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John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 88
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 8:16 pm: |       |
Hi Jeffrey,
I was interested in the reference to Sir Frederick Weld and the following ninformation may be of some interest:
Frederick Aloysius Weld was born into a landed catholic family on 9th. May 1823 at Chiedeock (pronounced "chiddick") Dorset. He emigrated to New Zealand and became involved in politics later becoming Prime Minister of New Zealand, Governor of Tasmania, and Govenor of the Straits Settlement (?Singapore). He was knighted in 1880 and returned to England 1887. He died at Bridport Dorset in 1891. The Weld family still exist in Dorset.
Now forgive me for going off at a tangent, but also in the same family was one Joseph Weld 1777 - 1863, he became the senior partner in a firm of Solicitors called Witham Weld. In the 1997 edition of Butterworth's Law Directory are listed two partners, Charles Edmund Bellord, and Nicolas Jerome Bellord. The Firm of Witham Weld specializes in work for charities, many of them Catholic. The interesting thing is that during his lifetime the solicitor Edmund Bellord (1858 - 1926) was chairman of the committee of the Providence Row Night Refuge, and was of course mentioned in Joseph Sickerts story as the connection between Whitechapel and Cleveland Street.
I suppose it is nothing more than a coincidence, but could Edmund Bellord have known Montague Druit?
Regards,
John Savage |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 135
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 10:41 pm: | |
Hi John,
The history of New Zealand never fails to fascinate me when I come across it. The founder of the colony is Edward Gibbon Wakefield, who was
a relative of the historian of Rome, and who spent a small term in Newgate prison in the late
1820s for abducting an heiress. Wakefield came up with the idea of encouraging middle class immigrants to New Zealand, as opposed to that
riffraff from prison that was transported to the
Australian colonies. Nice guy this Wakefield.
I happen to have a biography of Wakefield, THE
AMAZING CAREER OF EDWARD GIBBON WAKEFIELD, by
A.J.Harrop (London: George Allen & Unwin, 1928).
It mentions an "F.A.Weld" twice (in it's index)
on pages 171 and 180, when dealing with Wakefield's fight (in the 1850s) to get the British Government to pass an act granting New
Zealand self government. Weld helped draft the
legislation, but it remained a difficult transition. In May 1854 he was a member of the
transitional council set up by Wakefield and his
supporters, as a step towards Parliamentary government (but which also included loyalists who
considered the transitional council as only an
advisory group to the Governor - not as a cabinet). That is all that I could glean about
Weld - not much. The Encyclopedia Britannica (11th edition) in it's articles on New Zealand and
Tasmania had nothing about Weld. Weld had no individual biography in the encyclopedia. My
guess is he was a worthy man, but of minor calibre.
I also looked at a book about another figure who
played a role in New Zealand. THE HERO AS MURDERER: THE LIFE OF EDWARD JOHN EYRE by Geoffrey
Dutton (Cheshire, England: Collins, 1967). Eyre
was Lieutenant Governor of New Zealand in the late
1840s and early 1850s. There was no reference to
Weld there at all.
Possibly if some decent history of New Zealand can be found more of Weld's background may be made
known.
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 126
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 8:35 am: | |
Jeff,
If you want to learn more about SIR FREDERICK WELD
of Chideock Manor, Dorset, you should be able to discover quite a bit about him from Burke's Peerage, or Debretts.
He was Governor of the Straits Settlement (Singapore), Tasmania, Western Australia (where there is still a crusty gentleman's club called the Weld Club) and, Prime Minister of New Zealand.
His daughter Christina married Montague Druitt's brother, Captain Edward Druitt, R.E.,on the 19th February, 1889.
For full details see the English publication: THE CATHOLIC WHO'S WHO (1908).
You see, Edward Druitt converted to Catholicism in 1887, and , in fact, the guest list at his wedding read like nearly every entry in the CATHOLIC WHO'S WHO!!
Apart from a couple of wedding gifts sent, no member of the Druitt family attended to support Edward. This possibly, suggests that Edward's staunchly Masonic and Anglican family did not approve of his conversion to the Catholic faith.
And, in addition, this might suggest that Montague did not confide in his closest younger brother in his difficult times.
The Welds were a notable Dorset Catholic family related to the Vaughans, and providing several High Sheriffs for the county. Lulworth was another Weld seat. |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 127
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 8:44 am: | |
Chris Scott,
Once again I have provided misleading information concerning William Druitt's guest for the Canford Ball in December, 1888.
It was NOT Robert Ball, but RICHARD BALL. Sorry.
The Solicitor's partner in London was listed as RICHARD FRANCIS BALL, in, I think, Kellys Directory.
I will have to marinate my postings overnight.
I am firing too many hip-shots. |
John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 4:44 pm: | |
Hi Jeffrey,
Some good information there about Sir Frederick Weld from John Ruffles.
The following from The Catholic Who's Who & Directory 1910 may be of interest.
"The Welds claim adescent from Edric "The Wild", a cousin of King Harold. A William Weld was Sheriff of London in 1353; another went with Henry V to Harfeur, while shortly after the accession of James I Sir Humphrey Weld became Lord Mayor of London. His g-s bought Lulworth Castle about 1641, and Humphrey, the 2nd owner, lost his Governorship of Portland over the Oates Plot. His descendant, Thomas, was the founder of the Chideock branch of the family."
Further sources are:
Australian Dictionary of Dates and Men of The Time - 1879
The Dictionary of Australian Biography 1892
and Boase, whic I reproduce below, all my references being from the British Biographical Index.
Regards
John Savage |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 128
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 6:44 am: | |
And finally, lest people search the CATHOLIC WHO'S WHO for Edward Druitt's wedding guest-list;
as the result of my ambiguous entry above;
the actual newspaper report of the Weld-Druitt wedding appears in the SOMERSETSHIRE GAZETTE of 21 February, 1889. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 137
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 9:25 pm: | |
Hi John,
I don't know when I will be able to get to the 42nd Street Library again, but I have found one of those "Six Degrees of Seperation" incidents that run rampant through history. Although to be fair the two pivotal figures never met.
I have to explain that I am constantly looking into certain homicide cases (mostly Victorian) that have been under - examined, besides the big one of Whitechapel. So for many years I accumulate material, hoping to eventually put it into narrative form.
Therefore, I find that I did have a small bridge of information under my nose. It wasn't until you put in that biographic entry of Boase's about
Sir Frederick that I looked into it.
I once read, for research purposes, a book called
THE HISTORY OF TASMANIA....by James Fentan. There is a copy at the 42nd Street Library.
I was interested in an official figure there, connected to one of those Victorian Murders I study. I find that I copied the pages before the entrance of this figure in the book. On page 403 it says:
"Governor Weld retired from the administration of Tasmania on 6 May 1880. He proceeded at once, by way of Melbourne, to Singapore, to fill his new appointment as Governor of the Straits Settlements. He received the honour of Knighthood for his past services."
"Sir Francis Smith acted as Administrator of the Government from Mr. Weld's departure until the
arrival of Lieutenant-General, Sir John H. Lefroy - a period of nearly seven months."
General Lefroy was not actually appointed Governor, but only Administrator of Tasmania until the actual Royal Governor (Sir George Cumine Stratham, K.C.M.G.)who had been appointed
Governor. In the massive bureaucratic confusion of the British Empire of 1880-81, Stratham, previously Governor of the Leeward Islands, had been sent to be acting Governor of Cape Colony after the then Governor, Sir Bartle Freer left, until the actual new Governor there, Sir Hercules Robinson, arrived. So Stratham was not expected in Hobart, Tasmania until December 1881. Therefore General Lefroy, a former Governor of
Bermuda, was officially sent as Administrator of
Tasmania until Stratham left Cape Town in the
hands of Robinson...sort of like musical chairs, isn't it?
Lefroy did not reach Hobart until October 21, 1880, meaning that for six months and a half the
"Acting" Administrator was Sir Francis Smith.
Sir John Lefroy would stay in his post as Administrator of Tasmania until November 25, 1881. On December 7, 1881 Stratham finally landed in Hobart.
Sir John was well liked, and left Tasmania with the affections of the public. However, he left under a personal cloud. It seems his godson was
being hanged in England in November 1881. His
godson was Percy Lefroy Mapleton.
Odd to think that two such curious figures of tragedy of the 1880s, as Lefroy and Druitt, almost touched through third parties...in of all places, Tasmania.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 95
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 6:19 am: | |
Hi Jeffrey,
What a way to run an Empire.
I was just commenting to Chris Scott, on another thread, about these spooky coincidences that often crop up when studying JTR.
Regards,
John Savage |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 167
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 12:50 pm: | |
MJD's last movements are rather mysterious. It's always bothered me a little that he bought a ticket to Hammersmith, but his body was found upstream in Chiswick. Did this particular railroad track extend to Chiswick or was Hammersmith the end of the line for Monty?(no pun intended) If the body floated a little down the Thames, as one might expect, perhaps Richmond or somewhere close by was his final destination. In the 1891 census I found a nest of respectable "Druetts" living in a place called The Peldon in Richmond. [It might read 'Druitt' but looks more like 'Druett'---it might be worth a look in the 1881 census.]
County: Surrey
Civil Parish: Richmond
ED: 22
Druett (?) Mary Jane, age 35
Albert, age 27
Archibald, age 26
Charles R, age 23 [born: Dorset (Weymouth)]
Ann (Grandmother) age 93.
Speculatively yours, RJP
|
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 107
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 5:51 pm: | |
Very interesting. On a modern A-Z, there is Peldon Passage and Peldon Court, both within walking distance (~ 10 mins) of Richmond Station. MJD could have gone to Hammersmith and then changed for Richmond in 1888, but perhaps he would have bought a through ticket for Richmond if that was his intention?
I can't find these Druitts/Druetts in 1881 or FreeBMD, though. Are birthplaces given for any of the other members of the family?
Chris Phillips
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 138
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 11:14 pm: | |
Hi John,
These "Six Degrees of Seperation" coincidences are not so hard to believe when one keeps one feature in the back of one's mind - every being with the gifts of communication, action, and social intercourse that we are fully aware of as
being real has lived as a homo sapien or lower life form on one planet in the universe. Since we have only been aware of life on one planet in
all history, such coincidences were doomed to take place at any given time. It would truly be weird if life forms from opposite ends of the universe somehow were thrown together at some time. Still as potential contacts between different people, peoples, or groups it is worth to always look for these "six degree" situations.
Let me give another example to illustrate this
point. When the Titanic sank, among those lost were William Stead, Clarence Bloomfield Moore (no
relative), and William Clinch Smith. Stead was a famous journalist, reformer, and spiritualist. Moore and Smith were prominent socialites. Stead,
in his career as editor of the PALL MALL GAZETTE,
had championed Mrs. Langworthy (who had been shabbily treated by her husband in their seperation and divorce), and murder defendant Israel Lipski. Moore had watched while his mother invested thousands of dollars in the "inventions" of John Worley Keeley, a con-man who claimed he found a new energy source in vibrations (after his mother and Keeley died, Moore uncovered the proof of Keeley's frauds: he
used compressed air to move his machines). Moore also helped interview Devil Anse Hatfield of the
Hatfield-McCoy feud in 1889. Clinch Smith was the
brother-in-law of prominent architect Stamford
White, and was a witness at White's murder in
the old Madison Square Garden by Harry K. Thaw in
1906. Now, all three men had known figures of
scandal and notoriety in their lives. Were they
aware during the Titanic's voyage of these stories
in each other's lives? I find it hard to believe
so. Stead's career might have been best known to
the world of the three, but his own brush with the
law, in his THE MAIDEN TRIBUTE OF BABYLON campaign of 1885 was better known in 1912 than his
championing Lipski (dead a quarter century in that same year) or Mrs. Langworthy. Clinch Smith was prominent in New York City society, while Moore was known in social circles in Philadelphia,
Baltimore, and Washington. In short, they probably did not have much in common with each other during the voyage - and maybe even less as
the ship sank. Moreover they were only three of the 1,513 victims on the ship. I am sure the others had their brushes with fame and infamy too.
In such a large crowd of people (and the crowd swells to 2200 when you add the survivors to it)
many strands of history would have interlocked.
But that doesn't mean their was any meaningful
interaction between the strands.
On a thread on this Board recently someone commented on Montague Williams knowing the theory about the Porturguese seaman suspects. Well, in
1888 Williams was a London magistrate, but he had
been a leading barrister of his period before his
appointment. His best recalled cases were Dr. George Henry Lamson (1882), and a year earlier
Percy Lefroy Mapleton (1881). But as he was a
well known figure in the London legal world of 1888, why shouldn't he suddenly be given word of a serious theory concerning the identity of several people considered as jointly being the most notorious killer of the period? It would have been more curious if he had remarked (in his book MORE LEAVES FROM A LIFE) that he was interested in the killings and the mystery, but nobody thought it worthwhile to talk to him about it.
That Weld and General Lefroy had personal contacts with figures of tragedy in two famous
crimes of the 1880s is notable, but keep this in
mind: In 1881, Percy Lefroy Mapleton murdered
Mr. Gold on the Brighton Railroad, thus casting a
degree of unhappiness on his notable godfather.
But in 1881, Sir Frederick A. Weld would (if he
knew the Druitts at all) not have been saddened by the death of Montague - Monty was alive and
thriving in 1881! In 1888, Sir Frederick was
more interested in Captain Edward Druitt, not
Monty, and would have been upset about Monty's death only if there were...questions about the
cause of the suicide. "Unsound mind" covered a
multitude of problems - and not necessarily a set
of currently unsolved murders in the East End.
As for Percy Mapleton, in 1888 he'd be dead seven
years, and the General would have been dead one
year. General Lefroy would not be around to know
of the Whitechapel Case, or about the suicide of
Montague Druitt.
I hate to burst bubbles, but when dealing with the
"Six Degree" theory, one has to make sure that it
actually has a relevance that can be documented.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 129
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 6:56 am: | |
I agree with you Jeff regarding coincidence; it makes mischief for us all. But spices life up as well.
Regarding the Druetts discovered at Richmond downstream from Montague's last breathing-place, if you consult the Druitt genealogy cited elsewhere on Casebook , and posted in detail by Stephen P Ryder, you will discover the very earliest Druitts came to England from France.
One of the earliest, a physician, was named "Phillipe Druette". He began the three-hundred year old family tradition in medicine.
The Australian branch still possess a silhouette of Phillipe (they think) and his original scalpel box and herb drawers.
The fact R.J.Palmers 'Druett' hailed from Dorset suggests a distant relationship to Montague's family.
Hello R.J.Palmer,
I too have wondered if the location where Montague's body was recovered would have been the exact spot he jumped in.
I wondered if local experts have developed a formula for deducing the "entry point" for those "found drowned" in the Thames of 1888? |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 168
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 10:19 am: | |
Hello. Here's further details of the Druetts from Richmond.
Mary Jane, 35, born Middlesex, Brentford
Albert E., 27, born London, Lambeth
Archibald, 26, born London, Camberwell
Charles R., 23, born Dorset, Weymouth
Ann, 93, born Leicestershire, Hinckley
Albert is listed as an accountant's clerk, the other two brothers as banker's clerks.
Even if this is 'a bust'--as it very well might be-- I still rather think there must be some Druitt connection to Chiswick/Kew or environs. Surely it's no coincidence MJD's mother also ended up there? |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 598
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 4:07 pm: | |
The same family are indeed listed in the 1881 census
Address:
1 Peldon, Richmond, Surrey
Head:
Francis W Druett
Aged 32 born London E.C.
Railway Clerk
Wife:
Mary Jane Druett
Aged 25 born Brentford, Middx
Dressmaker
Others:
Albert E Druett (brother of Francis)
Aged 17 born Stamford, Middx
Clerk (L&SW Railway)
Archibald D Druett (brother of Francis)
Aged 16 born Camberwell
Clerk (Bankers Det)
Ann Druett (Grandmother of Francis)
Aged 80 born Hinckley, Leicester
Lydia A Graves (Boarder)
Aged 48 born Canterbury, Kent
Annuitant
Chris |
John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 96
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
Hi Jeffrey,
Thank you for those facinating details. I sometimes find that coincidences in the JTR case, whilst not proving anything, are worth keeping in mind for future reference because they do sometimes give the opportunity to open up new avenues of research. There is of course no guarantee that they will ever prove anything, and usually that is the case; but I do beleive the only way to uncover new material is to sometimes wander down unexplored avenues to see were they lead.(if only into a fog).
I am sure Sir Frederick Weld has no connection to the case, but at least we have learnt a little more about him and who knows, one day he might lead us somewhere.
R.J. Palmer
You make a good point about assuming that Montague Druitt entered the Thames at Hammersmith, just because he was found near there, and with a railway ticket.
The Thames is a tidal river at that point and given the time he had been in the water, with tidal streams running at 2.5-3knots if he had gone in at Hammersmith I think he could have drifted as far as Richmond to the West or even Westminster to the east. Alas of course we shall probably never know.
Regards,
John Savage |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 346
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:36 am: | |
Hi, Jeff et al.:
Jeff, I agree with you that apparent coincidences in the Ripper case can get us carried away. When we consider that genteel Victorian society was a relatively narrow circle, it's not surprising that the Druitts or any other family might be connected with other famous or not so famous families and individuals. It does seem that Druitt apparently is the one suspect though about whom this name game is played, with the possible exception of J. K. Stephen and Prince Albert Victor.
In the matter of where Druitt went into the river, I should think it's probable that threw himself into the river west of Chiswick, possibly at Richmond, and the body had worked its way downstream.
All the best
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 603
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 2:45 pm: | |
After long searching I have managed to find a picture of the Thorneycroft Shipyard and Torpedo Works at Chiswick.
Also found these odd comments about the history of the works on that site:
By this time Sir John Thorneycroft had opened his world-famous engineering and boat building business to the West of the Church which led to the building of 25 torpedo boats for the Royal Navy in 1885,exports orders all over the world, most notably to Japan where they played a critical role in the sinking of the Russian Fleet in the Russo-Japanese War. Chiswick's torpedo boats may well have hastened the Russian Revolution and other great events of the 20th century!
Thorneycroft, a ship building company, was established in Chiswick in 1864. They built steam launches, river steamers, torpedo boats and destroyers, but were forced to move to Southampton in 1904 as ships became too large to move out of the Chiswick site.
|
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 604
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 2:48 pm: | |
And here is an aerial shot of the stretch of the Thames where Druitt would have been found (source is Cities Revealed)
 |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 607
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 3:12 pm: | |
I found out some info about Henry Winslade, the man who found Druitts body. He is in the 1881 census as follows:
Address:
4 Gladstone Cottages
Short Street
Chiswick
Head:
James Winslade aged 50 born Chiswick
Waterman
Wife:
Mary Winslade aged 48 born Rayburgh, Essex
Son:
Henry Winslade aged 21 born Chiswick
Waterman
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 833
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 10:39 am: | |
Stephen
In the back ground pictures which show on each Casebook page, the one of Druitt shows also the text of his suicide message. Where did the handwriting come from? I have never seen any info that the suicide note was retained or still extant and just wondered where this handwritten section was taken from
All the best
Chris
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2269
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 12:09 pm: | |
Hi all
Re Richard Francis Ball, there was a Richard F Ball in the 1891 census, born Cheshire, living at 156, High St, Epping, Essex, age 35, solicitor. He
is listed in the 1881 census as a solicitor living in Chigwell, Essex, and having a solicitor and a barrister as visitors.
Robert |
Jason Scott Mullins
Inspector
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 158
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 1:52 pm: | |
Good question Chris!! Where did that jpg come from Stephen?
crix0r |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 703
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 10:04 am: | |
Hi, all
Great shot of the Thames at Chiswick, Chris Scott, and that is an excellent question about the writing in the background picture of Druitt. I had also wondered about it and have been meaning to ask Stephen since I first saw it. I may be wrong here, but I think Mr. Ryder might be using a bit of webmaster's license here, am I right?
All the best
Chris |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 165
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 3:29 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
Some very interesting information there about Thorneycroft Torpedo Works, and the waterman Winslade. However the black and white picture you have posted appears to me to have mountains in the background, are you sure this is Chiswick?
Best Regards
John Savage |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 705
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
. . . Yep, John, could be that's a photo of Thorneycroft-built boats up in Norway or somewhere. Do I hear a Norwegian blue pining somewhere?  |
|
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