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Louis van Dompselaar
Police Constable
Username: Etaoin
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 4:38 am: | 
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Acting on what Neal Shelden lists about "Morganstone" in his booklet on Catharine Eddowes, I had a quick look in the online marriage records available over here in Holland.
I first tried to find father "Peter" and a link to Alphen en Riel (Shelden has "Alphen, Priel" which is probably an error in the English records).
Surprisingly enough, I found a marriage record for Adrianus L. right away:
Adrianus Lucas Morgenstern, born in Alphen en Riel, date unknown, maried Antonetta Smits on 30 November 1872 at Roosendaal. His parents are listed as Petrus Morgenstern and Anna Cornelia van der Minne.
There are three other marriage records for the same family:
Lodewijk Morgenstern, born 19 April 1842
in Alphen en Riel, married 24 November 1866
to Elisabeth Elisabeth Maria van den Heuvel (sic - the double christian name might be a transcription error).
Daughter Dimphna Maria Morgenstern, born around 1844 in Alphen en Riel, married 22 May 1889 to Pieter Brikr.
Daughter Petronella Carolina Morgenstern, born in
Alphen en Riel, date unknown, married 28 Januari 1874 to Antonius Gerardus Schopmeijer.
There are no "Morgestern" records in this database, so it is without doubt written with the 'n'.
Louis
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Louis van Dompselaar
Police Constable
Username: Etaoin
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 8:21 am: |
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I'm still a bit puzzled by the brother listed by Shelden as "Maran", correcting Connel and Evans's "Maria A.". "Maran" is not a Dutch name. Closest Dutch names that come to mind are Harmen, Herman(us) and Marinus. Although he may of course have changed his name on moving to England.
Since my first post I have also found the marriage certificate of Petrus Morgenstern. He is listed as Pieter Morgenstern and married Anna Cornelia van der Minne on 29 August 1837.
An interesting but totally unrelated find is that a Maria A. Morgenstern did exist. She was Maria Adriana Morgenstern, born 1802, died 2 Januari 1879 and was Petrus/Pieter Morgenstern's sister.
I should note that since the online records currently hold mostly marriage certificates and some death certificates, finding "Maran" in there will not be possible. |
Louis van Dompselaar
Police Constable
Username: Etaoin
Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 7:06 am: |
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I've put up a small family tree of the Adrianus Lucas Morgenstern line at:
http://www.dompselaar.org/morgenstern.html
Louis |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 96
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 4:43 pm: |
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In the light of Louis' excellent research on the Morgenstern's, I am now of the opinion that Adrienus or Thomas Morganstern could be the man that knew Mary Jane Kelly sometime between 1884 to 1886.
Can anyone find him on an 1891 census index for East London?
His age would be about 41 to 43?
Thanks
Neal |
Louis van Dompselaar
Police Constable
Username: Etaoin
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 9:05 am: |
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At least his brother seems to be there, an "M? Morgensteine", aged 37, in Fulham. Florence also appears as Morgensteine, aged 30.
(Message edited by etaoin on January 07, 2004) |
Louis van Dompselaar
Police Constable
Username: Etaoin
Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 9:34 am: |
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Also, 'stein' if, or course, is German for 'stone'. So maybe that's how the name differnce came about.
Anyway, for Casebook readers' information: I was contacted by a living relative of the Morgensterns who had discovered that the Thomas Morganstern listed as a 51-year old widow appearing on the 1901 census is in fact the same as Adrianus Morgenstern. The birth certificate of (one of his?) daughters of 1877 names him as Arjaan and her marriage certificate of 1897 calls him Thomas. As he appears as "Nat B Sub" on the 1901 census he might have changed his name on naturalization, although one would think "Adrian" would be English enough for the registration officer.
So as Neal suggested to me, a case can be made for this Morgenstern if we can find him to be widowed around the right time, either by digging up a death certificate for his wife, or getting circumstantial evidence by tracing him as a widow in the 1891 census.
This does of course not exclude the possibility that he had seperated from this wife between 1884 en 1886 and was widowed later.
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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 97
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 3:10 pm: |
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I feel that the the death entry for an Antonettea Morgenstern for June book 1884 at Hackney is likely to be his wife? |
Louis van Dompselaar
Sergeant
Username: Etaoin
Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 4:08 pm: |
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I'm sure it is. That forename and surname combination must be uncommon enough in London,
if not actually unique.
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Fiona Rule
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 2:15 pm: |
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Hi - Further to the Morgenstern discussion, while doing some research at the Metropolitan Archive, I discovered a Simon Marganstern (sic) who ran a registered common lodging house at 2 Plumber's Row, Mile End Old Town from 1872 - 1883. Marganstern himself lived at number 1 Plumber's Row.
I tried to track this man down on the 1871 census but the relevant page is totally illegible. He does not appear in the 1881 census alhough his lodging house was still in business.
I believe the Morgensterns discussed above lived in Fulham; I hope that this new information goes some way to prove that there were people of the same surname living in the East End - possibly relatives of Adrianus?
Kind regards - Fiona
BTW, Plumber's Row was situated opposite Berner Street, off Commercial Road East. |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 98
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 5:42 pm: |
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Hi Fiona, the Morgenstern variant spellings on the 1901 census appear to have Russian connections especially the one called Simon Morganstein 44. |
Fiona Rule
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 6:38 am: |
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Hi Neal - Thanks for the details on Simon Morganstein. Sadly, I can't seem to locate him on the 1881 census despite using numerous variations on the surname.
The surname Morganstone/stein/stern etc seems to originate from Russia, Germany and Holland. I'm presuming its Jewish (only because of the TV series "Rhoda"!)
Kind regards - Fiona |
Dave Stevenson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 5:08 pm: |
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Whilst I have no wish to muddy the waters there was another Morgenstern family living in the 'East End' in 1881. The father John, a baker, was of German origins. The interesting bit is that the family lived in Goldsmith Row which is very near the Imperial Gas Works just north of Hackney Road (not sure what the Gas Works are called now). Also it would appear that his 2 sons George and John both died in the March quarter of 1884. Maybe just enough to tip a man over the edge and lead him to live with another woman!!
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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 113
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 12:26 pm: |
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Adrienus Morgenstern appears again on the 1st August 1892 as the father of Anna Kornelia Morgenstern when she was married to George Biscardine at St Peter, Limehouse.
Her address possibly the same as her father's was 7 Garford Street, Limehouse. They were not there on the previous year's census. Adrienus was still a gas stoker, the nearest gasworks at that time looks to be Stepney Gasworks. It makes Adrienus Morganstern the most likely candidate for Kelly's man. |
grantfenwick
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:52 am: |
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If this meesage board is still running, I am Thomas Morgansterns great great grandson. I have heard a story that Wilhelmina, when she was a child, was brought up in a brothel in Limehouse. The marriage mentioned in 1897 was my great grandmother in Limehouse who married Thomas Fenwick. |
Debra J. Arif
Police Constable
Username: Dj
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 8:51 am: |
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Is there anyone who can make out the adress of this Jacob Morganstein I found a while ago.
His daughters, one named Rebecca, were in attendance at the Jews Free School in March 1888.
All other's listed have East End addresses.
I cannot find any trace of them on a census.
It seems to be 48 ?????? St.
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 817
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 9:13 am: |
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It looks like "Everard St" to me.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4370
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 9:43 am: |
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Hi Debra
Yes, there was an Everard St in St George in the East. Ancestry seem to be listing the people living at No.50 as living at No. 49 for 1881.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 10:18 am: |
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Hi Debra
I have only been able to find one trace of Jacob Morganstein - that was in the 1901 census:
1901
67 Ellen Street, St George in the East
Head: Jacob Morganstein aged 47 born Poland (British Subject) - Hebrew teacher
Wife: Miriam Morganstein aged 48 born Poland
Children:
Rebceka aged 20 born Poland - Clerk at fur factory
Morris aged 10 born St. George's
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4372
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
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Debra, I think probably the same family as Chris's one, was living in 1891 at 48 Everard St.
The surname is listed as "Morgensten."
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1902
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 11:32 am: |
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Hi Robert
Yes, I am sure this is the same family:
1891
48 Everard Street, St George in the East
Head: Jacob Morgansten aged 39 born Russia - Hebrew teacher
Wife: Miriam Morgansten aged 39 born Russia
Children:
Leah aged 19 - Tailoress
Milly aged 15 - Tailoress
Rebecca aged 12
Annie aged 10
Hyman aged 7
All the above children born in Russia
Morris aged 3 months born London |
Debra J. Arif
Police Constable
Username: Dj
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
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Thanks Robert,Chris and Chris
I would never have seen that as 'Everard' I was looking for something beginning Ea!
It looks like the right family, the other daughters name appears to be Annie now I have looked closer and I didn't see this before but their dates of birth are given too ,Rebecca March 81 and Annie August 79, which sort of fits.
Thanks very much
Debra |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 572
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 2:07 pm: |
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I come to this thread late. It sounds fascinating. What are we digging up here? Is one of the Morgansteins a suspect? Why the interest in this family? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4373
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 2:14 pm: |
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Hi Diana
It's to do with the "Morganstone" of Mary Kelly.
Robert |
Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 116
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 2:15 pm: |
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Israel Schwatrz lived at 22 Ellen St., one street south of Everard.
(Message edited by SNelson on April 10, 2005) |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
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Why do Ripperologists so love new empirical possibilities? The minute somebody out in South Succotash says that Morganstein may have done it, every ear perks right up. This isn't a love of thinking, it's a love of any old miscellaneous junk buried in the backs of forgotten closets. People, I think, are basically snoops, and forever seek to sniff the other guy's dirty laundry. There's nothing significant to this, however; it's essentially fetishistic. The real possibilities are in your own mind.
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Debra J. Arif
Police Constable
Username: Dj
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:06 pm: |
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D.Radka
I don't recall anyone on this particular thread saying that "Morganstein may have done it" |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:41 pm: |
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Ms Arif wrote:
"I don't recall anyone on this particular thread saying that "Morganstein may have done it""
>>I think your are trying to cover up your bad habits, along with those of others, Ms Arif. Ms Comer said it. She wrote: "I come to this thread late. It sounds fascinating. What are we digging up here? Is one of the Morgansteins a suspect? Why the interest in this family?"
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Debra J. Arif
Police Constable
Username: Dj
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 12:17 pm: |
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D. Radka
I am sure it's not the worst bad habit I have.
Please don't call me Ms, it makes me sound like a 90 year old spinster.
Debra |
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 338
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 10:53 am: |
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Mr Radka, I have taken no part in this discussion, but I find it fascinating. surely anyone approaching the case with an open mind, is going to be struck by the enigma of Mary Kelly and to want to explore what little is known of her; to try to place her in the public record (the census, marriage or birth registers etc). This in turn may throw light on her life and motives for her killing.
In exactly the same way, the more we can learn about Druitt, or the links Kosminski may have had to JH Levy, may throw intense light on the case.
I know that you, Mr Radka, believe that you have solved the case and left no gaps or anything unexplained. Alas, your theory fails to convince me and others, and we have to toil (albeit less arrogantly and more demandlingly) in the fields of scholarship, discussion and research.
There is no magic formula here, no wand to wave and all is done. Truth emerges slowly and gradually from the small pieces and the scraps of evidence.
The investigation of the Morganstone links are a valuable part of this, if not interesting for their own sake (as I find them).
Phil |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 626
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 3:21 pm: |
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David,
Someone asking if Morganstone was a suspect is not the same as someone saying Morganstone may have done it. One is a question, trying to find out whether something is true or not. The other is a statement trying to assert that something is true.
It'd probably be a good idea to actually read the posts for understanding before you tried to ridicule people so you could avoid the whole chronic foot in mouth disease you have going on.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
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