this site, you know, head on hand gazing at an illustration in a book...Is that photo reversed?).
I think I was the very first Ripperologist to gaze upon that photo in recent times...but that story is not for this thread. |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 271
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 7:01 am: |
|
I omitted to add my congratulations to Robert Charles Linford for his very informative details concerning the rental and occupancy arrangements at 9 Kings Bench Walk around MJDs era.
And the TIMES obituary for Sir William Gull, showing he was paralysed down one side when he was meant to be paralysing with fear, women of the streets of Whitechapel-four years before his death.
Some Ripperologists will say anything but their prayers. ( Not you Robert!). |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 991
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 7:39 am: |
|
Hi John,I,for one have never considered Gull seriously as a candidate for JtR.But I think he may have known who was[MAY HAVE!].
I would love to know who was meant to be "S".
I think your idea of a thread for the proposed resemblance between Montague Druitt and PAV is a brilliantidea.If David doesnt start one maybe I will.
While I accept that none of these upper crust Gents seem candidates for JtR ie Druitt and his neighbours from 9 KBW or Randolph Churchill[who socialised with several of them apparently]I do feel uncomfortable about dismissing a suspect from any of the social classes who had syphilis and died young[ish] and who had already a reputation as being debauched&/or violent.The syphilis itself as it progressed would have brought on a madness/violence which could have led to these atrocities.
Myself I believe few could have carried off these murders and been undectected UNLESS they had
"friends in High places" who helped build some sort of "wall of silence".in other words intelligent well appointed types such as Druitt"s neighbours in 9 KBW.As for Druitt he seems to me to have been neither syphilitic or debauched from any evidence whatever.Possibly he socialised with his neighbours though,possibly he was gay[which given the prejudice ofVictorian London may have earned him the insulting label of "sexually insane",Possibly he was beginning to go crazy though.How convenient I have begun to think.
Natalie |
David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 41
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 1:04 pm: |
|
You are quite right Natalie about Stowell.
Regards
David
|
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 999
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 1:13 pm: |
|
Cheers David-how about it then a thread along the lines John suggests?Are you up for it?
Hi again John-wow-! I missed that tit bit somehow.I think I can guess who the two well dressed men were!
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 7:24 am: |
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Hi Jeffrey and David,thought you might enjoy this snippet on the continuing adventures of the Hambros: The Independent,10th August 2004
Clementine Hambro,a bridesmaid at the wedding of Charles and Diana,is now the proud owner of a tattoo of a cat on her bottom.[probably the closest she"ll ever get to possessing something along the lines of Catherine Eddowes!]Actually it seems to be some new tactic by the"well bred" to reclaim some of the ground lost to celebrity Royalty such as David Beckham-one rich young lord has had the family crest stencilled on his backside!
Best Wishes Natalie |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 435
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 10:35 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
Gee, the information of the latest folly of the rich and brainless is "quaint". The business about the family crest gives a whole new meaning to the movie title, "BEND IT LIKE BECKHAM"!
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 299
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 9:10 pm: |
|
Hi All,
I have always been under the impression that King's Bench Walk was simply chambers (or offices) for barristers. However whilst trying to check some other details of Harold Nicolson, whose connection with Dr. Stowell has recently been discussed on another thread, I found that between 1929-1945 Harold Nicolson and his wife Vita Sackville West had a flat (apartment) at No. 4 Kings Bench Walk.
It is probably no more than coincidence, but I thought it worth mentioning.
Regards
John Savage |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3738
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 4:45 am: |
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Hi John
Unless renumbering occurred during the intervening 70 years, this was the sort of thing they were getting.
"TIMES" Feb 24th 1859
At one time in the LVP the address was possibly used as a base for cheque fraud!
During the period 1929 - 45 several people seem to have used the address, including one Norman Angell who was a prolific "Times" letter writer.
In 1945 Nicolson wrote a letter from the address, on the prospects for Greece.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 300
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
Many thankks for that extra information. It looks to me more probable that MJD could have resided at King's Bench Walk.
By the way, is that Times web site open again?
Regards
John Savage |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3751
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
|
John have emailed you.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1379
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 4:09 pm: |
|
Hi All-some rather random thoughts:
Mildmays---Racing horse owners!
Gladstone ,Anderson[at one time anyway]Druitt[at University anyway]Liberals.
Disraeli---responsible for turning the Tory party from the party of "landowners" into the party of International Finance.His European political ally was Bismarck and his friends were the big bankers like Rothschilds and Hambros.
Virginia Wolf.Founder of the Bloomsbury set.A liberal politically and[think I am right here]cousin to Victoria Sackville West.Cousin also to JK Stephens.
JK Stephens,a barrister like Druitt.Did they know each other?It would be useful to find out.
Despite his upper middle class credentials Druitt
seems to me to have been a bit of an outsider here amongst the bankers and financiers named above.
Last but not least there is a connection to Gull here through the brother of his son in law who also had rooms at Kings Bench Walk.
Natalie
|
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 301
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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Hi Natalie,
Are you sure Virginia Woolf was the cousin of Vita Sackville West?
The two of them had an affair and of course that doesn't rule out being "kissing cousins" but I can find no trace of their being related.
Regards
John Savage |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1385
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 2:20 pm: |
|
Hi John,I think I am wrong and that it was Vanessa Bell and Virginia Woolf who were both the cousins of JK Stephens.Both these women were members of the Bloomsbury set and quite frankly there were some very odd goings on one way and another.They all had a penchant for taking all their clothes off and having photos taken of themselves dancing in circles in genteel fashion.Several members committed suicide leading one to think that there was more than a bit of mental instability among them peppered with a great deal of self indulgence by the sound of it!
Natalie |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 546
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
Just a slight correction. Disraeli actually rebuilt the Tory Party by incorporating into it the Middle Classes - he is responsible for the second great election reform bill of the 19th Century, that of 1867. The first (pushed by Earl Grey in 1832) ended many corrupt practices such as the use of "rotten boroughs" that had representatives in Parliament but lacked real population. Disraeli's expanded the electorate to include most of the middle class. Gladstone created the third great reform bill of 1885, which expanded the electorate to include the working classes.
As for the connection with Bismarck, he and Disraeli just demonstrated a remarkable grasp on realpolitik in 1878, when they jointly chaired the Congress of Berlin: their actions restrained problems in the Balkans and Eastern Europe (especially between Russia and the Ottoman Empire) until about 1912. Unfotunately the quality of European statesmen of wisdom had declined markedly by 1912.
Disraeli did work closely with the Rothschilds. They financed his cornering of the Suez Canal shares in 1875.
Vanessa Bell was Virginia Woolf's cousin. The leading figures in the Bloomsbury Group were Woolf, Lytton Strachey, Duncan Grant, John Maynard Keynes, and Bertrand Russell.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3776
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 2:58 am: |
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Hi Jeff, Natalie
I thought that Disraeli was the man who brought the urban working-class into the voting system, Gladstone doing the same later for the rural working-class.
But of course, the landowning interest remained, and still remains, prominent in the Tory party.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1392
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 4:10 pm: |
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Thanks for all the info Jeff.Oh Disraeli was a brilliant politician alright.Dont dispute that.
Very interested[and not at all surprised to know] that Bertrand Russell was actually a member of this libidinous group.Must look up his autobiography-he had a lot of rather unkind things to say about these erstwhile friends of his particularly one of his lovers,Lady Ottoline Morrell[or Lady Utterly Immoral as Private eye nicknamed her].He thought she looked very like a racehorse.Charming lot. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 549
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 10:00 pm: |
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Hi Robert and Natalie,
On Disraeli, he does get some urban working class into his 1867 reform bill, but it principally aimed at the middle class. Gladstone pushed for blue collar and farming class voters. Ironically (as Disraeli probably guessed when he considered it) Gladstone's 1885 reform opened the doors for the Labour Party to eventually overtake and replace Gladstone's Liberal Party as the Tories main opponents. However, it took nearly forty seven eight years for that to happen.
Bloomsbury was an interesting group, and it had sattlelite members. Victoria Sackville-West was connected to it through her relationship with Virginia Woolf, as was Harold Nicholson. There was some contact (via Woolf again) with her rival and friend Katherine Mansfield (although Mansfield's early death prevented this from developing very far). The art critic Roger Fry was also an occasional contact.
There is an interesting sidelight about Victoria Sackville West and the year 1888. She was a young girl at the time, but her father was Sir Lionel Sackville-West, British ambassador to the U.S. In 1888 there was a Presidential election, with the incumbent Grover Cleveland running for re-election). Cleveland, although a Democrat, was a very successful and popular reform President, and was supposedly in the lead. The Republicans nominated Benjamin Harrison, a Civil War General and former Senator (and grandson of the 9th President, William Henry Harrison).
In 1884, Cleveland won the close election for the Presidency when his rival, James G. Blaine, failed to condemn a slur against the Irish voters
(the infamous "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion" quote) that a stupid Blaine supporter said before reporters in New York City. The Republicans decided to even this out in 1888. A Republican wrote a letter to Sir Lionel, asking him his opinion on which of the two candidates (Cleveland or Harrison) would be the better one for Anglo-American relations. Sir Lionel, instead of remaining neutral, sent a reply that Cleveland was far more friendly to England than Harrison. The Republicans published Sir Lionel's reply. Cleveland was furious, and gave Sir Lionel back his diplomatic papers (i.e. - he was telling the diplomat he was no longer welcome as Ambassador from Britain). Cleveland won the popular vote in 1888, but lost the election in the electoral college to Harrison (a situation similar to that of George W. Bush beating Al Gore four years ago). In 1892, however, Cleveland ran for a third time, and beat Harrison.
Lord Salsbury was not happy about Cleveland's reaction to the blunder of Sir Lionel (he thought he overreacted). So he refused to send a new ambassador to Washington until after March 4, 1889 (inauguration day back then) when the new ambassador would be presented to President Harrison. Ironically, despite Sir Lionel's boosterism for Cleveland as a friend to Great Britain, in Cleveland's second administration (1893 - 1897) the U.S. and Britain almost went to war over a violation of the Monroe Doctrine concerning the borders of Venezuela and British Guiana (now Guyana).
Jeff |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 763
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
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Here are recent photos I took of no. 9 King's Bench walk, where Montague Druitt had chambers in 1888. The second photo is taken almost directly in front of no. 9. The square looks much the same as it must have in 1888.
Andy S.
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Uriah Hexam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 9:28 am: |
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In John Ruffels wonderfully informative posting listing some of the other barristers and solicitors at No. 9 King's Bench Walk, he lists a gentleman by the name of Arthur Watkin Williams Wynn. I wonder if the aforementioned barrister is any relation to Watkins Wynn William, the grandson of Sir Charles Warren, who is cited in Howell and Skinner's "The Ripper Legacy?" The names are extremely similar, to be sure. |
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