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Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 517
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 1:05 pm: |       |
Hi Sarah,
You wrote to me:
‘I thought all your posts were basically saying this.’
Well, either I have written that Joe couldn’t have been Jack or I haven’t. What is there to think about?
All my posts have basically asked for evidence that Joe was Jack. You evidently misinterpreted this as being the same as saying he couldn’t have been. Now you know this is not what I was ‘basically’ saying at all, we can move on.
Joe was routinely suspected after Mary’s murder, presumably on account of his close relationship to the deceased. I don’t know what else there is to understand about this. He was asked to give an account of himself, in the course of police enquiries, which they found to be satisfactory. A guilty Joe would need to have fabricated it, regardless of when Mary actually died. (He would hardly have relied on a wrong time of death being recorded and finally accepted, even if he was aware of what time that might be.)
If anyone wants to argue that Joe did fabricate his account, some evidence of how he went about satisfying the police would be nice.
Love,
Caz
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Natalie Severn
Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 29
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 3:33 pm: | |
Sarah what makes you say that the movements of Montague Druitt are completely accounted for?
He was playing cricket a few miles from where Annie Chapmans was found but it was at least five hours after and the train service to Blackheath was probably better than today either from Whitechapel or from embankment where he had chambers.The rest of the information we have is unproven such as being present at an appeal in the West country the day after Eddowes and Stride"s bodies were found.
The mystery for me is why this was found on the internal police files in a report of Macnaghten"s
for Scotland Yard.Now an internal memorandum by the chief constable of police at the time is not just some idle boast for public consumption. He also seebs to have held fast to his belief throughout his life "on the basis of private information-[who from?]"-in other words he is still as good as any other to be JtR.Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 3:48 pm: | |
Hi Caz, I had never really considered Joe seriously until I began to read these threads.I was beginning to see how he could be considered a strong suspect-at least for MJK-and still think it possible actually but your arguements are very much reinforcing my original misgivings
about him being JtR viz the fact that as a strong suspect initially by the police they let him go. This told me they would have searched his room
quizzed those that knew him and checked him out most thoroughly before letting him go.They were desperate for a conviction and had they had the slightest doubt that Joe was Jack they would have held him.Best Natalie |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 449
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 4:58 pm: | |
Hi Natalie,
The Question is Why did they discount Barnett, as a suspect?,
Answer.. Because they received imformation on the 9th November, which had them believing they were looking for a vastly different person.
Thus he escaped the net.
I am sorry to appear vague, but I cannot release explanations, at this stage.
Richard. |
Natalie Severn
Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 5:51 pm: | |
Hi Richard,I am very interested in this.Indeed it sounds a bit likr the fiasco over Sutcliffe-dismissing him as a suspect bcause they were looking for someone with a different accent.
The other thing that works against him for me is that he and Mary were an item during some of the murders and I cant see a serial killer such a crazed man coping with that intimacy for the 15 months they lived together.
Also just considering Mary herself She seems to have been an alcoholic.If this was the case she would have been nobody"s fool in the areas of insight and intuition despite the maudlin singing.
She would I imagine have been strong and tough thinking over Joe and more than a little manipulative.I therefore doubt she would have fallen into his clutches.I really do. But I admit its possible and look forward to your book very much indeed.Best Natalie. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 452
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 3:25 am: | |
Hi Natalie,
I Believe all Mary jane saw in Barnett,was a means of support , and a place to stay,
She saw him as a kind,but rather pitiful soul, that on more then one occasion, did his utmost to scare the living daylights out of her.
Two statememts come to mind.
'Ill be sorry to leave joe, as he has been good to me'
'I cant bear the man'
In our book a lot of new interpretations of their life together will be revealed, and it will be completely different to previous ideas.
To sum up, Mary Jane had feelings for Joe, but only guilty concious, she could not stand his preaching about living immorally, it scared her, but she saw him no more,then a bit strange at times, I believe she led her life, how she wanted , when she wanted, and there is some pointer to her not infact residing at millers court, all of the time.
Richard.
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Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 287
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 7:24 pm: | |
Richard, Mary knew how to pull Joe's strings to get what she wanted, and how to push his buttons when she didnt get what she thought she deserved.
Joe did everything he could to hold on to her, only it wasn't good enough for her. If Mary had any feelings at all for Joe, when he lost his job she would have helped out, rather than remind him that he could be replaced by the next person who had the means to buy her company for the evening.
Between what he could make at odd jobs and what she could make by any other trade the two could have lived comfortably if that was their intention. When two people want their relationship to work under difficult times they pull their resourses together, not fight between the two of them (for any reason not just over money).
Shannon |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 454
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 2:20 am: | |
Hi Shannon.
I Have no doubt that Mary Jane was a user, I believe there was a lot going on in her life, that needs analyzing, which I am trying to do in Our Millers court chapter
Her character intriques me, she is always described as a pleasant woman, very humble when not in drink, the nicest person you could ever meet.
I have known some real hard cases, that were exactly the same, the nicest blokes, but as soon as they had a few they became darn right nasty.
This is proberly what Kelly was, quiet as a mouse, until a few gins, then loud mouthed, and bad tempered, when intoxicated.
The reason why they got on [ or at least tolerated] each other, was proberly because they were both Dr J and Mr Hyde personalitys.
Richard. |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 247
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 9:05 am: | |
Caz,
Everything I have written contains good reasons as to why I believe Joe could have been Jack. You keep replying as if I haven't written anything of the sort which is blatantly untrue. I don't know what else you can ask of me. I can't prove that something none of us were there to witness happened, that is just stupid. Our own theories are all we have and all we ever will have.
I also see Natalie bringing up the one and only weak reason for him not being Jack once again. Just because the police let him go he OBVIOUSLY couldn't have been Jack. I think that we are forgetting that Joe was actually a clever man who was well educated, he wasn't just some man who was too stupid to know how to lie convincingly. How many people are going to go around and tell the police what they have done? Of course they would lie and some people are extremely good liars.
I ask one more, someone give me a decent reason for Joe not being Jack.
Sarah |
Natalie Severn
Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 1:29 pm: | |
hi everyone machine has to go for repair will follow thread if possibl |
Natalie Severn
Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 35
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 2:27 pm: | |
Hi Richard,just a question or two as the machine is playing up.Do you see this pair as having a love affair?Do you see Joe as the one driven to commit a crime of passion?
If he was then its unlikely that he was either schizophrenic[which I tend to think Jack might have been]or psychopathic in either of which cases he would have been most unlikely to have killed for love of Mary.If you see him as your average lover of that period then he could I guess have killed Mary in a fit of rage--because he loved her and was fed up with the way she was treating him.But why all the others? This idea of him being a red blooded hot headed male doesnt tally with the grossly perverse murders JtR performed in my view.Best Natalie[hope machine lasts long enough to see how thread develops-or not!] |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 455
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 4:01 am: | |
Hi Natalie,
I do not see their relationship , being a love affair, at least not on Mary Janes part, I believe it was Barnetts extreme frustration, that resulted in these murders,the fact that she would not pay heed to his repeated warnings, her character implies, she simply laughed off any impending dangers, even though she was scared out of her mind.
I believe he had a emmence dislike of prostitutes before he met Mary, that moderated when he discovered her background, and her implying that circumstances, forced her into that lifestyle.
It was only when she returned to her ways, proberly july-august 88, that his true feelings returned , and the frustrations within him came forth. She would not listen to his verbal pleas, so he tried a more terrifying approach, by Murdering Tabram,and stabbing her thirty nine time
[Significant in my mind as you may well know]
I do not believe he mutalated the others for pure homicidal desire, but on purpose to create the terror that engulved Whitechapel, in a desperate attempt to keep Kelly of the path of evil. as he saw it.
When this clearly failed , he saw her as pure evil, and he premeditated her death to occur on the 9th November88, and she was to die ,on the very same bed that they once shared.
After her death, he managed ,proberly to his extreme amazement to escape immense suspicion,and the murders were over.
'If it were not for the Kelly woman , none of these murders would have happened' sums the case up.
Regards Richard.
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Natalie Severn
Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 11:07 am: | |
Hi Richard,thanks for a very considered reply.
Maybe I cant imagine a girl like Mary not being able to see right through him.What you are saying is he fooled her about who he was and that Mary had shut her eyes to or rather felt herself unlikely to become a victim that such a thing couldnt happen to her-.But hang on -this person who she is living with is quarreling with,sharing her life and bed with-is actually-"JACK THE RIPPER".I somehow think she would have scented him out -maybe when she was in one of her inebbriated states and either made a run for it or tried to get police protection and even try to claim the reward.Well maybe she intended these things but I cant say Im convinced. Thanks for your thoughts on this Richard its certainly a novel scenario.Best Natalie. |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 254
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 6:35 am: | |
Natalie,
I don't think Joe fooled Mary into thinking he was someone else. I also disagree with Richard's idea that he premeditated her murder as I believe her death occurred after an argument with Joe or during one on the spur of the moment.
I do agree though that, if Joe was the Ripper, he was killing the other prostitutes to scare Mary.
Sarah |
Natalie Severn
Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 40
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 7:12 am: | |
Sarah-The only scenario I can see at the present time that Joe might be in isone where he kills Mary in rage and then tries to cover his tracks by a copy-cat mutilation to throw the blame onto JtR.Even this has obvious flaws because it would mean that he got up in the middle of the night raced round had a terrific row[neither of which anyone saw or heard]and then the rest before pulling himself together dusting himself down
and getting his act together to fool the police.
If it was premeditated he might arrived to find her "busy" kept watch until her client had gone[and where G.H. wouldnt have seen him] and when he had the all clear etc
The part I find contradictions in though is where Joe is busy on behalf of a great love for his Mary
and in order to save her from her degradation finding at dead of night a group of "unfortunates" to murder and mutilate in such a way as to make history and make himself the most hunted man in the world at the time.I can"t see this bit at all.JtR is so unlikely to have harboured such a sentiment as you bestow on Joe [a great crime of passion /l"amour fou] as to be unbelievable.I can"t see Jack as ever having a woman at all------unless it was some-one as odd in her way as he was.And certainly not to risk his neck for in the bizarre way he chose.Best Natalie |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 258
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 7:26 am: | |
Natalie,
I know this is going to sound corny but unfortunately it's true. Love can make people do some very strange things. I can personally see him doing all those things for Mary if he loved her enough. I agree that it may have been premeditated but only in as much that, he thought to do it that same night just before going to Mary's or on the way to her place.
Sarah |
Natalie Severn
Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 42
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 8:13 am: | |
O.K.Sarah perhaps Joe did kill Mary.But isnt there a mismatch between this Joe who is capable of normal loving feelings forMary[albeit his temper flairs to murderous rage at times] and a cold clinical Joe who without as much as a blink
cooly disembowels and steals bloody trophies ?
But you may be right.Natalie |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 259
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 9:43 am: | |
Natalie,
I see no mis-match. People are capable of having more than one type of personality. One moment someone can be normal and the next they can be monsters. They are many disorders that he could have had, one of the main ones is Schizophrenia or Multiple Personality Disorder. People with the latter have, as it sounds, more than one personality. Most Schizo's or Psychopaths out there are normal one minute and then can turn into something completely different the next.
Sarah |
Natalie Severn
Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 44
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 12:56 pm: | |
Sarah.I have heard about this multple personality disorder but know nothing about it.Could you perhaps direct me to some reading material?
As far as schizophrenia is concerned the personality stays the same.The person has a schizoid personality which is usually cool and a bit detached from the cut and thrust of life is often keen on the symbolic areas of a religion or mythology and is idealistic.When the schizoid personality becomes disturbed the symbolism takes on powers in the persons head so that they often believe they are being instructed by an outside
power hence the expression"hearing voices".Erin and others have dealt with this in a more scientific way than I am able to but what I do know is that the person stays with a similar personality whether they are experiencing a psychosis or in remission.Also the murders that you read about in the papers involving frenzied attacks are usually committed by individuals with this illness though I hasten to add that because a person may suffer from schizophrenia it most definitely does not mean thay will automatically become murderous or anything like that especially these days when drug medication can return the person to a reasonably balanced and successful person.Even in Victorian times before all these drugs were available numbers of people with the illness were quite harmless.But under direction from this outside force [as perceived by them in their deluded state of mind]the person can become very dangerous indeed.The other thing that comes to mind is that such individuals are not known for their passionate sex lives or real love affairs as much as their search for a soul mate
something that they might well long for but not achieve such is their fragile hold on reality.
Does this sound like Joe?He has always come across to me as a fairly straightforward bloke who wasnt happy sharing his woman with all and sundry.
Best Natalie |
Angelina Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 12:35 pm: | |
Hi All,
Just wondering if anyone has tried to do any research to find out if any other girls in the area and around mary's age (with red hair, of course) went missing around the time of MJK's murder??
This has probably already been asked, but I'm pretty new to this message board.
Thanks |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 266
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 6:15 am: | |
Angelina,
That's a good point. I don't know if it's already been looked into. I don't know if we could guarantee that any girl had red hair though.
Natalie,
Go to http://www.spiritlink.com/scrmpd.html, this is quite helpful.
Sarah |
Angelina Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 12:25 pm: | |
Sarah,
You are right about the red hair~~with all the hair dying that went on, you never know. I will check into missing persons and see how far I can trace back and if I can find anything around that time. I'll let you know what I come up with.
Angelina |
Natalie Severn
Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 47
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 3:17 pm: | |
Sarah thanks I"ll look this up.Natalie. |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 273
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 9:07 am: | |
Angelina,
That's a good idea. It would be interesting to find something on this.
Sarah |
Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 2:44 am: | |
Natalie,
Be warned that the site linked to above is not a reputable source of information on multiple personality disorder. It's a site about psychic phenomena, not science or psychology.
The existence of MPD is being seriously debated by those in the field. Here is a good article on the topic (pro and con):
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mpd_did3.htm
(Google can give you other pages too.)
I'm not sure though what relevance it'd have to discussing Jack the Ripper, though, as if you believe MPD is real, then it could apply to pretty much anyone and there'd be no real way to tell, so it could support just about any suspect and not any specific one more than others. |
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