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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 765
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 11:28 am: |       |
The cryptic passage below is from the Morning Oregonian of 23 December 1888. Can anyone explain the writer's comment that the song explained the killing?
Chris
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Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 351
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 12:01 pm: | |
Maybe someone didn't like her singing....other than that I have no idea what it means.
It's very odd.
The song "Sweet Violets", is that another name for the song "A Violet from Mother's Grave"?
Sarah |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1596
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 12:07 pm: | |
The only thing I can think of is that Kelly may have been drawing attention to herself by singing in the middle of the night.
Robert |
Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 41
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 1:46 pm: | |
I imagine the lyrics to "Sweet Violets" must hold some clue. Perhaps a murder takes place in the song which might give a clue to the killer's identity, or motive?
Does anyone know the lyrics to the song? I put it into a search engine, but only found a Sinead O'Connor version, which I doubt is the original. |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 766
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 2:06 pm: | |
Kris
You will find the lyrics at
http://casebook.org/victims/mary_jane_kelly.violets.html |
Alexander Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 6:15 pm: | |
Evening All
“Sweet Violets” is not the same song as “A Violet Plucked from Mother’s Grave.”
Newspapers reported that Kelly was heard singing “Sweet Violets.” At the Inquest, however, Cox said the song she heard was “A violet I plucked from my mother’s grave when a boy.”
No matter what song was sung by Kelly, as the extract posted by Chris refers to “Sweet Violets,” it is probably “Sweet Violets” that the writer of the article deems significant.
The Pall Mall Gazette, 10th Nov. 1888, page 8, published the following:
““SWEET VIOLETS.”
The following is the song of “Sweet Violets,” which the murdered woman was heard singing at one o’clock yesterday morning : -
Sweet violets, sweeter than all the roses,
Ladened with fragrance, sparkling with dew,
Sweet violets, from mossy dell and rivulet,
Zillah, darling one, I plucked them, my darling, for you.
Oh, stay! go not away,
Violets are blooming love for you alone.
Oh! sweet violets, sweeter than all the roses,
Zillah, darling one, I plucked them and brought them for you.
Sweet violets, resting in beauty’s bower,
Crouched all unnoticed I did pluck that flower.
Sweet violets, still looking up to Heaven,
Zillah, darling one, I plucked them and brought them for you.”
Best Wishes
alex
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1601
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 6:26 pm: | |
Of course, as long as Kelly knew both songs, she could have been singing both of them - it would have been a natural transition.
Could the writer above have meant that the song would have identified Kelly? (if someone was searching for her, and this was a song she was always singing?)
Robert |
Brad McGinnis
Detective Sergeant
Username: Brad
Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 7:13 am: | |
Hi All,
While we know MJK was a hooker it is a little known fact she was a domme too. The song she sang was "Sweep Violence", a song about BDSM practices she used on her chimney sweep Johns. Sweeps were a kinky lot and either went to Mary Kelly or Mary Poppins for their jollies. I think the words and lyrics appear in "The Best of Alice Cooper" LP. Look too under references of "Sooty" in Casebook. Regards, Brad |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1606
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 12:54 pm: | |
So we're looking for a sooty man who fed the birds fourpence a day and was quite lazy - he preferred to write "FM" rather than "Supercalafragilisticexpiallydocious" on the partition.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 475
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 3:58 am: | |
Hi,
What concerns me, is the blotchy faced man, carrying, a quart of ale, what exactly did he go back to her room for?.
For Sexual favours?. evidence supplied seems to indicate, she spent most of the time he was in the room singing, I would imagine he was drinking his ale, while she was doing her karoke.
Whoever this man was, he appeared to know where kelly lived, according to Mrs cox's neice many years later, Kelly said to this man ' All right love dont pull me along , which indicates that he led the way through the passageway.
I Feel strongly, thatever since she had her nightmare, about being murdered , she was petrified in spending the night hours alone in that room, but I would be surprised if she would allow a stranger, into her room without a tempting fee, and I Therefore feel that this blotchy faced man was known to Kelly as a friend.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1612
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 8:45 am: | |
Hi Richard
She might easily have said to the man "I live at Miller's Court, first alley on the right." That would explain his pulling her along.
I can't believe he only went to her room for a cabaret.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 476
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 4:26 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
Blimey 1612 Posts. congratulations sir..
Of course she could have directed him to her room, but the pulling along , [ if a true observation?.] Would suggest a air of impatience, whether that impatience was a result of a homicidal mind , or a sexual frustration is debatable,
Is entirely possible that she sang Sweet Violets , whilst undressing, but as she remarked to Mrs Cox'I am going for a song' , may suggest that she and her client[ blotchy face] were just simply having a good time.
I am of the opinion , that Mrs cox's statement may be full of red herrings, and a full interpretation will be discussed in the book.
Richard. |
Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 7:47 pm: | |
Chris,
Newspapers here in the West used to be pretty "smart-Alecky". "Sweet Violets" was probably viewed by the reporter (and many of his readers) as an annoying, overly sentimental song.
When my father was growing up (1930s & 40s), he learned a comedy song called "Sweet Violets", probably based (very loosely) on the original. You were supposed to sing it with great, forced seriousness. The "joke" was that the lyrics ignored the obvious rhymes the listener was expecting. It began like this:
There once was a farmer who took a young miss
in back of the barn where he gave her a ...
Lecture on horses and chickens and eggs
and told her that she had such beautiful ...
Manners that suited a girl of her charms
a girl that he wanted to take in his ...
Washing and ironing and then, if she did
They could get married and raise lots of ...
Sweet Violets!
Sweeter than the roses!
Covered all over, from head to toe
Covered all over with
Sweet Violets!
Steve Laughery |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 558
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 1:30 pm: | |
Hi Steve,
I’m with you. I detected a distinct touch of black humour when I read that report, as if the writer was saying “No wonder he murdered the poor creature – no one could stand to hear that bloody awful song over and over again.”
The actual song Mary sang is irrelevant because it could easily have been misreported anyway.
I feel much the same way about American Pie and Mouldy Old Dough – oh and Mull of Kintyre. And Mistletoe and Wine, We Are The Cheeky Girls and Billy, Don’t be a Hero. You got me started now. 
Love,
Caz
(Message edited by Caz on December 22, 2003) |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 304
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 2:05 pm: | |
I have to agree. I detect a note of sarcasm in the article. Chris, I'm wondering what the context is and who is "the author" he speaks of -- clearly not himself.
The intent appears to be a comment on the song or the singing. Perhaps the song (either one) was deemed overly sentimental -- but it actually is not so overly sentimental for the period. Perhaps it is a comment of Mary's singing ability, particularly if she was drunk. Or perhaps it is assumed she was just keeping everyone awake in the middle of the night.
Andy S.
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 775
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 3:43 pm: | |
Andy
I'm afraid I can't cast any light on who the reporter referred to is. This piece was taken from a column of random pieces called "A Rhyme to Bill Nye and a melange of Paragraphs and Sketches". I's postin a piece below to show the Whitechapel section in context
Sorry i can't be of more help
Chris
 |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 307
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 3:59 pm: | |
Thanks, Chris. This is clearly a collection of "humorous" quips (though the last one isn't a bit funny by modern standards). No doubt the Kelly reference is a comment on her assumed singing ability or lack thereof.
Andy S.
(Message edited by aspallek on December 22, 2003) |
Suzi Hanney
Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:49 am: | |
All together now..............
"ONLY A VIOLET THAT i PLUCKED WHEN BUT A BOY.........................."
Whose round is it!..anyone got a handy quart of ale to hand? failing that a large v&t would suffice!
Seriously though I do think that 'Only a Violet that I plucked from Mother's grave' is the best candidate for the'sentimental'song sung by our Mary! Also when sung ad nauseum...........as my husband will contest can be extremely irritating!! 1-2-3..'Only a violet................'
Love
suzi |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 303
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 11:01 am: | |
It must be said, considering the probable purpose for Mary and Mr Carrotty Moustache being in the room, it hardly sounds like the sort of song to put you in the mood for a bit of rumpy-pumpy now does it!!!!  |
Suzi Hanney
Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 23
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 11:25 am: | |
Alan,
Oh I don't know..............!
O.K. what would you suggest..'I will survive' by Gloria Gaynor!!..perhaps that's why Mr Carroty left so soon!!
Love
Suzi |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 207
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 8:33 pm: | |
By any chance, can anyone tell us who the composer and lyricist of the two songs, "Sweet Violets" and "I plucked a flower from my Mother's grave". It might not mean anything, but who knows. Suppose one of them was composed by Michael Maybrick, for instance.
Jeff |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 790
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 10:42 am: | |
Hi Jeff
From the link on the site to the scan of the music, "A Violet from Mother's Grave" wasw written by Will H Fox. Can't help on the other one.
By the way, I rewtched the other day the 1988 Michael Caine and they use the lyrics from "Sweet Violets" (as quoted by Alex above) as a running theme throughout the film - it is the song sun on occasions in the pub scenes and they use it as the song Mary is singing on the night of the killing.
Happy Christmas to all
Chris |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 320
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 12:40 pm: | |
Chris,
Interesting. I didn't remember that about the Caine film. May have been a copyright issue with "Only a Violet..."
Andy S.
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 208
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 6:06 pm: | |
Hi Chris (and Merry Christmas),
Never heard of Will H. Cox.
The only thing I noticed about the music on the sound track of the Caine telefilm was that just before Mary Kelly is going to be killed, she is leaving the pub, and the music from the pub is the tune, "Do You Want to Dance the Polka?" This was a piece of colossal cheek by the producer and director of that film - that tune may be from the 19th Century, but it definitely is from the 1941
film version of DR.JECKYL AND MR. HYDE, with Spencer Tracy, Ingrid Bergman, and Lana Turner.
Bergman's character Ivy sings it while serving as a barmaid. It was obviously a psychological touch by that film's production to reawaken thoughts about the 1941 film, which leads back to the literary original by Stevenson, and reminds the informed hearer of the stunning West End dramatic success of that year, the Jeckyl and Hyde of Richard Mansfield (who is a suspect in the Caine telefilm). Interesting little trick there.
Thanks for looking up Cox.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 8:11 pm: | |
Caroline, Chris, Andrew, et al
Exactly. "Paragraphs & Sketches" looks like the columns one found in daily and weekly papers all over the U.S. west coast (and, I would suspect, all over the English-speaking world) 100+ years ago. They had names like (I'm making these up) "Here & There", "Bits & Pieces", "I See By The Papers", etc. They were "cribbed" from other newspapers - out here, the local columnists often raided the Denver and mid-west papers, especially the "Inner Ocean" and anything from Chicago. They would paraphrase what someone else had written, give it a local spin or funny comment, and use it to fill-up space.
I don't think there is any cryptic message or secret clue alluded to; I think it's just a dumb joke ("Say, did you folks hear that the girl that got murdered in London last month was singing "Sweet Violets" when her 'boyfriend' cut her throat? If that's not 'justifiable homicide', I don't know what is!" [insert rimshot here]).
Steve |
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