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Message |
    
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 163
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 10:34 pm: | 
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As mentioned I was working on earlier and announced elsewhere, Adrian Phypers' "Who Was the Mortuary Photgrapher?" is now available here on the Casebook.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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lee gay
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 3:50 pm: |
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i would like to know for a piece of histroy courseowkr, back in 1888 they believed that the last thing you saw before you died is always in your eyes after yopu die, would this mean that there is somewhere a picture of a close up of mark kelly's face all mutilated. could you plz try and get bck to me with information and maybe a photo if you can find one}} |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 616
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 1:57 pm: |
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Lee,
This belief was not widespread. It was more of a superstition or wife's tale. There is reference somewhere to the possibility of such photos being taken. I personally doubt that they were. Even if they were we can be pretty sure they were destroyed or discarded since they would have shown nothing.
Andy S.
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Matthew Owen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 10:09 pm: |
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Andrew,
I think it probably sounds more stupid to us now given our wider understanding of medical knowledge then it actually seemed to the "semi-educated" back then. It seems that doctors thought it was rubbish, but a significant number of lay-people did not.
If you have a quick flick through Sugden, you'll find in Chapter 7, "The Panic and the Police", that The Star newspaper suggested eyeball photography at the time of the Chapman murder; and later in the investigation, Home Secretary Matthews inquired of Warren if the eyes of Liz Stride had been thoroughly examined (obviously with this "last imprint" theory in mind). I'm not saying that a Star journalist is any indication of average intelligence, but it would seem to indicate that the theory was widespread enough to be know. Indeed, I think Sugden also mentions photography journals of the time stating crimes had been solved due to retinal imprints.
Sugden also reminds us that in Walter Dew's autobiography, he states that Mary's eyeballs had been photographed. This obviously cannot be corroborated because we don't have the photos, but I think there is always the possibility the event occurred. And if the event did occur, wouldn't it have been considered destroying evidence to dispose of crime scene photos, even if there were no retinal images? My common sense tells me this would be the case even in Victorian times.
I suspect that there may be other Kelly crime scene photos, but they were "souveniered" by someone a long, long time ago. However, given the fragile and recycleable nature of glass negative plates, I think it would be a (ghoulish) miracle if they ever surfaced again.
Matt
(long, long, long time lurker) |
dennis
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 6:57 pm: |
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I think the colorized image of Mary Kelly is striking to say the least. I note the above posts which say they "see something inherently wrong with the Kelly photos. For a long time I to have looked at the 2nd photograph, the close-up from the right leg, looking toward the groin area and the table. To me Mary Kelly's hand looks backward. I mean it seems her thumb is showing quite clearly as opposed to what should be her pinkie, which is evident in the usual photograph, most people are familiar with. Does anybody see what i am talking about? |
John Nickolaus
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 12:13 pm: |
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I have always wondered what Mary Kelly looked like. Like some, because of the mystery surrounding her, she has always been my "favorite" ripper victim. If it wasn't a desecration of her grave, I would love one of those forensic reconstruction guys to use her skull to rebuild her face. |
James D. Smith
Sergeant
Username: Diomedes
Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 4:08 am: |
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I recently reread parts of the interview with Stewart P. Evans. Evans stated that the book keeper Eric Barton had the set of pictures of Mary Kelly. He told Mr Evans that they where somewhere in his house and that if found he would give them to Mr Evans. Mr Barton died before he was able to locate the set. Now, I wonder if Mr Evans ever considered contacting the family of Eric Barton to see if they had any knowledge on their whereabouts. Does anyone know? |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 244
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:19 am: |
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It sounds like this Peter Barton might be the son of Eric Barton??
RH |
James D. Smith
Sergeant
Username: Diomedes
Post Number: 24
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |
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Is there a Peter Barton? I don't recall hearing the name. If you read the interview with Stewart P. Evans, he (Evans) states that he purchased the Littlechild Letter from Eric Barton and Barton aquired it from Southabeys (pardon my spelling) in the early sixties along with other items belonging to Geo Simm's ( I believe George was Simms correct name) private collection of letters and "what nots" related to the Whitechapel murders I assume the set of MJK pics to be part of the collection. I believe Mr Barton said some of the items were donated to a wax museum, the pictures however he still had and Mr Evans could have if he could locate them. Now Eric Barton owned Baulder Publishing and he was an antiquarian book dealer. Baulder Publishing was located at Richmond on Thames. When Mr Barton passed away I feel for certain his surviving family knew that items he had from his life had the potential for being of great value so I sincerely doubt they would of just discarded of them. Would they recognize what the pictures were if they come across them? I hope that Mr Evans has thought this out and, if he hasn't already, get in touch with them to see if they have the MJK photos and if they did, would they make good on Eric Bartons word and give them to Stewart Evans? In my mind I belive the other pictures are very likely out there. If anyone is interested, my name is Jim, I live out in West Texas. My interest in the Whitechapel murders goes back to 1990 when I saw a program on public television about the events. I had never seen pictures of the victims, it was late at night and when it was at the part where Mary Kelly was being addressed they flashed the crime scene picture on the screen and I am not ashamed to admit it scared the @#&@ out of me. Through the years I have learned that alot of people who take intrest in the case gravitate toward Mary. In a sence I believe we carry the burden of the horrors that happened to that poor woman so long ago, well I hope that makes sense to some of you out there. Thanks for taking the time to read what I have to say.
Sincerely,
Jim S |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:46 am: |
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Hello
If J. McCarthy was of Irish extraction (which might explain he why let MJK go overdue on the rent) he would write his initials as JMcC.
You can find images of Rasputins vital bit here if you are interested :
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/04/28/rasputin.shtml
And I assume it was detached after he had just spent a couple of hours in ice water. So go figure!
Mr Poster |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 537
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 4:44 am: |
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This is turning into quite a peculiar thread! Some very odd stuff going on here.
I would put out of mind any possibility of more pictures of MJK turning up. I can't speak for Stewart, but I would be very surprised if he believed what he was told. If the vendor was in posession of images of MJK, they would surely just have been copies of the well-known ones. I'm not stating this as undisputed fact, but as a personal assertion.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:29 am: |
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Hello
At the time these pictures were taken (MJK, not Rasputin) was it common to take just one plate or exposure and hope it worked out? Or were many plates taken? When developing these old plates, could one manipulate the development or was it a case of what you got was what you got?
Trying to figure out was it the practice to take more than one shot and if so what happened to the other plates.
Are the pictures of MJK "mirror" images? Were cameras in 1888 still producing mirror images?
mr Poster |
Dale Huddlesceugh
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 12:25 pm: |
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One of Melvyn Harris's books, either "the Ripper File" or "The True Face" contains a pen and ink drawing of Mary Kelly, supposedly as she was alive, which is the only one I've seen. I think the drawing came from "Police News", so whether it was purely fanciful or based partly or wholly on a description I don't know, but I'd guess the former.
On another, related point, the Maybrick diary (whatever you make of it) refers to the letters "FM" being written in blood on the wall of the room. I wondered if there are any alternative explanations for this? |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1887
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 7:03 am: |
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Hi Dale,
No, the diary does not refer to the letters "FM" in blood on the wall.
This is one of the bigger myths to have grown up around this document.
Read all the references to initials again, and see if the diarist could not have had in mind an initial 'here' and an initial 'there' (ie in separate locations - London and Liverpool again perhaps?), carved or scratched, but not on walls.
Love,
Caz
X |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1725
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 11:12 am: |
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Dale,
Caz is quite correct in her above post. The actual diary does not mention FM specifically.
The writing on the wall was originally spotted by Simon Owen back in the 80s. The Author and researchers of the book based on the diary brought the writing to prominace once again and speculated that the writing was 'FM'.
Since then some have spotted many other words such as 'Barnett' and 'Hart'.
So, just to iterate, the diary does not mention 'FM' however the book about the diary does.
Cheers,
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 619
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 1:07 pm: |
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Monty,
Congratulations mate on correctly using iterate.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2600
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 2:24 pm: |
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me and Caz actually agree,
lol!
Yes Don is right, iterate, thats a good word.
Jenni
ps there is nothing on the photo!
"be just and fear not"
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1889
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 7:03 am: |
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Hi Monty,
I think it was Simon Wood, not Owen.
Had it been Simon Owen, he would have sworn the letters were there and stood for Free Masons. 
Love,
Caz
X |
Nicholas Smith
Sergeant
Username: Diddles
Post Number: 25
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 9:53 am: |
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G'dat everyone, i agree with the whole lot of you. Nothing can be made out of the supposed FM on the wall, It's all bull crap.There's no FM or any such other name there.
There's just the mutilated of Mary Kelly. If there was any such writing, why didn't the police mention it in their reports?
Jules |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1727
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 4:30 am: |
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Caz and Don,
Caz, you are quite right. My apologies to Mssrs Wood and Owen.
Don, many thanks for your felicitations.
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Gavin Bromley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 8:09 am: |
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I believe it was Simon Wood who first mentioned that he could see the letters 'FM' on the wall just above Kelly's bed in the photo. One of the arguments by those 'supporting' the diary is that these letters stand for Florence Maybrick, another bit of evidence they say points to Maybrick being the killer, but the diary itself does not explicitly mention these letters on Kelly's wall. Some might say it mentions things in a vague way so that, as with Nostradamus's predictions, the facts can be fit into what the diary says, but I won't.  |
dalehuddlesceugh
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 11:26 am: |
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Hi Caz!
Thanks for putting me right! There's no room for sloppiness on here, is there?! Having re-read the book about the diary I see your point and also that the alleged letters aren't very clear at all. I do find it interesting though that some people would rather believe that the letters "FM" were created by the random spraying of arterial blood, which seems highly improbable to me, especially for an "F", than being deliberately written there. Like many aspects of the case, whether it is there or not "FM" could be interpreted as meaning just about anything to anybody. Not entirely convinced that the fact the police failed to mention it would necessarily be conclusive though.
Jennifer - no connection with Carlisle by any chance? "Be Just And Fear Not" is the motto of the Great Border City! |
Linda on Photos
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 1:19 pm: |
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Hi,
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I have a related question. Does anyone know if there were any drawings made of the Kelly crime scene? I've seen a reproduction of a rudimnetary drawing (by a pathologist) depicting Eddowes' wounds, but am wondering if there was/is one of Kelly.
Linda |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 873
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 2:32 pm: |
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There is at least one sketched illustration of Kelly's room but as it was not made for forensic purposes it must be taken cautiously and may not be an accurate depiction of the room. It looks much too large. I'm not aware of any forensic drawings that survive.
Andy S. |
Linda on Photos
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 12:26 pm: |
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Hi Andy,
Thanks for the info. I am guessing the sketch was made by or for a newspaper. Am I right? Do you know where it is published, or located on this site?
I've seen a floor plan sketch of the rooms surrounding Miller Court (published in Alexander Chisholm, Christopher Michael DiGrazia and Dave Yost, “Mary Jane Kelly,” Chapter 5 in The News from Whitechapel: Jack the Ripper in the Daily Telegraph), which seems to have been made specifically for the newspaper.
I suppose a lot of the records have been lost, so it is impossible to know what kinds of visual documents were made by investigators at the time. But, I thought it was worth asking!
Linda
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 893
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 3:25 pm: |
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Linda,
I believe you are right in guessing that the sketch of the interior of Kelly's room was published in a newspaper or magazine. It was a sketch of the interior rather than a floor plan.
It can be found on this Kelly thread somewhere but I don't remember just where and I don't have the time to hunt for it right now.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on July 05, 2005) |
Chrissy Stevens
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 8:44 am: |
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I am about to become a new member of this wonderful site and I am reading the book, Jack The Ripper by Colin Wilson and Robin Odell a compelling book and a couple Of thoughts I have are,Mary Anne Kelly had a Marie Anne Harvey staying with her, that caused her partner to leave her, if they did not have all the ability to prove who the dead woman was, how do they know it was Kelly and not Marie Harvey, she was badly disfigured and dismembered.In the book they have mentioned the clothes being burned in the grate and it could have been a woman who murdered her and burnt her own clothes and wore the victims clothes.
I am not convinced of this theory and what comes to mind is that the position of the Liver and other pieces of her body could have been giving a message to the police,I am researching this at the moment.
Of course I have only read this one book and hope to go on to read others,I am getting |Patricia Cornwells book on Monday and would welcome some advive from members on the next book to read.
I look forward to joining you all very soon
Chrissy |
Nicholas Smith
Detective Sergeant
Username: Diddles
Post Number: 106
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 4:31 am: |
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G'day Chrissy and welcome.
The book you have read by CW and RO is not a bad one to start with but instead of getting Cornwalls book next there are a couple of others which give an overall view of the murders without trying to clog your mind with an opinion of who Jack might have been. Possibly one of the better ones would be The Mammoth Book Of Jack the Ripper by Maxim Jakubowski and Nathan Braund.
This book gives you dates, documents, theories etc. Once you've had a read of a book of this nature you can start to make up your nind where to go next.
Although just about every bit of information you're looking for can be found right here on the Casebook.
The idea about the body found in Millers Court not being Mary Kelly is debated extensively on these boards so I'ff you've got a spare year or two up your sleeve - enjoy a good read.
Kelly was identified by her lover, Barnett, and although his identification is a bit shabby most people will take it as fair dinkum. If you want to know more about Barnett, get in touch with Leanne Perry who probably knows more about him than she knows about herself.
But it looks like you're keeping an open mind on things which is a great start so all the best with your research.
Jules |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 732
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 5:00 am: |
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Hi Chrissy
I echo Jules's sentiments here but I would say the very best book you can buy on JTR is Philip Sugden's. It is a big bugger, but reasonably priced and the most accessible of the serious studies - though Don Rumbelow's is really good too, but make sure you get the latest edition.
A problem with Maria Harvey being the body found in #13 is that the police took a statement from her on the 9th and she appeared at the inquest. The chances of it being a conspiracy between MJK masquerading as her and JB and whoever is ridiculous.
PHILIP
PS : Touch Cornwell with a bargepole and we will laugh at you forever. 
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Dick Turpin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
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Hello,
I have a question. I have looked with great interest at all these facinating Mary Kelly photos. I am wondering why there seem to be no photos of any of the other victims to annalyse. I would be very interested in studying Eddow's , Chapman's and Nichol's wounds to compare with Kelly's. Do any exist? Thanks. |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 733
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 7:35 pm: |
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Erm...
Hello there Mr Richard Palmer, ostensibly buried in St George's Churchyard in York after his execution at the Knavesmire. We thought you were dead.
Very interested to hear you have been able to study 'all these fascinating Mary Kelly photos' - and there we were thinking there was just 2 of them.
You aren't serious about not knowing of any other photos of the other victims, are you? What year are you living in? Or have you been reading works by certain authors of which we snigger and shake our heads in our pompous superiority?
Come on, matey. If you are serious - there are mortuary shots of Nicholls, Chapman, Stride, Tabram, MacKenzie and Coles which are all head and shoulders. Eddowes was taken instead to Golden Lane and consequently there are 4 of her (there was reputed to be 5 but we have now pretty much discounted the 5th as being one of the others reversed and touched-up). One is a 3/4 length shot, one is full-length, one is 3/4 profile of just the head. These are all post-mortem. There is also a pre-autopsy shot which is of poor quality but shows the depth of the throat wound and gives a suggestion of the flap of skin having been placed back over the stomach.
I'd be very careful to ensure you are doing this research for the right reasons. Your post hints at just a shade of gratuitous ghoulishness, and you will learn very quickly we don't tolerate much of that on these boards.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2952
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 4:30 am: |
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Well said Philip!
I dont intend to reiterate what Philip's posted but as to books I agree on Sugden and Rumbelow,and also in the 'big bugger' collection should be Paul Beggs' 'JTR the Facts'.
Many authors have written many fine books,based on their theories and suspects various ....but...... PLEASE PLEASE dont even think about parting with cash....or anything else for a copy of Cornwell...........well at least until you've read enough 'sane' material to be able to read it and enjoy a well earned guffaw!!
Suzi |
Jane Coram
Chief Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 582
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 8:33 am: |
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If anyone is reluctant to part with cash for a book on the strengh that it might be a complete waste of time......a good suggestion is to do what I do....order it from your local library first. If you like it, buy it.....it not pass it onto some other poor sucker.
It will only cost you 75p to order it. (Some might say even that is too much for Cornwell's book, but it gave me a good laugh. best penny dreadful I have ever read).
Seriously though libraries can order practically any book for you, but it helps if you have the publisher information and the ISBN number.
Jane
xxxxx |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1873
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 11:21 am: |
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Phil,
Psssst, its not the real Dick Turpin.
Monty
My prediction? 3-0 to us. 5-0 if the weather holds out. - Glenn McGrath
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 738
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 11:40 am: |
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Monty -
That's OK. It's not the real me either.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Nicholas Smith
Detective Sergeant
Username: Diddles
Post Number: 109
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 11:49 am: |
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Then again you could also get copies of 'Ripperoo' from this website which has just about covered everything:-)
Sorry guys, just a bit of blatant advertising:-)
Cheers
Jules |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2953
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 1:11 pm: |
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NOT the real Dick Turpin?????????? am appalled!
Jane- Good point!!!!!! but for CORNWELL???????? 75p!!!!!! gracious!
Jules- It pays to advertise!!!!!!! well at least 75p!!! LOL
Suzi |
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