| Author |
Message |
    
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 711
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 5:50 pm: | 
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Andy
100 Pownall Road in 1891 was as follows:
Head:
John H Smith aged 42 born Clerkenwell
General Dealer
Wife:
Mary Smith aged 44 born Stoke Newington
Children:
Eliza A aged 21 born Islington
John W aged aged 18 born Islington
Printers Cheque Sorting
Jane aged 12 born Islington
Arthur aged 10 born Shoreditch
Other:
Father in Law of head
William H Mackeullah aged 70 born St Martins
Mother in Law
Eliza Mackeullah aged 70 born Shoreditch
131 Pownall Road:
2 Households
1)
Head:
Charles Brown aged 51 born St Georges east
Baker
Wife:
Charlotte Brown aged 55 born Goudhurst, Kent
2)
Head:
Susanah Beer aged 58 born Bow
Widowed
Living on "Retired" own means
Children:
Susanah aged 28 born Mile End
Milliner
Mary aged 22 born Dalston
Stationer
Ellen P aged 19 born Dalston
Stationer
Hope this helps
Chris |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 62
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 6:35 am: |
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Chris Scott,
Thanks for that.
Cheers.
Andy.
|
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 368
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 11:36 am: |
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Andy,
Yes...sooooo nice I be !
Yoda Monty
PS Raymond should be in every England set up. He is more versatile than Butt and has more skill than Neville (both of them, but I mean Phil). He is, IMHO one of the most consistantly underesimated players of his generation.
PPS Any chance of some free Highbury tickets for the traditional "Leicester gets boshed game"? |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 63
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 2:30 pm: |
|
Hello Monty,
Ray should be in the team if only for his sense of humour. He told David Seaman he was giving him a tip, David thought it was for a horse, but Ray told him not to try tying his bootlaces up in a revolving door! Ray asked me for a tip once, I told him not to drink bleach!
No tickets I'me afraid. The last ones we got were a year ago. Arsenal are the tightest club in England.
A. |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 87
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 7:02 pm: |
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The only living relative of Alice Esther Nichols says that there is no picture or info about Mary Ann Nichols, but there are pictures of Alice Esther. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 10:20 am: |
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If you read the inquest report of Nichols which is on Casebook at:
http://casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_nichols.html
have a look at the testimony of PC Thain.
I am currently transcribing the part of the inquest report dealing with Thain's testimony from the St James Gazette. In this version his testimony runs as follows:
Police constable Thain said that he passed the end of Buck's row about every thirty minutes. There was nothing to attract his attention until 3.45 a.m. He was then signalled by another police constable's light. He answered and ran to the spot where the deceased was found. He found Neal bending over the body. Neal said, "For God's sake, Jack, go and call a doctor." He went and called Dr. Llewellyn. When he got back there were two workmen and Constable Neal beside the body. He saw a quantity of blood all congealed. When he picked her up the deceased appeared to be covered with blood as far as the waist.
Interesting that the first reported words spoken over the body of the first victim contained the name Jack! However it was the last sentence that intrigued me as I had not seen it reported elsewhere that Thain picked up Nichols' body. It is not clear if he was trying to ascertain whether or not she was dead or to see the extent of her injuries or the bloodflow.
Chris
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Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 2:48 am: |
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Hello Chris Scott,
Your information on Mary Ann's family is amazing!
I can shed some light on the mystery of her eldest son's family. Edward and Lilian Nichols are my great-grandparents. Their first son was named Edward Wilfred, so you are correct--the Edward listed in the 1891 Census and the Wilfred listed in the 1901 Census are the same person.
The other 3 children were Florence, Lilian and Eric. Wilfred moved to Canada and served in the Canadian Forces during WW1 and listed his mother, Lilian Saunders, as his next of kin with an address at 4 St. John's Road, ??thall Green, Middlesex, in Dec. 1914. Will's father, Edward had died young, according to my cousin, and Lilian remarried to a man named Bill Saunders.
Back to the rest of the children. Eric served in the British Forces during WW1 and I believe went missing or died at age 17.
Florence remained in England, but 2 of her daughters moved to Canada. One of the daughters has told me she doesn't remember hearing much about the Nichols family.
Lilian Jr. moved to Canada in 1914, married twice and died in 1969.
I hope some of this is of interest.
Maureen |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 142
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 3:00 pm: |
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Hi Maureen,
I hope Chris won't mind me answering your message above, but I was very pleased to read about your relation to Edward and Lilian Nichols and their son Edward Wilfrid. I have been trying to find relatives of them for the last six months!
The address for Lilian Saunders that I had was for Southall, that was probably the ??thall Green. I don't know whether you knew that Edward and Lilian also had a son called Arthur Nichols born in 1895 who died as an infant? He was born between Florence and Lilian.
Maureen, do you know if there were any photographs in the family of Edward and Lilian Nichols, and his parents William and Mary Ann Nichols?
I am currently in contact with a great granddaughter of Edward Nichols sister Alice Esther Nichols. A photograph of Alice is on another message board entitled "Mary Ann Nichols descendants".
Through my research, I strongly believe that Edward's two brother's Percy and Henry died without having children, but have no idea what happened to another sister Eliza Sarah Nichols after 1901.
I hope you can post again.
Neal
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1210
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 4:43 pm: |
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Hi Maureen
Very glad the info was of interest and I would soundly endorse Neal's comments above hoping you can post again.
I am currently working on a family tree to present the info for the Nichols family to present it graphically via a piece of software called GenoPro. Let me know if you would a copy of this when it is done.
All the best
Chris |
Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 7:06 pm: |
|
Hi Chris,
There is a huge smile on my face. Your offer of a copy of the Nichols family tree is most gratefully accepted. I have been using Family Tree Maker, but will check out GenoPro.
Thanks!
Maureen |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 143
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 6:05 am: |
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Hi Maureen,
Could I just ask as to whether Edward John Nichols the father of Wilfrid could have died in Canada as I never found a death certificate?
Maybe Lilian Nichols then married Bill Saunders in Canada too?
All the best
Neal |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 6:38 am: |
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Eric Nichols WW1 death details is given on the Commonwealth War Graves website as follows:
Name: Nichols, Eric. Initials: E. Nationality: United Kingdom. Rank: Private. Regiment: Royal Marine Light Infantry Unit Text: Deal Bn. R.N. Div. Age: 17. Date of Death: 26/06/1915. Service No: PLY/17044. Additional information: Son of Mrs L.M. Saunders, of 26 Western Rd, Southall, Middx. Casaulty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 2 to 7 Cemetery: HELLES MEMORIAL.
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Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 9:01 pm: |
|
Hi Neal,
It sounds like we have been searching for much of the same information for the last 6 months!
Thanks for clarifying Southall for me. I found that address on Wilfred's CEF (Canadian Expeditionary Forces) attestation papers. For some reason, he had his birthdate on those papers as 1892, which is not correct--how could he have been on the 1901 Census, if he wasn't born yet? I can either upload images of this document, or you can see it at
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/020106_e.html and enter his regimental number, which is 108439 into the search to view online.
Also, I am certain Florence was born in 1892. I saw her daughter yesterday, and she mentioned that she has a card from Edward's funeral. She told me he died young, but didn't remember the age. She has promised to bring the card and some photos when she comes back for a visit in July. The wait will be excruciating!
I remember my Grandmother telling me there were 9 children in her family. It was fun to have her recite the names and she did say some died, but I can't remember the names. I guess that could have been Arthur, who would have been born a year before she was, and Eric, who died during WW1. I'm now thinking some of the 9 children would likely have been either Saunders step-siblings or half-siblings born after Edward died.
I don't know of any photos of Edward and Lilian in my Mother's possession. However, I will start looking. All I have immediately available is a photo of their daughter, Lilian.
Thanks for pointing me to the photo of Alice Nichols. It seems to me there was mention somewhere about a photo of Edward, but I don't think it was posted. Do you know anything about that one?
Maureen
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1211
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 10:16 am: |
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Hi Maureen
I will gladly send you a copy but will need an e-mail address to send it to. You can mail it to me privately at
chris.scott@btinternet.com
You will not need to get GenePro as I have output the family tree as a normal graphic file (jpeg) so you will able to view in any standard graphics package
Let me know the address and I will send it
all the best
Chris
|
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 145
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 4:06 pm: |
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Hi Maureen,
Thanks for the link to Edward Wilfred's military record, it was fascinating to see the description of him, and all the military and personal details.
He was born in 1890, and I wondered whether you knew that his parents Edward John Nichols and Lilian Mary Oxley were married at Emmanuel Church in Camberwell. The date was 27 November 1888, 3 months after his mother's murder.
Edward John was living at 34 Clarendon Street at the time of the marriage. The record that I have of Arthur Nichols, is following Edward Wilfred and Florence births. Arthur was born and died in 1895 while the family lived at Waterloo Road, Camberwell. Then as you know Lilian followed, and then Eric who for some reason was born at Plaistow?
It will be great to see any photographs that you can find. And the date of Edward John's death from the card.
Authors Andy and Sue Parlour printed a photograph of Edward John Nichols in their book some years ago, that you can read about on this site. Andy often posts, so hopefully he could send you a copy of the photograph?
It is likely as you point out, that Lilian could have had more children with Bill Saunders and it explains the 9?
Maureen, did Edward Wilfred die in Canada the same as his sister Lilian?
And did Florence only have two daughters?
Could there also have been an older Aunt Eliza, whether married or called Nichols in Canada? Because she is the only person from the Nichols family after 1901 that I haven't been able to track down. Eliza was Edward John Nichols younger sister.
Sorry to come up with more questions.
Neal
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Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 9:38 pm: |
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Hi Neal,
I have a copy of Edward Nichols and Lilian Oxley's marriage certificate. Until I received it, I did not know Edward's father's name or occupation.
I tried looking up Andy and Sue Parlour's book on the internet, but couldn't find it. What is the title? I'd like to get a copy.
I believe Edward Wilfred lived in Winnipeg. I checked the online death records for the Province of Manitoba, but found nothing. They only provide deaths after 70 years, so he may have lived longer than that. I also checked B.C. in case he lived near Lilian. B.C deaths are available after 20 years, and I found nothing there.
I vaguely remember a photo with "Wilf" written on the back of it and I wondered who it was. Now I am not sure where I saw it, so will start searching.
I don't recall any mention of an Aunt Eliza, but can run that name by my cousin to think about while she is looking for pictures and death notices! There were Elizabeths on the Oxley side as well, so possibly I heard of her and assumed it was the one we saw all the time.
I don't mind the questions at all. In time, I am sure I will have more answers.
Thanks for sharing all your info.
Maureen |
Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 8:28 pm: |
|
Neal,
I am certain Edward and Lilian Nichols never came to Canada. An elderly cousin who was born in England, referred to her grandparents as Grandma Saunders and Uncle Bill. She told me they were both buried at Herne Bay, Kent.
When I see her again, I'll ask what year. She also has some sort of card for Edward Nichols death. I don't know that it would be a death certificate, but it sounds like a funeral card. Apparently he died quite young.
Maureen |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 148
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 8:43 am: |
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Hi Maureen,
Andy and Sue Parlour’s book is called "The Jack the Ripper Whitechapel Murders", Ten Bells Publishing 1997, ISBN 0 9531269 00. I should just add that I forgot Kevin O'Donnell who is named first on the book with Andy and Sue.
I will be interested to see what you can eventually find out about Edward John Nichols death, now it couldn’t have been in Canada. I may be able to make a search next week to confirm the death at Herne Bay in Kent of Lilian Saunders. I remember making a very long search some time ago for Edward and Lilian’s deaths, but I now realise why I didn’t find Lilian.
She had lived with Edward at Bexley in 1901, so I can understand why she perhaps retired with Bill Saunders further out in Kent.
The reason for why Edward John Nichols and his family are so important to the history of Mary Ann Nichols is because he was living with Mary’s father Edward Walker at the time of her death. And I strongly believe that if Edward Walker had anything belonging to Mary Ann, such as photographs and letters, then I believe they would have been passed to Edward John rather than his brothers or sisters?
And it's fascinating to see what happened to Edward Wilfred, Florence, and Lilian.
Best of luck also in searching for Edward Wilfred’s photograph.
Neal
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Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 11:29 pm: |
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Hi Neal,
In answer to your question about Florence's children, there were 6 and only the 2 youngest moved to Canada that I know of.
Maureen |
Neal Shelden
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 151
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 6:07 pm: |
|
Thanks Maureen,
I suppose where any male members of the family were concerned, the two World Wars may have taken some of the lives. I get the impression from you, that Edward Wilfrid survived WW1 and probably WW2?
Neal |
Maureen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 10:35 pm: |
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Hi Neal,
I am quite sure Edward Wilfred lived through WW1, and not sure about WW2. I am looking for an old address book that Mum kept, as it may contain something. Another thing to ask my cousin. |
Neal Shelden
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 152
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 2:54 pm: |
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Thanks again Maureen,
I had a short look for the death of Lilian Saunders today but had no luck from 1915 to 1950. So I will have to try in London next week for 1951 onwards. Looks like she at least lived into her eighties. |
David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 78
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:03 am: |
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Has Nichols been found on the 1881 census? She is supposed to have been in the Lambeth Workhouse from Sept 6 1880 - May 31 1881, and as I understand it the census would have been done in April, but I don't see her there (although there is another Mary Ann Nichols!)
Thanks
David |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1830
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 4:46 am: |
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Guys,
Another anniversary.
Thou art slave to fate.
Rest in Peace Mary.
Monty
...and I said: "My name is 'Sue!' How do you do!
Now you're gonna die!!"
|
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 893
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 5:51 am: |
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....117 years to the day
R.I.P. Mary Ann Nichols |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 1:18 pm: |
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Hi,
It is also forty years ago today that i walked through Durward street at 330am [ frightened to death] and then proceeded the same year to be present at Hanbury street at 530am on the 8th sept, Also the sites of Stride, eddowes , and kelly, at the precise times on the relevant dates.
I have not repeated that adventure since but as a eighteen year old it was quite a experience.
Regards Richard. |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 717
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 2:05 pm: |
|
Richard,
Quite an adventure, but then we do crazy things when young. I don't suppose you took any photographs, did you?
Wholly by accident the year I got out of college I was on my way to Cape Cod and passing by Fall River, Mass., when I realized it was the day Mom and Pop Borden were axed so I detoured to Second Street. No supernatural sensations, just surprise at how small everything was and how oppressively hot it was -- and must have been back then before even fans far less a/c.
I should think the heat and being served the same mutton three days running would have been motive enough for the mayhem.
I wrote a poem on the occasion; perhaps I'll dig it up and post it in the appropriate place.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4904
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
|
at the precise times on the relevant dates
Richard, did you visit the Kelly site night or morning?
Don, let's have your sweltering poem.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1449
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
|
Hi guys,
Just to clarify, unfortunetly i took no camera with me, i just took myself off to whitechapel around 9pm on the relevant nights had a couple of brown and milds [ my tipple then] in a pub or two in whitechapel, then simply [ stupidly] hung around the area avoiding any drunks or trouble then headed in the relevant directions according to my watch. I Guess i was fortunate not to have been accosted by anyone though i did have a sheath knife with me for companionship[ which was irresposible].
As you can imagine the atmosphere of whitechapel was extremely different then the buildings were authentic Mitre square was completly different [ not the glass maze it is today]
I simply did those trips to experience any vibes of what it was like at that time of the night on those dates some 77 years previous.
Good memorys but no photographs alas, but although it has been a long time i remember the atmosphere very clearly. scary.
Richard.
ps Robert,
I visited Duval street at 230 am if i recall . long before any modern day theorys. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4905
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 3:41 pm: |
|
Quite an experience, Richard. I can believe it was scary!
Robert |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 295
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
|
Happy Polly Day!
Isn't it interesting that the two most important murders in this series, that is Nicholls and Chapman, are the two with the fewest posts. Hmm?
Stan |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1450
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
|
Hi,
Just a footnote.
I did say a prayer for each victim on site at the relevant time or in the case of Kelly [approx] for at that time i was just a novice[ whats new].
I hope people visiting this site dont perceive a unnatural intrest on my part, i just have along with the rest of the team on this casebook dedicated a strong intrest regarding 'The Whitechapel murders'
Regards Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4906
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
|
Absolutely - there's nothing unnatural about it at all.
Stan, why are the Polly and Annie murders the two most important?
Robert |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 298
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
|
Hi Robert,
Because the first slaying is the point where the criminal crossed over to murder and the second is his "becoming", that is, the time he became a serial killer by the minimal definition. To look at it another way, it's when he decided that he liked murdering enough that he was going to make it a career. The rest of the slayings were just repetitions.
Stan |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 633
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 7:03 pm: |
|
Hi all,
Myself, Philip Hutchinson and Christian Jaud just spent the afternoon and evening touring the East End. Our first port of call was Durward Street where we spared a few moments thinking about 'Polly'.
Rob |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
|
Hi Robert,
Christian Jaud's back in the East End! Sounds like a good way to spend the day. Christian's a great guy I haven't had the good fortune to meet.
Dave |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 682
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 7:19 pm: |
|
Indeed. I have just got home from it. What a great afternoon it was - I have some images I will post elsewhere on the boards which may be of interest.
This is the site at 4:15pm this afternoon (31st August)
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Rodney Gillis
Sergeant
Username: Srod
Post Number: 50
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 11:03 pm: |
|
In learning about the victims I have always had a particular sadness for Polly. There was no way for her to know what was about to happen. Such a way to be important in history.
My prayers are with you Polly and the people of New Orleans tonight.
Rod |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 870
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 7:22 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Well of course the importance of the first and second victims depends entirely upon if Nichols and Chapman really were first and second, and we have no real way of knowing.
(Message edited by dannorder on September 01, 2005)
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 635
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
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Hi Dave,
Christian's a very nice man, Phil's okay as long as you don't outbid him on ebay.
I took this just after Phil took his, and I think you can get an idea that it was very very hot.
Rob |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 306
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
|
Hi Dan,
Yes, we have no real way of knowing anything here for sure. If those murders weren't one and two, then they were certainly the two where he hit his stride (No Stride jokes please!). That is, unless someone wants to argue that Chapman's killer was a different person who was copycating Nicholls'. Very few things can be ruled in or out 100%.
Goodies,
Stan |
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