| Author |
Message |
    
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 489
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 4:00 pm: |       |
Hi Robert.
There are a lot of questions not answered, in this case, it is almost if the police suppressed vital clues, a hankerchief, must have been found in Kellys room, as you say why would such a well dressed client want a used hankerchief returned., or infact anyone.
The question of money is relevant, one would imagine that the client Mrs Cox saw with kelly, paid her some fee, and most definately Hutchinsons sighting, lets face it Kelly was desperate for funds, yet seems to have had a intoxicated ride that evening, one would imagine, she made some money during the evening,
Since she stopped frequenting the pubs,[ last sighting between 11am-12am] she seemed in good spirits,singing in her room. and hutchinson seemed to suggest she was full of laughter, she even kissed the astracan man.
I would imagine, that this previously depressed woman, had aquired enough money to pay at least 1 weeks back rent to McCarthy, yet where was this money?.
Before she met the astracan man , she had speeishly asked Hutchinson for sixpence, which could imply that she had already aquired Four Shillings, 4/6d being a weeks rent..
so For Aberline to have been quoted as believing the man[ hutchinson] I Would assume, he would have found the Silk hankerchief amongst her pocessions, also unless a person of lower classes murdered her, some coins in her poccession.
She seemed to have some money on her person , if she was able to obtain milk , the following morning, unless she stole some, which frequently happens on my doorstep many mornings.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1656
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 5:19 pm: | |
Hi Richard
Well, finding a man's red handkerchief in the room is about the only way I can account for Abberline's believing Hutchinson's statement - though of course there is Bob's theory that Abberline did not believe Hutchinson's statement, but only pretended to.
I still tend to go for the night scenario. But I'm just wondering whether it's possible that Lewis was on the list of people to be called at the inquest, and would have spoken had it not been for the coroner's hurry to have the proceedings terminated. After all, wouldn't Bond and/or Brown have also put in an appearance if the inquest had been continued? Three doctors gave evidence at both the Stride and Eddowes inquests.
Robert
|
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 61
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 5:56 pm: | |
Hi all
Richard-Where did you get the milk thing re-maurice lewis..as far as I know (A-Z!!) hehad known Mary for around 5 yrs and was quoted as seeing her in The Britannia at around 10 am on the 9th Nov.Also as Lewis claimed to have seen
Mary drinking with the ubiquitous "Danny" or was it "Joe" in the Horn of Plenty on the 'night' of the murder..can this man be trusted? As i see it ..he only spoke to the press and wasn't called to the 'inquest'Any further info on the'Hutch' story ask Bob...hate to say it but it rings very true!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers
Suzi
|
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 4:16 pm: | |
"4. If you accept Maxwell the fire didn't get started till after sunrise. 5. If it was started after sunrise it would still have been burning when Abberline got in. 6. Maxwell is ruled out!"
>>There was PLENTY of time for the clothing fire to burn out before Abberline got into the room, even assuming a Maxwellian scenario. Remember Barnaby and Burgho?
Bullwinkle
|
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 5:33 pm: | |
I really think you are over analizing the case you guys are to smart sometimes in a case like this ignorance is the best tool The most likely conclusion is often right. I dont believe the police suppressed evidence. what makes you think abberline had to find a hankerchief in order for him to believe Hutchinson. Abberline also stated in a later interview that no one got a good look at the killer whitch would seem to suggest that he did not put to much value in Hutchinsons description and we all know how detailed his description of the man he saw kelly with was. The money is an intereting point but remember that prostitutes in 1888 were the same as prostitutes now hustlers you can have an east end prostitute for a loaf of bread and the man cox saw kelly with was carring a pot of bear. I personally know women who will go home with some one who buys them bears. and then again kelly could have spent the money the man that cox saw her with gave her. She was a visitor to the pubs. Haveing fought my own demons with alcholism I know how tough it is to stop drinking once you get on a roll. She could have asked Hutchinson for the sixpence because she was planning on asking the the other man for the rest and of course if he killed her he would not have paid her. If you believe the statement that she obtained milk that morning she could have spent the last of her money for that I dont believe there is any real evidence here. Abberline obviously did not put to much faith in Hutchinsons statements later on as per his interview in Pall Mall Gazzett. mary obviously was not a very responsible person with her money or she would not have been so far behind on her rent. Richard you are right there are alot of unanswered twist but in a case a 115 years old you ar going to find that, Eye witness reports are more often then not inaccurate and lead investegaters down the wrong path remember we also have a report that kelly was seen with barnett around 10am. that morning so who do you believe I feel the most reliable witness was cox she live next door to kelly. SO I think the man she saw kelly with unfortunately killed her. But my conclusions are just my guess and I dont have the resources that some of you have so keep me posted because I really enjoy reading them. your friend CB |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 64
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 7:33 am: | |
Hi CB,
Quite!
Cheers
Suzi |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 203
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 8:57 am: | |
If Cox says the room was dark at 3:00 then the fire had to have been started after 3. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1658
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 9:22 am: | |
I've read somewhere of a witness reporting a sudden, brief burst of light in the middle of the night. It doesn't come from the inquest testimony. I just wish I could remember where I read it.
Robert |
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 9:13 pm: | |
"I just feel that alot of so called clues are not clues at all."
>>But what is your principle of distinguishing one case from the other?
Bullwinkle
|
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 66
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 11:50 am: | |
Robert
Where did you read that?? I've never heard of that..but it sounds fascinating!!..anyone else remember this??
Cheers
Suzi |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 492
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 3:45 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
A sudden burst of light is new to me, as far as I know the room was in totally in darkness, throughout the night.
Richard, |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1665
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 4:13 pm: | |
Hi folks
Don't get excited - I'm either remembering it wrong, or else it will turn out to be unimportant.
I've started looking. Farson's book has Lewis hearing the murder cry and seeing a faint light in Kelly's room. I don't know where Farson got this from.
I thought I remembered reading of a bright light somewhere.
By the way, Richard, Farson mentions Kelly being seen by three people in the morning.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 71
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 7:16 pm: | |
Richard and Robert-
The burst of light sounds fascinating..cant recall it anywhere personally sure it must be somewhere lurking in Farson..keep reading Robert!..I believe those three a.m. people!! In my experience you tend to remember the first things you see in the morning!! whoops nearly got onto the fire in kelly's room thread there!! see you all there!
cheers
suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 72
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
 Whoops am on that one!!!!!! That's what you you get for dancing around the boards late at night!
Suzi |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 496
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 3:42 am: | |
Hi,
Kelly bought a candle on wednesday evening from McCarthys shop, it was reported to have been half used.
As there were no reports of a fire , seen in her room during the night, she must have used the candle to undress, for the room would have been pitch black, if she was attacked then, the candle would not have been blown out, by either kelly or the ripper, who would have welcomed the light, yet there were no reports of the candle being alight when the body was discovered.
Of course the killer could have blown it out on leaving the room, but I would not have thought he would have worried about that.
All the evidence points to Kelly being killed around 9am .
Richard. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 497
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 3:52 am: | |
Hi,
One more point, if kelly bought the candle wednesday evening, and it was half used, she must have used it quite a lot that evening,it was proberly therefore her habit,to have the candle alight whilst she was sleeping, exspecially as she was frightened,therefore as i mentioned in my post above,if she was attacked whilst asleep, or as she got into bed, the candle would still be burning.
The answer to the candle being out is simple , kelly blew it out when she awoke around 8am, proberly as a result of catherine picketts knock.
And of course there would have been no need for light from that period, as it was morning.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1675
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 12:01 pm: | |
Hi Richard
I doubt if Kelly slept all night with a farthing dip burning. These things couldn't have lasted very long.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 79
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 1:03 pm: | |
Robert/Richard
Hi.. "Farthing dip?!!" Ooh eh! Think Boys! Mary comes in..cold,wet,feeling like nothing on earth..come on we've all been there! Lights the 'farthing dip' gets undressed puts her clothes on the chair (odd that!!) blows out candle and snuggles up on her hideous bed to try and get some sleep..hence half the f.d.!!!!!!!!!
Well?
Cheers
Suzi |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 498
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 2:59 pm: | |
Hi,
Just as a matter of interest, how long was a farthing dip, was it a standard sized candle, surely a candle would have had a resonable life span.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1680
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 3:11 pm: | |
Hi Richard
I don't know how long a farthing dip was, but since it was a farthing, surely it must have been the cheapest candle possible to obtain, as the farthing was the lowest denomination coin.
In Chapter 19 of his book, Paley quotes from the "Pall Mall Gazette" of 12 November, which says the jury saw the room by the illumination of a farthing dip in a bottle. I wouldn't put it past the authorities to have used Kelly's own candle for this.
Interestingly, the paper speaks of the jury being shown "pools". I'll have to think on this when Shannon's blood argument comes up again.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 501
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 3:23 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
Hopefully someone on this site, will be able to clarify the size of such a item known as a farthing dip, For I feel it is important,as it was stated , that half a candle was in the room. and since she only obtained it the previous evening, we may be able to interpret approx, amount of burning required to reduce it to half size.
Richard. |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 82
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 3:52 pm: | |
Robert/Richard,
Hmmm this farthing dip thing is going to run isn't it..shall we start another thread??!!
have just been consulting Chambers..hasn't really told us anything we dont know ..but 'farthing' does come up with'anything very small' and 'dipping' was a method of making candles..cheaper than moulding..just re-dipping the wick-core in and out of wax overlaying a few layers..perhaps a farthing dip was just 4 dips!!..hey good idea 'eh!!
Well
Cheers
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1683
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 4:08 pm: | |
Hi Suzi
It sounds as if it was thicker than, say, a birthday cake candle (if the paper was right about one being wedged in a bottle). But how good a quality was it, and how long?
PS I blame candles for the demise of poor Monty. Valentine told him to go for a dip, and look what happened!
Robert |
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 5:51 pm: | |
"I've read somewhere of a witness reporting a sudden, brief burst of light in the middle of the night."
>>I don't need witnesses to attest to this, I've seen it myself. Usually when there's only about three fingers left in the bottle, and when my head is cocked back with eyes half-open, I see it.
Bullwinkle
|
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 11:49 am: | |
This is a round table disscusion without the table. Just like you may have in any colledge class. The point is I throw things out and you reply. Thats how you learn. So I would like to here anything you have to say that might help me out I would be happy if someone could give me any information to help So I guess I wont be quite any time soon. Suzi The burst of light is interesting Robert I would like to read about that so if you can remember were you read that keep me informed. Welcome back Bullwinkle I think there are clues that are real I just think some clues are not do you think the kettle is an important clue or the burnt cloths? to The best of my knowledge it has not been proven when those things were burned? Do you think that the fact Mary kelly had no money on her was an uncommon accurance? I think she was often strapped for cash. Do you think that the fact that Abbeline had to find a hanky in order for him to believe george? I dont. This was all I was pointing out If anyone can point to any reading source that can Prove any of those things happend the night of the murder I would be happy to read it and I Would jump on the wagon. I think Robert has a valid point about the people who claim to see Kelly after the murder. The problem with this is we cant talk to them after a hundred years. We cant look them in the eye and judge if they are lieing or not. All I am trying to do is come up with a valid suspect based on actual clues that I can prove. I prefer to think that Abberline was a bright detective so I do depend on his oppinion. I believe that Kelly was killed between 1:30 and 3 I base this on the testimoney of cox at the inquest She stated that she saw kelly enter her apartment around 12:00AM She claimed she walked by again and heard Mary singing about 1:30AM and then she walked by again at 3:00 And the room was dark So that would lead me to believe that the man that Cox saw Kelly with or the man that george claimed to see kelly with killed her. Again I would be glad to her any constructive critisim on my theory I always look forward to reading any new an interesting material on the case. I feel in a case that is a 115 years old you have to keep an open mind to any theory. I got a kick out of all the response to my post and I really was glad to here from you all. I can wait till I can become a registerd guest so my post can be put up faster. Take care all and happy new year BE SAFE YOUR FRIEND CB |
