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Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 10:17 am: | 
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Hi Sarah.
Can’t see the link between the fact that because there were few murders in the area, the cry of "murder", would be an odd cry.
“Murder”, surely, or perhaps “Help”, is what people shout when being attacked, what else would they cry?
Remember, as Leanne pointed out, the agenda of the day was ” Murder”
The area, to quote one newspaper, was in the grips of “A reign of terror”.
I think it would be quite natural to cry “Murder”, if you were a woman being attacked on the streets of Spitalfields, at that time. In this case of course the attack was indoors.
Which leads me to the question of why these women took the risk of roaming the streets at such a late time of night.
Kelly, Cox, Prater, Lewis, all were guilty of this rash behaviour.
Alcohol I’m sure played a big part in their rash behaviour.
The unfortunates Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes of course, had no say in the matter, they were homeless, forced to roam the streets.
But Kelly had a choice, only Kelly herself can tell us why she decided to go out that night on a number of occasions. She was afraid of the Ripper, Barnet tells us this.
The cause of her unwise actions that night, as has been stated, could be due to the fact that she needed to earn some money to pay off the arrears to her rent.
Alex, sorry to go on, but Prater was corroborated, and as I said earlier there was no chance of Prater and Lewis to confer prior to their statements. Thus i think they are telling the truth.
Cludgy.
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Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 850
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:42 am: |
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Hi All,
A common expression here in the UK has always been (well, for the last fifty years at least) "Oh, the supermarket/the bus/the traffic/work/school was murder today".
The most trivial sounding difficulty or inconvenience can invoke the word. If Mary had ever come back to her room, with or without a customer in tow, and found herself locked out (because the door had not been left on the latch, and the only key was now missing), she might well have cried out "Oh murder!" in tipsy frustration - the equivalent of "Oh bother/bugger it", because she would then have to risk cutting her arms reaching through the window, or get someone to do the honours for her.
Just a suggestion that might explain the cry sounding like it came from the court.
I do now think Maxwell could easily have put two and two together and made five. When the local people first heard that one of the Miller's Court unfortunates, Mary Kelly, had become the latest ripper victim, it would have been very natural for everyone to feel caught up in the whole drama, and wonder if they had seen or heard anything connected with it.
Maxwell immediately thought back to that very morning, when she had talked to a woman she knew by sight (and possibly also by name - another Mary - but not necessarily), remarking on the fact that she was up and about unusually early (perhaps adding tactfully to herself, "for one such as yourself", aware that most of this 'class' of woman tended to sleep in late after long nights of business and booze).
It wouldn't have taken much imagination for Maxwell to convince herself that the woman she saw was the same one who was found murdered at 10.45.
There would have been no photos in the papers to tell her otherwise, and perhaps no way of knowing for certain that she had been mistaken. If she had bumped into the woman again within days or a couple of weeks, and realised her mistake, she may have felt too foolish to own up, and thought it wouldn't matter anyway, since her testimony had been discounted.
And the woman herself was probably feeling so poorly when 'Carrie' was trying to make conversation, that even if she learned afterwards about the account Mrs. Maxwell gave, it may never have dawned on her that she was the 'Mary' being confused with the murdered woman.
Love,
Caz
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AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 939
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:43 pm: |
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Caz
You missing your vocation here, you should be a politician.
So someone calls out ‘murder’ and you feel that they moaning about the fact that the door or window is inaccessible, or they late for the school run or something like that, but then they just happen to get sliced up so bad that nobody can tell whether she got two legs or four and her face mashed to oblivion and her guts are all over the wall and her tits on the table, but you telling me that she can’t get her key in the door?
With all due respect Caz, I think if Mary Kelly screamed ‘murder’ then she probably meant it, regardless of the time. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 861
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 5:15 am: |
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Yeah but AP, cries of "oh murder" were apparently so common that no one took any notice, even when the ripper was on the loose. So if they didn't think anyone was actually being murdered whenever they heard this common utterance, what did they think was happening? And what was usually happening to the person using the expression? You're not suggesting they were all being threatened at knife point every time, and being ignored every time, surely?
Isn't it a bit like 'cry wolf', Wolfy baby?
If you were one of the many common people who commonly used the everyday expression "oh murder" in that dreadful little corner of the world, it wouldn't lessen your chances of one day being murdered, would it?
Love,
Caz
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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 876
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 5:38 am: |
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I agree with Caz here. Since there were no recorded murders at all in 1887 in that area and no others than the "ripper murders" (including Smith, Tabram, etc. because they counted them in 1888) then people weren't being murdered left, right and centre and so the common cry of "Oh, Murder" must have meant something else most of the time.
Sarah |
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 361
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 5:49 am: |
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Except we don't know that the cry of "Oh, murder" was common in the 1880's. A pesky detail but a detail none the less.
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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 878
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 6:00 am: |
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Ally,
What do you mean? Elizabeth Prater said that this cry was common. Do you mean, she may have been lying or do you mean it may have only been common during 1888 and not before?
Sorry, was just confused.
Sarah |
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 362
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 6:31 am: |
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Sigh. We do not know if "Oh, Murder" was a common slang term for "Oh, bother" or "Oh, drat" in the 1880s. I would suspect not as Elizabeth Prater would probably have mentioned it in the inquest if it had been. She claimed that cries of murder were commonly heard in the street. Given that a large majority of prostitutes hung out there it might have been an attention getting device when one's customers got to rough. It does not mean that it was slang for "Oh bother".
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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 900
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 9:41 am: |
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Ally,
Thanks for explaning. I was just confused when you said we don't know that the cry of "Oh, murder" was common in the 1880's when it apparently was. Thanks for clearing that up.
The only thing that makes me think it could mean "Oh bother" or whatever is the presence of the "Oh" which to me sounds similar to the "Oh" in "Oh bother". Maybe the "Oh" was emitted because the woman had been startled, otherwise it doesn't make much sense.
Sarah |
Peter J. Tabord
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 6:35 am: |
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Didn't someone point out (probably on the old boards) that the conclusion that there were no murders in the area in 1887 was some kind of misinterpretation of the data? Anyone remember exactly?
Regards
Pete |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:22 am: |
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Sarah your'e not the only one who is confused, you wrote.
"I agree with Caz here. Since there were no recorded murders at all in 1887 in that area and no others than the "ripper murders" (including Smith, Tabram, etc. because they counted them in 1888) then people weren't being murdered left, right and centre and so the common cry of "Oh, Murder" must have meant something else most of the time".
Could you make yourself more clear please?
I think you mean that because murders were so uncommon in the area, a cry of "Murder", would be out of place there.
Thus I think you are saying that the cry, "Murder", was pure fiction in the minds of Prater and Lewis.
I don't quite follow that.
What, do you suggest, would a woman shout, if she was being attacked, at that time in that location?
I don't buy the fact that it was an expletive, used by someone in exasperation.
I think certain Anglo Saxon expletives, would be the chosen words of Mary Kelly, given the fact that she cut her hand on the window.
A confused Cludgy
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Edgar Hadley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:23 am: |
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Hi Ally,
I think the most important point here is not what phrase was heard by witnesses,but the way it was delivered.
A desparate scream from someone believing they are going to be murdered is completely different in tone and charachter from that of somebody sounding off because the are fed up about something.
The reason such outbursts were usually ignored
was because nothing of any consequence ever followed them.
I think that this particular cry was no different from the others,just another drunken prostitute with a rough customer.
After all nobody clamed that they heard a scream followed by a scuffling noise or a thud or anything of that nature.
Also,wounds such as scuffs to the back of Kelly's hand,nicks on her thum and on her forearms,strongly suggest that a struggle took place and therefore the noise would have been heard by Prater.
Best regards,
Edgar
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Busy Beaver
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 5:37 am: |
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Looking at the first Photograph of Mary Kelly, she must have dyed her hair to a deep auburn/brown colour before the murder. I am under the impression that blond hair does show up quite well in a black & white photograph. SO is this or is this not Mary Kelly?? Apologies if this has been brought up before. |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 158
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 8:34 pm: |
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Busy Beaver,
Being a photographer and having processed hundreds of rolls of BW film, blond hair can show up well in BW pics, but, a lot of it has to do with how much and the angle of light hitting the subject. My guess as to why her hair looks the way it does is because it was bloody. Best Regards.
Paul |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 614
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 9:05 pm: |
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Hello All
Did someone mention that there were no murders in 1887. There is the little problem of the Rainham Mystery which was a torso that was fished out of the Thames on May 11, 1887. This was the first in the so called Thames torso murders.
I believe Peter is correct when he states that there was some problem with murder reporting in 1887. It appears that there may have been some degree of influence by the police to downplay the murder rates for a number of years during this era.
All The Best
Gary |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2015
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 9:54 am: |
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Hi,
just wondered what evidence there is that Kelly was a prostitute.
i know there must be some. don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to argue she wasnt I am merely curious
I thank you
Jenni
"People don't notice us, they never see,Under their noses a Womble may be"
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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 10:31 am: |
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I thought Ally's comment was off-beat....
Somebody hasn't been doing their homework. (!!)
Seriously it's easy to sigh at everyone else, but nearly all good ideas on this murder scene are worth having. You carry on!
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