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Sarah
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 4:23 am: |       |
Hi Maryanne,
Just one point about ur last post. You said that possibly the midwife escaped in MJK's clothes, however Mrs Maxwell said that it was MJK she saw but she was wearing clothes she didn't recognise. Therefore, I don't see how it could have been anyone else in MJK's clothes as prostitutes didn't have much money for new clothes and MJK's clothes would have been easily recognisable. |
luxy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 5:47 am: | |
Hi
has anyone ever thought of a Mary Jane MacKelly of Limerick?
Perhaps this is a job for Chris Scott |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 683
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 5:03 am: | |
Hi luxy
Intrigued by your message above so ran the MacKelly name (and variants) through the 1881 census. The only results were:
McKelley - 2 records, both male. Peter (aged 18) and Patrick (aged 35) both born in Ireland, living in a Lodging House in Shropshire
McKelly (also listed as "or McNelly") - 4 records.
Michael aged 60, Bridget aged 50 (both born in Roscommon, Ireland) and their children Michael aged 15 and Catherine aged 9, both born in Stafford. Family living at Stoke on Trent, Staffordshire.
Regards
Chris |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 357
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 10:07 am: | |
Hi Chris
Edwin Woodhall in his 1937 book JACK THE RIPPER, OR WHEN LONDON WALKED IN TERROR, calls MJK, Mary Jane Taylor. Where he came up with this name is a never explained. Perhaps this is a name worth running.
All The Best
Gary |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 684
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 10:44 am: | |
In the 1881 census there are 2 Mary Jane Taylor entries of approximately correct age range who are listed as born in Ireland.
1) aged 20, born Ireland, unmarried, cook in the household of James Radford, a miller and corn merchant of Raby House, Raby, Cheshire
2) aged 15, born Ireland, unmarried, a machinist living with her uncle, Joseph Borris, at 107 St Leonard Street, London
regards
Chris |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 358
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 11:04 am: | |
Hi Chris
Thanks for the quick work.
All The Best
Gary |
Luxy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 12:37 pm: | |
Thanks a lot, Chris.
Warm regards
Luxy
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Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 10:16 am: | |
Maryanne,
I don't know if you come on these boards anymore, but I'll write this anyway and for anyone else who's interested. I wrote earlier about Mary having the nicknames of Black Mary and Fair Emma, well this is where I got it from:-
"Black Mary" was unlike the other victims. At 25 she was young and attractive, and as a prostitute would have better served the prestigious West End clients as opposed to working the grim streets of the East End. Mary was born in Limerick, Ireland and moved to Wales where she married a collier who was tragically killed in a pit disaster. After turning to prostitution in Cardiff, she moved south to London where she worked in a West End brothel. "Fair Emma" came to lodge at various abodes around Dorset Street, London, the "Wicked Quarter Mile", and it was at Millers Court that she was found brutally murdered. She was buried at Walthamstow R.C. cemetery on 19th November."
Also has anyone else heard of Mary working in a West End brothel before going to Whitechapel? |
luxy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 8:41 am: | |
Hello
Just suppose mrs Maxwell is right and she saw and spoke MJ on the day in question. There's a good chance that her testimony was correct. MJ must have been a striking figure although she was dressed in worn-out clothes. Question is what could have happened in MJ's room that famous night. Considering the testimony of G.Hutchinson to be true, MJ must have got rid of her blotchy faced client (maybe she used to preserve an hour per client) The astrakhan man was on her hook from 2 to 3 a.m. She was on the streets again at 3 and she could have subrent her room to a soulmate or a mr kinky with his coy mistress. Back in her room - some hours later - she found the mutilated corpse and realised she was in very deep trouble: she would be charged with murder. To her, the only thing to cope with this tricky business was to take the place of the poor soul in her bed.
She took a knife (there must have been a knife in her ramshackle cupboard, finished Jack's work and smashed the face beyond recognition, saving the eyes and the hair (the only refrences that could point to her. I can't believe Jack would have spared the eyes and the beautiful hair from his hungry knife. Totally upset Mary fled into the streets and puked. That's when she met Mrs. Maxwell and she realized she had to change clothes. She went back to her room and took some clothes from her own and some of the victim. She folded the clothes she used to wear and put them on the chair. Then she burned all the other clothes in her room, so it would be obvious it was her body that was lying on the bed.
And then ... she probably crossed the river and fled to her friend in the Elephant and Castle district.
She cut and dyed her hair, changed clothes and name and took up her old business and perhaps she went back to Ireland ...
It's strange Mary's mother hasn't sent any letter
to her daughter anymore. Mr. McCarthy would have seen the letter and would have contacted press or police. Perhaps Mother (McCarthy?)Kelly was informed about what happened the 9th of November
1888. Se non e vero ...
Luxy |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 412
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 3:27 pm: | |
Hi Luxy
you are thinking exactly what I was thinking mid 1970s, I sent a script to a well known newspaper, with similar ideas, at the time , with all the imformation, availiable, i considered it extremely plausible, unfortunately I was beaten to the punch, by John BrookeS Barrys good publication ' The Michalmas Girls' Which as Colin wilson wrote to me was an amazing coincedence, as I had been corresponding with colin, for some time, on this possibility.
To be beaten to the punch on that occasion I Accept, possible at the time[ mid 1970s] but with all the imformation that has come to light, i would doubt that scenero actually occured.
But Luxy. I am not too set in my ways to discuss, that way of thinking, dispite its unlikely happening.
Regards Richard. |
luxy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 4:11 am: | |
Hi Richard
Can you please sketch me in broad outlines what made you change your mind about MJ escaping the Ripper's knife.
Warm regards
luxy |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 4:18 am: | |
Hello All,
All of JTR's victims could easily be identified as he left the faces alone, except for small cuts under Catherine Eddowes's eyes. Mary Kelly? had her face completely removed. Doesn't that tell us something?
In the 1891 census we see a John Kelly living in the very same room. Strange that.
A. |
Sarah Long
Police Constable
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 6:10 am: | |
Andy,
For the simple minded (ahem, me), could you say what you are suggesting. I think I know but I don't what to comment in case I'm wrong. |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 2:38 pm: | |
Hello Sarah,
We do not believe the body at 13, Millers Court was MJK. For a start Caroline Maxwell should not be dismissed. Dorset Street was less the 20ft wide, so she could hardly be mistaken re seeing Kelly, also other witnesses came forward claiming the same. Joseph Barnett identified Kelly by her hair only or did he say by her eyes only or even by her ears??? It is very unclear. No more letters arrived from Ireland for Kelly again. No relatives attended the funeral. Considering Police officer Walter Dew's comments that 'Kelly was very well known to me, often seen parading about Commercial Street in the company of several other women'. No one can honestly say she did not have quite a presence in the area, so why the problem with no real positive I.D?
As we say in our book and stick to, Kelly was related to landlord John McCarthy, hence the several weeks owed rent money.
We have a major piece of research being made public for the first time on Kelly in the 50th issue of Ripperologist!
A&S. |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 245
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 4:46 pm: | |
Andy & Sue, I agree with you as far as Caroline Maxwell (and Maurice Lewis) not being dismissed as a credible witness to having seen MJK after the time of death was fixed by (the inept) Dr Phillips. However, I do believe it was actually MJK who was killed.
As mutilated as her body was, there is still enough remains for someone close to her to be able to identify her (length and colour of her hair, colour of her eyes, and other basic features)
Joe Barnett knew it was her, not by ears, eyes, or hair; but because he is the one who killed her.
McCarthy would have recognized enough of her features to make a positive ID had Joe not done so.
Shannon |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1281
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 5:19 pm: | |
Hi Shannon
I thought that McCarthy did make a positive ID - though I can't imagine how he managed it.
Robert |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 246
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
Robert, Yes, your correct about McCarthy. McCarthy stated at the inquest, "I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly, and had no doubt at all about her identity." Had Joe Barnett not made the official identification McCarthy could have...
Shannon |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1282
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 4:33 am: | |
Hi Shannon
I'm intrigued by the fact that the police still asked Hutchinson to view the body. Did they have residual doubts about Barnett's and McCarthy's identifications?
Robert |
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 5:13 am: | |
Andy & Sue,
I am glad to finally learn that I am not alone in thinking Mary survived. I think there is more evidence pointing towards the fact that she wasn't killed more than she was. There are too many factors here and too many people seem to ignore them out of convenience. It seems that it is too easy to say that Mary was killed but I will always disagree. I even started to think how, even if Barnett was JTR he could have killed the wrong person, but I wont go into that right now but it was possible. |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 375
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 8:56 am: | |
Shannon,
So Barnett didnt identify her by her ears or eyes?
If anyone has noted, Marys eyes are wide open (would that blow a hole in the killing whilst she sleeps theory?) so is it implauseable that this is how Joe identified her?
Joe didnt kill Mary...he was playing cards. I think someone is suffering from 'Casus Solvedus'. I believe a certain US authoress came down with the same sydrome this time last year.
Oh you Cheeky Monty
 |
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 9:26 am: | |
Monty,
He was only playing cards until midnight. I don't think anyone on here is saying that this is closed at all. |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 377
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 11:07 am: | |
Sarah,
Joe Barnett knew it was her, not by ears, eyes, or hair; but because he is the one who killed her.
No ones saying what ?
Yes, he was only playing card till midnight THEN HE WENT TO BED.
Monty
 |
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 11:34 am: | |
Monty, Ok I didn't see that. How do you know he went to bed? Even if he did, was someone watching him all night? Although if he did kill her he would be able to identify her without looking at any of her features. |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 383
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 11:44 am: | |
Sarah,
If Joe was staying at Bullers, a lodging house then...
a) I would assume the Police would have checked this out to confirm his alibi.
b) I cannot see Joe forking out for a bed then sneaking off...especially as he is unemployed at that time.
c) If he did sneak off then the Govenor of the lodgings wouldnt have been too happy. Its a space he could have filled and
d) Shouldnt you be at work right now ??
Yes, IF he did kill her it would explain why he was so certain it was Mary. I concede that.
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 6:52 am: | |
Monty,
a) Yes this is true but if he had SNEAKED out people would have backed up his alibi unless he killed her in the morning (but I'm not sure about this).
b) This is true, I can't deny it, but maybe he had every intention of going to bed but while lying there he was getting so worked up about Mary that he just couldn't sleep.
c) Yup, but if the govenor didn't know then how could he get mad about it.
d) I am....and working really hard!!
Sarah |
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