| Author |
Message |
    
Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 4:07 pm: |       |
Hello all,
I don't know if this photograph has been the subject of discussion before but I was looking through the Hulton on-line archive site, typed Spitalfields into the search box and this little beauty appeared.
It is dated 11 June 1928 and states:
Construction workers lay the foundation of the new Sale Room at Spitalfields Market in east London.
After checking my facts on this site, the dates correspond exactly with the demolition of the North side of Dorset street.
Furthermore,in the background can be seen the trees from the Christchurch gardens.
Now this is the tempting bit, look at the centre of the picture and you can see a small 2 floor outhouse with a sloping room butted onto the main building. It looks in the right position for #13 and 20 Millers Court.
I have labelled the 2nd photograph for easier viewing but I would welcome someone to give their opinion on this subject.
The second photograph follows in a separate post.
Regards,
Greg
 |
greghutton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 4:56 pm: | |
Hi again,
as promised, here is the second photograph with labelling. I hope you can all see what I can see.
Regards,
Greg |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2980
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 5:35 pm: | |
Hi Greg -
Excellent find! I'm not sure whether or not we can verify this as being Miller's court, though certainly looking at a map of the area the pieces do seem to fit. If what you suggest is true then it would seem the building behind (or in the photo, above) what you marked as Mary's room would be the Britannia Public House (click for an image) - it was demolished in 1929. It does seem to fit there as well, compared to the photo - a three story building with numerous rectangular windows.
Below is a section of map which would show the general p.o.v. of the photo in question. It is from the new ripperArt Whitechapel Map, by the way, which I find eminently useful. 
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 210
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 1:30 pm: | |
Hi Greg
Thanks for posting that picture.
This is a map from 1913 (Millers Court marked in red)
As you can see New Court corresponds nicely, but there is another court, right next to Millers Court, and this might be the one you marked in the photo. With Millers Court on the other side of the wall? It looks to me as if the building may have already been demolished, but I wouldn't swear to it. The building Stephen mentions might be 'The Britannia' looks to me to be on the South side of the street, might just be my eyesight.
I tried to match some of the buildings in the photo to the map, but they didn't seem to be in the place you would expect them to be.
A more detailed photo might tell us once and for all.
All the best
Rob
P.S. why don't you register. It would get your posts through quicker. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 708
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 2:56 pm: | |
Hi,
A fascinating picture, one can almost feel the atmosphere, just by looking ,I Believe that the gangers of the site[ foreman] actually sold pieces of brick ,and rubble of number 13, to intrested parties, it would be intresting to clarify for certain , the actual site.
Richard. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 459
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 5:33 am: | |
If you look just to the right (in the picture) of where Greg says Miller's court is, there is a wall painted white with a door in it, and to the right of this appears to be a passage through the building. This is plainly not Mary's room unless the windows etc had been moved, so it would appear to me to be the entrance to the next court along, not named on either of the maps above. That would mean that Greg's assessment of where Miller's Court was would be about correct. Great photo. |
Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 4:30 pm: | |
Hi all,
looking at the photograph, the large building behind the marked Millers Court site looks to be the very large building as plotted on the two maps provided by Stephen and Robert.If you look at the plot size of the buildings on either side of Millers court, they correspond with the photograph almost exactly!
Regards,
Greg.
The letter to register was posted this morning. |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 9:05 am: | |
Great photo Gregg.
But what I think we are seeing here, is the demolition of the North side of Brushfeild Street, the next street up from Dorset Street.
I think that the large building centre is indeed the Britannia, which to me is not in the right position, for the street in question to be Dorset Street.
The Britannia needs to be farther left of where it is in the picture, i.e. in line with the supposed marking of Dorset Street for this picture to ring true.
What I'm saying is that the Britannia looks to be too far South,(to the right), for the street in question to be Dorset Street.
Does that make sense?
|
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 781
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:59 am: | |
Greg,
Just wanted to say great work Bub.
I find these photos fanscinating to look at.
Monty
|
Adam Wood
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
Nice find Greg. I think there's some confusion over the position of the Britannia, however, which I hope the annotated photo below will clear up. The windows of the Britannia wouldn't be visible from this angle, as it's two sides were away from camera. If you look at the photo of Commercial Street/the Britannia, you can see a taller building on the opposite corner of Dorset Street with the word 'EXPORT' painted on. This building would have had a windowed side on Dorset Street, which I believe is the building shown in Greg's photo. The chimneys of the Britannia can be seen from the reverse angle.
Adam
 |
Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:01 pm: | |
Hi Cludgy,
can you mark on a map where you think the position of the camera was? If Christ church spire was visable it would confirm the whole aspect of the scene. However, if I understand correctly the spire would be visable in the distance from anywhere near Spitalfields market.
P.S. I don't think it is the Britannia pub, it could be the building on the South side of Dorset street or as I said before the next door building to 26 Dorset street.
Can anyone else see the archway with a window above the door to 13 Millers Court?
Regards,
Greg |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2984
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:14 pm: | |
Hi Adam -
Good point, I believe you may be right in pinpointing the correct location of the Britannia. In the photo of the Britannia/Commercial Street, the "Export" building appears to be at least one story taller than the Britannia, and this merges nicely with the new photo above.
Good eyes, Adam! 
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper |
Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:44 pm: | |
Hi Adam,
great spot, that clinches it for me, Millers Court it is.
Regards,
Greg |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:29 pm: | |
Greg my apoligies.
On second thoughts, the buildings behind the Britannia are clearly seen in the photo, these are marked on the map.
The demolished area is to the immediate right of these buildings, so does indeed seem to be the area which includes Dorset Street.
The only thing I can think of as to why the Britannia looks to far to the right, could be due to the fact that Dorset street dosn't run due East, West, but runs down at an angle. |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 8:57 am: | |
Adam.
Quite right in identifying the location of the Britannia, and Export House
The building which I initially identified as the Briannia, has windows on It's North side, but if you look at the map The Britania has windows only on It's East and South sides. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1184
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 2:05 pm: | |
Great photos and an intriguing discussion, guys. As a local historian I love this kind of stuff. And as Richard puts it, one can almost feel the atmosphere.
I wish we could have more of this on the web forum.
I believe you are right in your final estimations of the location of Britannia and Miller's Court -- works for me.
Adam or Greg,
Would it be possible for any of you to insert a blow-up from any of the pictures of the area around the alleged Miller's Court? It is a bit hard to see the details.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden  |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 923
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 5:15 pm: | |
Hi Glenn
Here is the section you wanted
Chris |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1187
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 6:08 pm: | |
Thanks Chris.
Looks like it would need some processing through Photoshop, though. It is rather blurry.
My main concern is exactly which part of those lower houses in the yard that is 13 Miller's Court (because there seem to be two, possibly with an opening between them). Is it the one with the corner to the far left of the opening gap, or is it the one to the right, with the high-lighted gable? I would bet on the first one, but I am not sure.
Unfortunately one can't see the dispositions of the windows or other characteristic details.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Greg Hutton
Police Constable
Username: Greg
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 7:06 am: | |
Hi Glenn,
It's the left one as marked on the photo below |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1192
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 8:34 am: | |
Hi Greg,
Thank you. That's what I thought, since the archade and the narrow alley probably is situated to the right of the corner by the arrow. It makes sense.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 924
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 11:43 am: | |
Interesting stuff- the only problem I have with the identification of this building as Miller's Court is that the section arrowed above is obviously at least a three storey, if not a four storey building with what is called ,I believe, a "hipped" roof and attic windows.
All references I have seen to the buildings in Miller's Court say they are simple two storey buildings (compare the illustration below)
Chris
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 12:03 pm: | |
Hmmm, interesting, Chris. You may have a point. Unless there was built a third storey added to it in later years, after 1888. That is at least quite a common occurrence here at home one bumps into during local history studies, also on very old and shabby buildings.
But are you sure the buildings on the photo can't pass for a two-storey building? I am really not certain. That is why I would have liked to see the disposition of the windows.
Better check that out and see what the known photos of Miller's Court say...
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on February 28, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 925
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 12:03 pm: | |
My apologies for the above post which is in error!
After posting I remembered seeing an illustration of the front of Miller's Coiurt from Dorset Street - I have tracked this down - it was in the Penny Illustrated of 17 November and this indeed shows the building that fronted on to Dorset Street to be three storey topped with a "hipped" roof, very much as in the photo about which this thread is concerned.
Glad to put the record straight
Chris
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1197
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 12:07 pm: | |
Ah! OK Chris. I thought so. Well, we cracked that one, then.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 926
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 12:08 pm: | |
Incidentally the illustration in the Penny Illustrated as mentioned above also includes a view down Miller's Court away from Kelly's room which may be of interest
Chris
 |
