| Author |
Message |
    
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2734
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 11:33 am: |       |
According to Adrian Morris, the print entitled "The Fisherman's Widow" - the only piece of art found in Mary Kelly's room - is actually a copy of Frank Bramley's "A Hopeless Dawn" (1888). Here's a clear picture of that painting, courtesy of the BBC:
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 213
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 11:52 am: | |
Hi Spry
Many thanks for that- this painting is in the Tate gallery and their online gallery has this note about it:
A Hopeless Dawn was painted at
Newlyn, Cornwall, and exhibited at
the Royal Academy in London in 1888, with a passage from John Ruskin’s
The Harbours of England. This dwelt
on the effort and sorrow of the lives of fishermen and their families, yet offered consolation in the thought of Christ’s
hand being ‘at the helm of every lonely boat, through starless night and hopeless dawn’. An open bible lies on the window seat beside the fisherman’s mother, who is comforting his young wife; both have given up hope of his return after waiting for a day and a night.
The BBc site which features it has this to say:
A fisherman’s wife and mother have kept vigil all night, reading the Bible and waiting in vain for his return. Bramley contrasts the bleak early morning light with the flickering candle on the table, while on the window-ledge a candle has gone out, symbolising the fisherman’s death. Outside the window, the restless storm continues mercilessly; the cracked panes of glass suggests humanity’s fragility in contrast to the power and terrible indifference of the raging sea.
|
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 185
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 12:16 pm: | |
Thanks Stephen,
I have always wondered what The Fishermans Widow, looked like, it never dawned on me it was infact `A hopeless dawn`
Great Post.
Richard. |
Bob Hinton
Detective Sergeant
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 6:30 pm: | |
I don't quite follow this. If the picture is called A Hopeless Dawn Where does The Fisherman's Widow come from.
Also if Hopeless Dawn was only exhibited in 1888 they would have to have moved pretty sharply to get copies made and for a copy to end up on MJK's wall.
How about "The Fishermans Wooing" by Eugene De Blass as a candidate. Its far more the type of picture I would have thought MJK to have had Hopeless Dawn looks so - well hopeless!
Bob |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 186
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 3:45 am: | |
Bob,
That was my worry also,the time for this print to have appeared in Kellys room would appear limited.
I am not fully convinced that the picture shown is the print in Kellys room , although I would like to believe it to be.
Richard. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Detective Sergeant
Username: Caz
Post Number: 109
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 4:31 am: | |
If A Hopeless Dawn was in Mary's room, I think the tragic subject matter makes perfect sense whether Mary really did have a husband who was taken from her in a mining accident or not. If true, she would have had every reason to empathise with the widow in the picture. And even if the tale was a tall one, told to fill a gap in her mysterious past and earn her some respect and sympathy, some of the pity inspired by the image of these two women would have rubbed off on Mary and helped the tale along.
Love,
Caz |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 214
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 8:05 am: | |
Hi all
Of course one point is that the print (whatever it was) was in Mary's ROOM - that does not necessarily mean it was hers or was chosen by her or relected some psychological point in her makeup. It is just as likely it was a cheap print provided by McCarthy or left by a previous tenant. Although if that is the case I must admit it weakens the case for it being the Bramley picture because of its date of painting
Chris S |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 215
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 8:10 am: | |
Thinking about this matter of the print in Kelly's room I suddenly remembered the role it played in the 1988 Lorimar version of the story, the one starring Michael Caine as Abberline. But in this version of events the print was of a knight in armour holding up a sword. They tied this in by making their frantically camp version of Lees see it in one of his visions and also tied it in with a drawing of Mansfield made for his forthcoming role of Richard III. I assume that this (like so much in this telling of the tale) was pure invention but thought it might be of interest
Chris S |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2736
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 8:17 am: | |
Again, according to Adrian Morris (Ripperologist #3), prints of this painting were likely to have been produced and sold at the Royal Academy, where it was exhibited in 1888. Visitors to the gallery would have been able to pick one up.
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper |
Wolf Vanderlinden
Sergeant
Username: Wolf
Post Number: 19
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 10:00 am: | |
I too have to wonder about the speed that a print of this painting would make it to Mary Kelly's wall. It also seems to me that the one in Miller's Court was described as a "cheap print". Would the R.A. reproduce cheap prints? Who knows. As for the subject matter being too depressing we are looking at it using a modern eye. To the Victorians this was high art and they loved such maudlin scenes, proving the adage that there is no accounting for taste, especially since tastes have changed so drastically in the last hundred years or so.
Denis Meikle in his book Jack the Ripper the Murders and the Movies suggests that Evariste Luminais' "The Widow," subtitled "A Fishing Family," is a likely candidate for the print. It too is somewhat depressing in its outlook.
Wolf. |
Adrian Morris
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 6:51 pm: | |
For the record. I contacted the Royal Academy and other institutions and they confirmed this. I prefer to take their word.
Producing copies would be no great trial.
What's the problem? |
Caroline Anne Morris
Detective Sergeant
Username: Caz
Post Number: 117
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 3:52 am: | |
And in my opinion it wouldn't make any difference to my previous point whether the pic was Mary's choice or someone else's - once there on the wall, I can see why she would be happy for it to remain there, in view of her own tale of tragic widowhood.
See you tomorrow, Adrian? Fancy a curry?
Have a great weekend all.
Love,
Caz |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 3:19 pm: | |
Are you cooking Caz? We can all come round if you like.
Cheers, hungry Mark |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 422
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 6:44 am: | |
G'day,
Where exactly was this print hanging in Kelly's room and were does it actually say that it was in her room?
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 280
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 8:32 am: | |
Hi Leanne
Bruce Paley quotes "The Pall Mall Gazette" Nov 12th : "The only attempts at decoration were a couple of engravings, one "The Fisherman's Widow" stuck over the mantlepiece."
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 423
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 9:36 am: | |
G'day Robert,
Thanks mate! It was bugging me!
LEANNE |
Martin Fido
Police Constable
Username: Fido
Post Number: 8
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 1:55 pm: | |
Doesn't Kelly's singing "Only a violet I plucked from my mother's grave" show that she shared the Victorian taste for somewhat maudlin sentimental pathos, and so would have liked either of the paintings?
All the best,
Martin F |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 186
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 3:13 pm: | |
Hi, all:
I have learned that there is an Irish folk song called "The Fisherman's Widow." You can hear it at the The Chiff & Fipple Tune-O-Matic Archive. This version just gives us the tune but a Newfoundland site appears to show it is a song with lyrics.
I don't know who wrote the song or whether it is a traditional song or something mocked up to sound like one by a modern songwriter. Does anyone know anything about it? If it is a period song, this could tie in with the story of poor Mary singing "Only a violet I plucked from my mother's grave" on her last night as well as Martin's thought that painting and the violet song show her apparent taste for maudlin sentimental pathos. If there is a tie-in, and Mary was fond of both of these songs, we might have learned something new about this most enigmatic of Jack's victims.
All the best
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 281
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 4:07 pm: | |
Hi all
Martin, great to see you on the Boards!
I enjoyed your book. I only have about 15 JTR books - a small number by some people's standards - but yours is one of them.
Chris, I tried to hear the piece but was trounced by this cursed technology. I shall have to call in youth on this one.
Weirdly, "Like Ducks" includes a piece called Kelly and Joe.
Robert |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 187
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 5:09 pm: | |
Hi Robert:
The tune is apparently classed as a "jig" so is not as much a lamentation as the title or the painting would suggest. The music is posted below.... again I don't know if the name at top right "P. Mahony" implies it is a new tune or just that Mr. Mahony was the one who transcribed the tune.
Chris
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 283
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 5:52 pm: | |
Hi Chris
Hm! Would Tom Wescott know, do you think?
Robert |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 189
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 9:10 am: | |
Hi, Robert:
I don't know. Tom might have some useful thoughts on the matter. Perhaps we could conjure up the spirit of Tom Wescott and meanwhile whistle the jaunty jig of "The Fisherman's Widow" while we wait for him to appear! 
All the best
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 286
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 9:40 am: | |
Hi Chris
All I've been able to find out, is that it's apparently also known as "Rambling Pitchfork".
If it has more than one title, I guess it could well be traditional.
I don't mind whistling the jig, but no river dancing - I'd only fall in.
Robert |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 191
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:58 am: | |
Hi Robert:
Yes you make a good point that if the tune has more than one name, as it appears to do, it probably is a traditional tune handed down.
All the best
Chris |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 201
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 3:21 pm: | |
Hi, all--
Well, now, I have, courtesy of Dale Wisely of the chiff & fipple traditional music site been sent three radically different sets of lyrics for the song "The Fisherman's Widow" or "Fisherman's Wife" -- same tune, known as the "Widow" apparently even when the song title says "Wife"!
The tune does indeed appear to be an old, traditional one but the song lyrics, in the oldest version so far sent to me, though also traditional, are to my disappointment, evidently Scottish not Irish!!! This might make the link to Mary Jane Kelly more tenuous... or maybe not. The song has also though been given lyrics by at least one modern songwriter, Ewan MacColl, and Dale's researched revealed that MacColl's lyrics were "set to a traditional tune." Dale adds, "MacColl's dates are b.1915-d.1989. There's a fine page about him on Peggy Seeger's website."
I give first what appears to be the older, traditional Scottish song complete with dialect terms and a translation:
THE FISHERMAN'S WIFE
Fa wid be a fisherman's wife
Tae work wi' a tub an a scrubber an' a knife
A deid oot fire an' a raivel'd bed
An' awa tae the mussels in the mornin.
Chorus
Here we come scoorin in,
Three reefs tae the foresail in.
There's nae a dry stick tae pit on wer back,
But still we're aa teetotllers.
Noo, fa'll gie's a hand tae rin a ripper lead
Tae try for a coddie in the bay o' Peterheid?
They're maybe at the Lummies or the clock on Sautis'eid
Fen we gaun tae the sma lines in the mornin.
Ma puir aul father's in the middle o' the flair
Beatin heuks ontae tippets an they're hingin on his chair.
They're made wi horses' hair, man, for that's the best o' gear
Tae be gyan tae the fishin in the mornin.
Syne it's doon the Geddle Braes in the middle o' the nicht
Wi an aul seerup tin an a can'le for a licht,
Tae gaither up the pullars, ev'ry een o' them in sicht
So we'll get the linie baited for the mornin.
It's easy to the cobbler, sittin in his neuk,
His big copper kettle hingin on a crook.
But we're in the boo and we cannae get a heuk
It's sair hard work in the mornin.
It's nae the kin o' life that a gentle quine can thole
Wi her fingers reid raw wi the scrubbin oot a yole
An a littlen on her hip, she's awa tae cairry coal,
She'll be caaed sair deen in the mornin.
Still an aa she widnae change for the gran'est o' yer gear
For she never kens the minute when her hairt'll loup wi fear.
For he's awa tae the sea an he's aa that she has dear
She qued be a widow wi his bairn in the mornin.
Glossary
Fa wid = Who would
deid oot fire = no time to light it
raivel'd bed = no time to make it
scoorin = skelpin' (driving)
Three reefs tae the foresail in = under high winds
teetotllers = teetotalers
gie's = give us
ripper = metal bar with hooks, tied to a sea line
coddie = codfish
Lummies & Salt House Head = local landmarks
gaun, gyan= going
puir aul = poor old
flair = floor
Beatin heuks ontae tippets = attaching hooks to leaders
syne = in time
Wi an aul seerup tin an a can'le for a licht =
With an old syrup can (to hold the bait) & a candle for a light
pullars = peeler crabs - soft-shelled for bait
boo = bow
quine = quean (young woman)
thole = endure
yole = fishing yawl
littlen = little one
caaed sair deen = get up for work too early
gran'est o' yer gear = the best one might have
loup = flip-flop
qued = could
bairn = child
An Aberdeen song, still current. See Sheila Douglas, The Sang's the Thing. (Polygon, Edinburgh, 1992). Sung by "The Shipping News" at the Mystic Sea Music Festival, June 1998. AJS
@Scots @work @fishing
filename[ FISHYFOR
AJS
APR99
****************
Finley Mullaly's song, Fisherman's Wife, with lyrics clearly not old!!
THE FISHERMAN'S WIFE
(Finley Mullally)
From Gowan Brae's 1993 recording
I am an old woman now
I remember Queen Victoria
At her word the nations took to war
and put their boats to sea
And she was one of few
and my stories such a simple one
I fear it's much too modest
for these 1970's
I was a fisherman's child
and when I still was very young
I wed a man whose fishing boats oars
went shining in the sun
And I've cursed the Sea
and I've raged against the angry tide
to bring that boat home safe again
with himself still inside
Chorus
And I've seen Jesus -- on the water
He was calling out my name
And I've seen Jesus -- on the water
He was calling out my name and I was frightened
and I faltered, but when he called, I came
I birthed a brood of kids
and raised them on my blood and will
I taught them to run screaming
I taught them to stand still
and my girls moved on
and my boys went to the sea
and yet I wove their lives around me
with these hands that weave the net
Chorus
One day my man washed up
and me pray'n for him all the time
They brought him to me full of scales
his hair was full of brine
And my two young boys soon after
pulling at the oars
were lost upon the ocean
and me raging at the shore
And I've been fishing, on the ocean
till my life's one fishing net
and I've been out there, on the black sea
and some nights...I'm still there yet
****************
And the version by Ewan MacColl once more with the dialect terms....
The Fisherman's Wife
© Ewan MacColl
Intro and outro and arrangement © Margo Hennebach
Here's the story of a fisherman's wife
How the man she wed lived a fisherman's life
When he set sail, she set a table for one
Will the work of a fisherman ever be done?
A' the week your man's awa' 1
And a' the week you bide your lane 2
A' the time you're waiting for
The minute that he's comin' hame 3
Ye ken whit wey he has tae work 4
Ye ken the hours he has tae keep
And yet it mak's ye angry when
Ye see him just come hame tae sleep
Through the months and through the years
While you're bringing up the bairns 5
Your man's awa' tae here and there
Following the shoals of herrin'
And when he's back there's nets tae mend
You've maybe got a score or twa
And when they're done he'll rise and say
"Wife, it's time I was awa'"
Work and wait and dree your weird 6
Pin your faith in herrin' sails
And oftimes lie awake at nicht 7
In fear and dread o' winter gales
For men maun wark tae earn their breid 8
And men maun sweat tae gain their fee
And fishermen will aye gang oot 9
As lang as fish swim in the sea
This was the story of a fisherman's wife
How the man she wed lived a fisherman's life
When he set sail she set a table for one
Will the love of a fisherman ever be won?
Glossary
1 - All the week your man's away
2 - stay at home
3 - home
4 - You know the hours he has to work
5 - children
6 - endure your fate
7 - night
8 - For men must work to earn their bread
9 - always go out |
