| Author |
Message |
    
Jason
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 6:10 pm: |       |
Does anyone know what investigations, if any, were made concerning Joseph Flemming as Mary's killer? Also, maybe the FM on the well somehow was meant to refer to Flemming to cast suspicion on him by someone else or maybe by Flemming himself. Maybe FM was Mary Flemming backwards--that is, wishful thinking on the part of Flemming or a mocking gesture by Mary's killer, made by a jealous lover or JtR. What do others think? |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 376
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 9:28 am: | |
I'm not too sure about what investigations were made about Joe Flemming, if any. I'm not sure that the FM means anything. I've said somewhere before that if we sometimes see something that we don't understand our brains quickly translate it into something we do so the letters FM may not be really there at all, they may just be blood splashes that our brains are making more of than they actually are. If the killer did write FM on the wall though, I don't think they would have written anything backwards, although Jack did like his games so maybe they do mean something, we'll never know for certain though.
Sarah |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 599
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 6:19 am: | |
I say thank God the letters don’t look anything like JB!
What with that and the rumoured grave-spitting, and the gossiping old nun pontificating (“Mark my words, if it wasn’t for strumpets like Kelly, Jack wouldn’t have hurt a fly, tut tut tuttety tut etc etc”), poor old Joe would have been hung, drawn and quartered on these boards long ago and no mistake. 
Love,
Caz
|
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 172
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 6:39 pm: | |
Hi all!
Letters!!! come on!!!!!!!!!! p'raps it should have stood for Flemming 4 Mary!! Caz I love that idea! has anyone actually got anything SENSIBLE on that spitting 'toot'..Lawd luv us!!! Cheers
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1794
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 6:52 pm: | |
Caz, maybe you can work the spitting into the Maybrick scenario and give it a Liverpool twist.
I suggest "The Saliva Birds".
Robert
|
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 176
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 4:49 am: | |
Robert-Verrrrrrrrry spitty remark old chap!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Jason
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 7:37 pm: | |
Hello all: I don't understand why the above speculation is being mocked by people here...It was just speculation....no weirder than anything else here...why should people contribute anything here when when they do so they are mocked? Makes no sense.....Not very friendly or polite.
Regards, Jason |
Jason
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 7:47 pm: | |
Nobody could even answer the question...I guess you have to be somebody "special"? to contribute here or else your head is bitten off!!
Take care, Jason
 |
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 193
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 4:11 pm: | |
Jaso-Sorry if you feel like that!!..you'll get used to us!! We feel privileged if we're merely mocked!!
Don't give up 'eh!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 107
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 4:22 pm: | |
Jason,
Yes, your initial question was a reasonable one and deserves an answer. Since it was Joe Barnett who mentioned Flemming at the inquest I would think some of Barnett partisans on the boards might be able to help.
Leanne, Richard -- do you have anything on Flemming that won't compromise your projected book and which might answer Jason's question?
Don. |
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 195
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 9:11 pm: | |
Jason- I agree that the question was a good one...but does anyone actually know where JoeB and Joe F met.?? where and when?
Cheers
Suzi |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 613
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 11:49 am: | |
Hi Robert,
I wonder if someone heard the name Joseph Flemming (any relation to the Fast Show’s Bob Flemming, who was always trying to clear his throat?), got the two Joes mixed up, and we finally ended up with this rather regrettable ‘spitting’ image.
Sounds like a good idea for a tv prog….
I quite liked Carla ‘Brick’ Lane’s ‘Saliva Birds’, but found her ‘Bread’ rather indigestible (and more up Kosminski’s alley), and couldn’t swallow ‘Butterflies’ for love nor money.
Love,
Caz
(Message edited by Caz on January 12, 2004) |
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 234
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 1:54 pm: | |
Hi Caz
You're obviously in the same frame of mind as me we're going to get told off big time soon..or should that be tolled off (!) as in Bow Bells!! Tee hee!! (I couldn't be doing with Bread either..will stick to fish and potatoes I think!!)
All best
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1827
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 4:43 pm: | |
Hi Caz
Well, I never watched "Bread", and "Butterflies" irritated me.
One of my favourite sitcoms from yesteryear was "Only When I Laugh" starring James Bolam. Can you imagine Kelly as the perennial moaner, Figgis?
"I keep telling you, doctor! I'm not joined up properly!"
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 259
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 5:02 pm: | |
Robert-
Butterfies in your tummy is a terrible thing!!..almost as bad as me bearing a hideous resemblance to Wendy Craig!!! (true!)
Eeek
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1840
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 5:57 pm: | |
You don't look particularly like Wendy Craig, Suzi.
What's wrong with Wendy Craig, anyway? (not that I much cared for her sitcoms, but that's another matter)
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 265
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 7:00 pm: | |
Robert-
Well maybe not so much now..but the nose is still there!! (unlike marys!!)..no offence to those who take it!!
Back to the poem.........
cheers Suzi |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 433
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 9:40 am: | |
Suzi,
You asked about when Joe B met Joe F (hmm sounds like the title to a film!!).
Well as far as I understood it they never met but Mary told Joe B about Joe F. Although apparently Joe F did visit Mary from time to time so maybe they did meet but I don't recall reading that they did.
Sarah |
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 296
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:12 am: | |
Sarah-
Reckon you're right..thanks for that
Cheers
Suzi |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 160
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 2:24 pm: | |
Does anyone know where the suggestion, reported in the A-Z, p.463, that Flemming "ill-used her for living with Barnett", came from?.
It's a shame we have no knowledge of the whereabouts of Joe Flemming on the night of Nov. 9th.
Thanks, Jon |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 11:46 pm: | |
Jon,
The suggestion came from Julia Venturney. Part of her statement from the Kelly inquest was
"She broke the windows a few weeks ago whilst she was drunk, she told me she was very fond of another man named Joe, and he had ill-used her because she cohabitated with Joe (Barnett)."
Nina |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1410
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 3:21 am: | |
G'day Nina,
Please tell us in which Newspaper, on which date you read the report that Julia Venturney said that at the actual inquest.
The 'New York Herald' 10 November, (which was two days before the inquest), said: 'but there was a side window with a pane broken in a quarrel she had A WEEK ago with a man with whom she cohabited.' The reporter probably got that information from Thomas Bowyer, (who, as I read in another report), was aware of the broken window before he even looked inside the room.
The question is: was one of the panes broken during that particular quarrel, and the other pane broken 'a few weeks' before it during another quarrel?
LEANNE
Q: What do you get if you cross Frankenstein with a hot dog?
A: Frankenfurterstein!
|
Simon Owen
Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 34
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 4:29 am: | |
I think one pane had been broken for ages and another pane was broken during Joe and Mary's final quarrel. I think the key gets lost somewhere between the breaking of the two panes of glass. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1411
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 5:11 am: | |
G'day,
Perhaps....just perhaps...the furthest pane was broken first, and only Joe had the ability to reach through and open the door for him and her. Then the pair quarrelled on the 30th of October and Joe threatened to leave, so Mary threw something and deliberately smashed the other pane to allow HER to reach the lock. What do ya think?
LEANNE
"Mommy, Mommy, I'm 16 years old. Don't you think I'm old enough to wear a bra now?"
"Shut up George!"
|
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 164
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 5:47 am: | |
Thankyou Nina.
Yes Leanne, I thought it was in the press too, the Times does not mention it, neither does the Daily Telegraph. I did find it in Stewarts 'Sourcebook' pg 366, it was quoted from a file Ref. MJ/SPC, NE1888, Box 3, Case Paper 19.
It may be somewhere in the papers I just did not come across it last night. I knew I had the impression Joe Flemming was known as a violent type, that is with Kelly, but I couldn't remember where I got that impression from.
This statement in the A-Z was my only clue, so it was true then.
Regards, Jon
(I'll wager Bruce Paley wrote his expose on the wrong Joe)
(Message edited by Jon on August 13, 2004) |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1413
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 7:40 am: | |
G'day Jon,
So do you think the newspapers interviewed the wrong Joe Barnett about Mary Kelly's death, the inquest heard the testimony of the wrong Joe Barnett, Julia Venturney and Elizabeth Prater were talking about some other Joe Barnett, or are you just stirring me?....or do you just want me to write another sick joke?
LEANNE
"Mommy, Mommy! My head hurts!"
"Shut up and get away from the dart board!"
|
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 166
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 1:17 pm: | |
No Leanne, I think Abberline should have got a statement from Joe Flemming, Kelly's previous lover, he appears to have known where she lived and was known to have been violent with her about her relationship with Barnett.
Flemming could have provided some missing info about the events of Nov. 9th, he certainly should have been contacted.
The police today would have tracked him down, his possible involvement may throw new light on this mystery-within-a-mystery.
Two's company, three's a crowd, the eternal triangle, maybe thats the motive here with Kelly's murder.
Regards, Jon |
Simon Owen
Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 38
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 2:19 pm: | |
Theres quite a few people who should have been interviewed in the Kelly investigation , but weren't - Joseph Flemming being just one of them ! |
John Fogarty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Goryboy
Post Number: 72
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 5:01 pm: | |
Jason,
According to Jim Tully, author of Prisoner 1167: The Madman Who Was Jack the Ripper, the Metropolitan police made a bee line for the home that suspect (and escaped wife-murderer) James Kelly was using. As a slightly daft, highly irascible lunatoid carriage upholsterer, he moved about quite a bit, staying variously with friends and even his former in-laws.
Tully claims the police were hot on his heels only hours after the MJK murder. So, either they'd been keeping an eye on him or they had some strong suspicions about him. Either way, he was not arrested, got clean away to Liverpoole (on foot!), and apparently spent the next 34 years drifting aimlessly back and forth from England to the U.S., until he finally checked himself back into the lunatic asylum from which he'd escaped all those years ago (Broadmore).
For further details, check out Tully's book. Although James Kelly is a bit of a stretch as Jack the Ripper, Tully knows how to spin a yarn.
Cheers!
Goryboy
Cheers,
John e-Rotten
(a.k.a., Goryboy) |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 5:23 pm: | |
Leanne,Jon,
The report I found on Julia Venturney came from Stewarts "The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion" p.407. Sorry I forgot to mention my source.
Nina
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