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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 99
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 9:10 am: | 
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Last year, in searching for Mary Jane Kelly’s brother in the 2nd Brigade Scots Guards musters records at the PRO, I made this account of all the names and numbers of Kelly‘s and McCarthy‘s and variants. I have also added some notes.
2nd Brigade Scots Guards musters records - from 1885- to mid 1888.
6192 James Kelly (discharged)
6935 James Kelly (joined at 30)
7734 James Kelly
5857 James Kelly
5352 William Kelly (on 1881 census shown as age 27, born Westmeath, IRE)
5786 Patrick Kelly (joined reserve)
7607 Patrick Kelly (deserted)
6374 Michael Kelly (on 1881 census shown as age 21, born Stirling, Scotland)
7623 Robert Kelly (join reserve)
7754 Patrick O’Kelly (joined reserve)
6330 Michael Keily or Kiely (at school , discharged, later to Lance Corporal?)
5786 P.Keilly (in prison)
Earlier P.Kelly?
And M.Kelly (to Dublin Fusiliers)?
4735 Michael Kelly (from C? Corps to army reserve)
4751 I failed to write down the name but it would not have been Henry, John, or Johnto? (to army reserve)
6269 Thomas Kelly (relegated from 40th Green, discharged)
7421 John Robert Killey (b.May 1867?)
John Robert Killey discharge certificate said: Born at Ramsey, Isle of Man. Joined 19yrs 9mnths, occupation: sailor, 5ft 8¼ ins, chest 34 ins, fresh complexion, brown hair, grey eyes, recruited at Liverpool on 15th Feb 1887, Royal Artillery gave him notice. Father John, mother Mary, younger brother Thomas. Living: College Street, Ramsey, Isle of Man. Service record: 17th Feb 1887-14th Feb 1899=12 years.
Continued musters record:
6347 Charles McCarthy (to army reserve)
5770 Thomas McCarthy (to army reserve)
6552 William McCartney?
Also a Henry McCaskie?
As we can see from the list there was no Henry, John or Johnto Kelly‘s, or variants, or McCarthy’s, in the muster records for the 2nd Brigade Scots Guards. Maybe Kelly’s brother joined up after mid-1888, but I think it unlikely?
Therefore, discharge certificates would have to be searched for most of the men above, but I fear that there is little chance that he was one of the above even if we believe her story?
It may well be that we have to concede that his surname was another name, and that we should look in the records for a different surname with the first names of Henry, John, or Johnto. This would also account for the man only being a lover of Mary Jane Kelly, rather than her brother.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1851
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:39 am: |
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Hi Neal
I suppose it's possible for someone to enlist under an older brother's name (for age purposes)?
Robert |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 100
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 2:19 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
I suppose it's possible. Perhaps there is a possibilty that he joined in the early 1880's and rejoined after mid-1888 and just misses the records available. Discharge certificates need to be fully checked for the men above and any other for the Battalion. Whatever happened, Barnett allegedly knew somehow that the Battalion were on the Curragh Plain in November 1888.
We just have to ask as to how accurate Barnett's memory was?
In saying that the info he gave about Morganstone/Morgenstern is looking like it was accurate, and we hope to have more news on that soon.
Neal |
Robert John Killey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 8:01 am: |
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Hi there im confused. I was bored and i typed in my name on the search engine and it came up wiv my dads name on this site. john robert killey.
My dad was also born in the isle of man. hows every1 neway ok? |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 130
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 1:33 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
No need to worry, John Robert Killey of the Scots Guards records was not the brother of Mary Jane Kelly. I was looking for a John Kelly in the records but John Robert Killey was the closest I found.
All the best
Neal Shelden |
John Carey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 10:02 am: |
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So, according to the evidence, Mary Kelly had a soldier brother known as Henry or “John Two” and he wrote to her at Miller’s Court.
A search of the 1881 census shows at least two soldiers named John Kelly about the right age to have been Mary’s brother:
1. John Kelly, private soldier, age 23, born Longford, Ireland, at Chelsea Barracks (census reference RG11 piece 0079 folio 107 page 20)
2. John Kelly, soldier, age 22 , born Limerick (town) County Limerick, Ireland, at Shorncliffe camp, Cheriton, Kent (census reference RG11 piece 1011 folio 94 page 21)
My searches have led me to identify Mary Kelly of Miller’s Court as the Mary Kelly born at Dowlais, Merthyr Tydfil in 1862 to Edmund Kelly, who died in 1864, and Margaret (O’Brien) Kelly. I wrote about this in Ripperana #47. I am not ruling out the possibility that her parents, and maybe some older brothers or sisters, were born in Ireland. Edmund and Margaret Kelly were not at the Dowlais address at the time of the 1861 census and may well have still been in Ireland at that time, but it looks as though the name Limerick meant something to Mary.
“Brother” may be a somewhat elastic term, - it could be used for someone who was actually a cousin, or even a friend, (as in “he was like a brother to me”) but John Kelly at Cheriton in 1881 evidently came from Limerick.
Can any contributor provide further details of either of these two John Kelly’s?
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Neal Stubbings
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 156
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 4:03 pm: |
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Hi John,
The John Kelly based in Kent is interesting, although as I pointed out above there wasn't a John Kelly in the musters of the 2nd Scots Guards 1885 to mid 1888.
Was it the Royal Artillery at the Shorncliffe Camp in 1881?
Could the Mary Kelly born in Dowlais, Merthyr T in 1862, be the same Mary Kelly, aged 17, a nurse, working for a bank accountant John Geo Todd in 1881. It would interesting if it was her because the address was for Cardiff at St Mary Street? |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 5:46 pm: |
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While seraching for any link between a Kelly and the Scots Guards (specifically the 2nd Scots Guards), the following caught my attention:
Times (London)
12 January 1887
POLICE
At Marylebone, Henry Love, 25, a private in the 2nd Battalion, Scots Guards, was charged with being drunk and assaulting Mary Ann Kelly, living at Baker's Court, East street. It was shown that the prosecutrix was passing along Duke street, Manchester square, between 1 and 2 o'clock that morning when the prisoner, who was drunk, crossed the road, and withou the least provocation slapped her face. She asked him why he had done it, when he attempted to kick her. In this he did not succeed, but he managed to throw her into the road. A constable who saw what took place came up and apprehended the prisoner. On the way to the station he offerd the constable £5 to give him another chance, as he had been previously convicted of a similar offence. He could not give a reason for his conduct. The prisoner, in defence, now said that he was the worse for drink and did not remember what happened. A colour sergeant in the regiment gave the prisoner a bad character, and said that in August last he was sentenced to a month's imprisonment for assaulting a woman. Mr. De Rutzen sentenced the prisoner to two months' imprisonment. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1266
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 5:54 pm: |
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Re: the above, I found the report of Love's previous assault, dated 4 August 1886.
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John Carey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 4:18 am: |
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Neal
Thanks for your post. Folkestone Heritage Library have confirmed that Shorncliffe was a large army camp and at the time of the 1881 census it housed soldiers from the Royal Artillery, as you note, and also the Royal Engineers and the 55th Regiment, as well as a few men from the 41st Regiment, the 6th Dragoons and the 7th Hussars. It is not clear which of these John Kelly born Limerick served with
Yes, Mary Kelly born Dowlais was the nurse in the house of JG Todd at St Mary Street, Cardiff. in the 1881 census. There were only two such Mary’s born Dowlais to choose from. St Mary Street was (and still is) close to the main Cardiff Infirmary in Newport Road.
Chris Scott
Interesting, but Dave Cuthbertson found the report about Henry Love in 1997. Nothing more was found about him. Do we know if it was the same Mary Kelly who later lived at Miller’s Court, and was Henry Love the soldier who wrote to her? My initial thoughts are it is unlikely that Mary Kelly would have wanted to correspond with a man who hit her.
John
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John Carey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 4:17 am: |
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Neal
Thanks for your post. Folkestone Heritage Library have confirmed that Shorncliffe was a large army camp and at the time of the 1881 census it housed soldiers from the Royal Artillery, as you note, and also the Royal Engineers and the 55th Regiment, as well as a few men from the 41st Regiment, the 6th Dragoons and the 7th Hussars. It is not clear which of these John Kelly born Limerick served with
Yes, Mary Kelly born Dowlais was the nurse in the house of JG Todd at St Mary Street, Cardiff. in the 1881 census. There were only two such Mary’s born Dowlais to choose from. St Mary Street was (and still is) close to the main Cardiff Infirmary in Newport Road.
Chris Scott
Interesting, but Dave Cuthbertson found the report about Henry Love in 1997. Nothing more was found about him. Do we know if it was the same Mary Kelly who later lived at Miller’s Court, and was Henry Love the soldier who wrote to her? My initial thoughts are it is unlikely that Mary Kelly would have wanted to correspond with a man who hit her.
John
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John Carey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 8:38 am: |
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Neal
Thanks for your post. Folkestone Heritage Library have confirmed that Shorncliffe was a large army camp and at the time of the 1881 census it housed soldiers from the Royal Artillery, as you note, and also the Royal Engineers and the 55th Regiment, as well as a few men from the 41st Regiment, the 6th Dragoons and the 7th Hussars. It is not clear which of these John Kelly born Limerick served with
Yes, Mary Kelly born Dowlais was the nurse in the house of JG Todd at St Mary Street, Cardiff. in the 1881 census. There were only two such Mary’s born Dowlais to choose from. St Mary Street was (and still is) close to the main Cardiff Infirmary in Newport Road.
John
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Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 903
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 11:03 am: |
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Interesting stuff here....maybe a look at the Merthyr connection may prove useful...The Dowlais connection is cerainly worth a look ,also the chap who punched MJK may well have been her brother.....think about it!...imagine.... the scenario makes a sort of sense!!!
Cheers
Suzi
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John Carey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 4:16 am: |
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Suzi
Merthyr Tydfil could well prove interesting in searching for Mary Kelly’s past. In the nineteenth century it was the centre for coal mining and iron working in Wales. Instead of Caernarfon or Carmarthen, look at Cyfartha which sounds much the same to the ear. Cyfartha in the Merthyr and Dowlais district was where there was a vast ironworks owned by the Crawshay family. There is more on the internet at
http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/cyfarthfa_ironworks.htm
Mary Kelly’s story as told by Joe Barnett has her father in an ironworks in Wales and her “husband” of two or three years Davies as a coal miner. Merthyr is the place that fits both these occupations. Although the ironworks have long since closed, Cyfartha Castle still exists today.
John
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Simon Owen
Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 26
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 2:55 pm: |
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I think the John Kelly we are looking for here is the 2nd one , born Limerick Ireland around about 1859.
Again , I think Mary was also born in Limerick around about 1864. Whats more important however is to identify her in Wales in the early 1880s , also any members of her family that were also in Wales. |
John Carey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 4:47 am: |
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Simon
Thanks for your post. The nearest match I can find in the 1901 census for John Kelly the soldier born in Limerick in 1859 is:
John Kelly, 41, born Ireland, Gunner, Royal Garrison Artillery stationed at Devonport. It could be the same one. The age and occupation is almost right. A more precise note of his birthplace would be useful.
Your thoughts about Mary Kelly born Limerick around 1864 – there is no such Mary anywhere in England or Wales in the 1881 census. I have checked the Mormon index again and there is no record in the census of a Mary Kelly born Limerick five years either side of 1864. You may find my article in Ripperana for January 2004 of interest – note that according to Joe Barnett’s story, Mary was living apart from her family by 1881. My searches have convinced me that before that time, Mary was living with her adoptive family and that her own father, Patrick Kelly, died in 1864 in the Merthyr Tydfil district when she was just two.
John
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John Carey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 9:53 am: |
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What if …
Mary Kelly’s elusive soldier “brother” was actually named Henry.
Two possibilities have been found in the census. Curiously, both have similarities, including connections with Portsmouth.
1. In the 1881 census there is a Henry Kelly, age 20 unmarried, a Gunner at the Royal Marine Artillery Barracks at Eastney, Portsmouth. He was born in Ireland. If nothing else, his year of birth, about 1861, is consistent with his being a brother of Mary Kelly. Tracing him forward in time is not straightforward, but by elimination the best match I can find is that by the time of the 1901 census he had left the army and worked as a tram guard (conductor) at Salford, Lancashire. The 1901 census shows Henry Kelly, born Ireland, 43, at 15 Lillah Street, Salford with brothers William, 38 also tram guard, born Portsmouth (interestingly) and Thomas 20, tram guard, born Salford. There were two sisters, Mary Kelly, 28 – seemingly of no occupation - and before anyone jumps to conclusions I don’t think this can have been the Mary of Miller’s Court as, according to the census, she was born in Malta. The other sister was named Rose Kelly, a skirt machinist born Salford around 1883. There was also a younger brother Robert Kelly age 3 born Salford.
The family mother, who must have been married before, was Mary Aiken , 62, born Ireland.
Rose Kelly the skirt machinist in Salford had at least four brothers, maybe more, and one sister which strangely matches what Mary of Miller’s Court told Joe Barnett. But it looks nothing more than co-incidence. (Census 1881 RG11 1162 folio 153 page 35)
1901 RG 13 3733 folio 22 page 35)
2. The other Henry Kelly was listed as Henry E J Kelly, a Captain in the Royal Artillery at the time of the 1901 census. This Henry lived at 27 Buckingham Gate, London with his wife Mary Kelly, age 28: and co-incidentally this Mary was a British subject born in Spain. Tracing back twenty years, Captain Kelly looks most likely to be the Henry Edward Theodore Kelly age 11, son of Henry Holdsworth Kelly a staff Captain in the Royal Marines, living in married quarters at the Royal marine Artillery Barracks at Eastney, Portsmouth. Henry Holdsworth Kelly was a British subject, born Mauritius: his wife Elizabeth Eleanor Kelly was born in Dublin and they had three further sons, John Donald Kelly, 9, William Archibald Kelly, 7, Harry Holdsworth Kelly, 11 months, and also two daughters, Hilda Margaret Catharine Kelly, 5, and Elizabeth Harriet Kelly, 3, all born Hampshire – presumably Eastney.
(Census reference 1881 RG11 1162 folio 137 page 3)
1901 RG13 95 folio53 page 7).
That makes another two Mary Kelly’s found in the census. On the present evidence, neither looks to have been in East London in 1888.
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Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 11:23 am: |
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John,
Re "what if..."
The one thing that convinces me that Mary's brother's name was John is the information (supplied by Barnett IIRC) that his nickname was "Johnto". This is highly suggestive of a Welsh connection.
"Ianto" was - and still is in some parts - a very common South West Welsh pet name for "Evan", "Ifan" and by extension "John" (Evan/Ifan being the Welsh equivalent of John). In North Wales (Caernarfon/Fflint) the use of the "Ianto" diminutive is less prevalent than in the South.
South East Wales (Cardiff, Merthyr/Cyfarthfa, Bedwellty) was very cosmopolitan in the latter half of the 19th Century. The Welsh language beginning to lose its grip and, apart from a few pockets of Welsh usage (e.g. in Pontypridd and Llwynypia), the use of colloquial diminutives would also have been in decline. You'd have more easily found a Sean, a Juan or a Giovanni in the Merthyr area than a Ianto at that time.
To me, the fact that "Ianto" was predominantly a South *West* Wales nickname adds some weight to the Kellys having spent some time at Carmarthen or around Carmarthenshire/Pembrokeshire, which were and are veritable "Ianto homelands" to a large extent.
Of course all this hangs on whether "Ianto Kelly" was our "Johnto Kelly". Given that "Johnto" is such an unusual form of "John" (try Googling on Ianto/Johnto and you'll see what I mean), it could well have stemmed from a journalist's or policeman's transcription error (capital J's and I's being very similar in some handwriting to this day).
If so, it's not beyond the bounds of reason that MJK's brother would have been known as "Little Ianto Kelly" - or more likely "Ianto Kelly Fach" - if he and his sister grew up in the Carmarthenshire area of South West Wales.
Of course, that doesn't preclude the family moving further East or North later, but if my equation of Ianto with Johnto is correct then the Kellys may well have spent a good few years down South when they first arrived in Wales.
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