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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 104
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:18 am: | 
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Helge
The original poster thought it said Piggy, he put it on another thread.
I will read what you have put about Mary's room later tonight as I have to go to hospital now.
Debra |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5034
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:49 am: |
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My preferred option is that Kelly was attacked by someone who came into her room while she was asleep or groggy.
But in Richard's scenario, we must remember that if there was a stocking on her leg, then she could have been attacked at the end of getting undressed...or at the start of getting up.
Robert |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 323
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 6:02 am: |
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Thanks, Debra. I'm afraid I dont have the time to follow all threads here!
Hope you work in a hospital, and that you are not sick, or anything!
Robert,
I'm beginning to prefer your scenario...
But, yes, I see were Richard is going. Which is why I agree this is a pretty crucial detail.
The main argument against it (apart from the fact I see no stocking), is that most women keep their beds tidy (is it genetical?), and to me it does appear as if the top bedsheets (am I using the right word here?) has been rolled off her. Thus she must have been under them!
It seems to me that there also were some bedsheets or whatever on the table beside the bed, apart from the flesh. Does anyone agree?
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5036
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 7:17 am: |
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Hi Helge
I'm no medical expert, but it doesn't look to me as if Kelly had been strangled before her throat was cut. The trouble with Richard's scenario is that if Kelly was attacked either while getting undressed or while getting up, then the most likely position for her to have been in would have been seated on the edge of the bed. In which case, a man who had always killed quickly and silently would have presumably attacked her while she was thus seated, and then had to wrestle with her, and got her lying down with her head at the corner of the bed, before cutting her throat. At some point during all this it looks as if he reached down to the end of the bed and pulled her sheet up over her face, and stabbed her through it (or pulled it from under her if she was lying on a bed that had already been made). It just doesn't feel right.
Of course, if we say that Jack simply entered the room in the dark, found perhaps that there was someone there whom he wasn't expecting to be there, and killed Kelly in a sort of panic, then that's going against Jack's previous method too. But I can't help feeling that Jack's mental state was deteriorating by then. Richard's scenario (Barnett) or the client-brought-home scenario have Jack operating in a more cool and calculating manner, so it's difficult to see why such a killer would bungle the job in the way he apparently did.
Robert |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 324
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 8:27 am: |
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Robert,
Reevaluating this case for the past few weeks, I have come to put less importance than before in my previous "Jack as John" "primary" scenario.
I still think Jack did it, though. My main argument would be that in fact most domestics are solved, and Barnett was actually suspected and interrogated, and yet they let him go...coupled with what I think is a far too extensive mutilation to be a copycat or domestic first off kill.
What I think is that Jack lived in the general area of his victims, and may very well have known them all tangentially. Add to this the tantalizing statement by Eddowes that she knew who he was, and the fact that Kelly was exceptionally afraid of the Ripper. (OK, it proves nothing, I know)
Anyway, the streets may simply have been to hot for Jack, and he may have been looking for a safer way to conduct his "sport". If he knew about, or had found out about, Mary, and her room, he may have changed his MO.
As simple as that. Several other serial killers have changed their behaviour to suit the situation, and many have changed their behaviour to avoid capture.
If that is the case concerning Jackie boy, we need not concern us with any change in MO at all.
Although it must be noted that two of Jack's most important hallmarks are still there; murder of a prostitute, and extensive post kill mutilations.
I guess my gut feeling is that Kelly was asleep in bed when the attack occurred. However, I think Jack was just as cool and calculating as he usually was on this one.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5039
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 8:46 am: |
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Hi Helge
I agree that Jack killed Kelly and that Barnett wasn't Jack (on balance of probabilities). But I think a really cool, calculating Jack, if he already knew of Kelly, would have waited for her to emerge from her room, posed as a customer, gone back with her to her room, and then killed her in his usual efficient manner (though of course there's always the whole Stride quagmire).
If Kelly was killed while asleep, this would imply that Jack instead waited for her to nod off before creeping into her room and hoping for a quick kill (presumably in near darkness). He'd have been attacking her from the other side from which he normally attacked, and he doesn't seem to have managed to strangle her. It all seems a bit risky from Jack's point of view.
The alternative would be Jack posing as a customer, maybe going to bed with her and then killing her while she was asleep. I do have trouble imagining Jack having relations with a woman. Mt gut feeling is that if he posed as a client, he'd have killed her the moment the door was closed, while she was standing up.
Here's one I remember :
SPOCK : We are in a wilderness of arctic characteristics.
MCCOY : He means it's cold.
Robert |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 325
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 9:39 am: |
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Robert,
Well, it's all a quagmire to some extent 
But what if Jack could not pose as a customer with Kelly at all? What if she knew him and that there would be no question of a prostitute/customer relationship?
I guess what I propose is a sort of "semi-domestic" affair. Not domestic as such, but carried out by a serial killer so desperate that he actually kills an aquaintance, one woman he really did not intend to kill initially. I don't think in this scenario that they would have been lovers, friends at best, fleeting acquaintances more probably.
Or maybe Kelly simply was involved with other customers, and Jack maybe never got his chance to accost her, deciding to kill her (indoors) anyway.
There are simply too many variables to be sure, although I totally agree that Jacks expected disposition would be to kill Kelly the instant he got the chance, i.e, right after getting indoors with her.
On the other hand, another scenario would be that Jack may not have been out to kill at all that night. Maybe he figured he would anyway after spending some time with Kelly. Unlikely, IMO, but possible.
This could also explain his change of MO.
Anyway, if the situation was different/difficult, that could also explain why he "botched up" his initial assault, and it may not have been so "clean" as he usually would have managed.
I'm just airing possibilities here, each scenario has advantages and disadvantages.
Here's a good one:
Spock: "Random chance seems to have operated in our favor"
McCoy: "In plain, non-Vulcan English, we've been lucky"
Spock: "I believe I said that, Doctor"
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5040
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:08 am: |
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Hi Helge
Yes, many possibilities. I can't help wondering if the fact that the room next door used to be "the Shed" had anything to do with it. The Shed had apparently only recently been discontinued by McCarthy. A rainy night...someone wants shelter...front door locked, try the back way?
(SHIP LURCHES VIOLENTLY AND CREW ARE HURLED IN ALL DIRECTIONS)
UHURA : What happened, Mr Spock?
SPOCK : The side of my head appears to have impacted with the arm of the chair.
Robert |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 331
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
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Robert,
LOL, You know your Star Trek, I see!
Kirk directs the search party to beam to the last coordinates of the transporter room in the deserted science lab:
McCoy: "Where are we going?"
Kirk: "Where they went."
McCoy: "What if they went nowhere?"
Kirk: "Then this will be your big chance to get away from it all."
***
Maybe someone actually more aquanted with the Shed, or McCarthy's business in general, rather than someone knowing MJK?
Live long and prosper.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Eddie Derrico
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:52 am: |
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Richard
I'm confused about the garter now. But anyway, it looks like the murderer wrote the letters on her leg with his finger. You're right about the circular cut too. It's a perfect circle. Could be a garter like I previously thought. Here's an update on the letters. My children took the book to school. They showed it to about 20 others. All saw some of the letters. About 7 or 8 saw the IGGY and part of the P . They forgot to ask about the JTR at the top of the knee, but Anthony's teacher brought it up because he saw an R there. Then he was shown the photo sideways and he claimed he could see the other 2 letters(JT), but not very well. He did notice something about the J. I didn't notice it, but now that I looked closely again it is a J with a Loop. More of a Handwriting type letter. Not a Printed one.
Yours Truly
Eddie |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
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Helge,
"I'd say the "garter" is probably a circular cut. But there is no way I'll swear it is. There would be little blood if the cut was done well after death."
I wouldn't swear to it either, and whilst I'd agree that there'd be relatively little blood if the incision happened after death, I'd expect that a circular wound in a flexed leg would gape a little more. I'd also expect a cut to get significantly wider towards the front of the shin, where the skin is thinner and more taut, than at its base, where the skin is fatty and loose.
As it is, the "wound" seems to keep very neatly to a width of - I guess - 3 millimetres all the way round, altogether more regular than I'd expect a cut to be - that level of precision would be incredibly difficult to achieve and would serve no purpose, even to a loony like JTR. If you look at the awful jagged wound above the right knee, where Jack all but flensed Mary's flesh, I get the distinct impression that neat, circular incisions were the last thing on the killer's mind.
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Eddie Derrico
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 8:03 am: |
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Hello Everyone
It looks to me like the letters were written on with blood using his finger. Not cut on. Look at the M. It looks like he smeared it on. I think the best thing to do is bring this book to the Ripper Convention if they are having it in Baltimore agian. I live 45 minutes away.
My explanation for these letters not being an illusion is this. I showed the photo to people who are not interested or don't know anything about JTR. They all saw the same letters. "Piggy" is the name Maybrick called Sarah Robertson who was his mistress. The JTR across the knee is his Trademark, of course. How can blood splatter in such a coincidental way. These people are not looking for "M"s or "JTR".
I'm asking anyone who doesn't believe these are letters to show them to a few people who don't know what the photo is about. Try to show them while outside or under good lighting. They are there.
Once again, last evening, my daughter's friend was at our home. She showed her the photo. It took her only a few seconds to see the "PIGGY and the JTR at the knee.
As for the police missing these clues, I would say it is because of the mess they saw when they arrived. Even to a Policeman, this must have been a great shock to see a body in that condition with all that mess and blood in the room. Why the Coroner didn't see the letters, I can't explain, unless they were rubbed off while moving the body.
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
ohnjay
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:58 pm: |
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if the word is piggy then kermit the frog is jack |
Eddie Derrico
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 1:05 pm: |
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Debra
You could be right about the stockings. It probably is her skin. It seems like JTR had so much time that night, he was going crazy writing the clues on Mary and the Wall. I guess you already watched shows about seriel killers. Many leave more clues because, deep inside, they want to be caught. I think that is the case here. I would bet there is more writing on other parts of the body not photographed. There was so much blood around, the police missed it. I read HELTER SKELTER a long time ago and remember one of the Manson Family members was found shot to death with a .22 caliber. A few days after the murder, a policeman found a .22 caliber pistol, not far from the crime scene, and he threw it away. You tell me. What were they thinking.
Yours Truly
Eddie |
Eddie Derrico
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:44 pm: |
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Hello Everybody
Maybe my book has a better photo than some of the others. I just sent my registration in to Casebook, so I'll be a member shortly. I will mail the book to someone who wants to check the letters out. It is "PIGGY". Maybrick's Mistress before he married Florence. And possibly during his marriage to Florence. My Son saw the letters and also my Daughter. I took the book to a few neighbors who don't have any clue who the Ripper was. They also see "PIGGY". You should take the book outside in the daylight and use a magnifyer. You will see it. There is another set of letters all the way up the stocking by the knee. It is not a clue but I would call it the Murderer's Trademark. I didn't see it at first, but when I was showing the book to others, the one lady said she sees 3 more letters. Take another look with the magnifyer. Hold the book as if Mary was standing up. It's very faint, but it is there.
Yours Truly
Eddie |
Eddie Derrico
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 9:29 am: |
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Helge
You could be right about the circle being a cut instead of a garter. If she was dead, the blood wouldn't run because there is no more circulation in the body.
Yours Truly
Eddie |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 5:02 pm: |
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Hello Ed,
By squinting at it and applying a lot of imagination I think I can make out the letters "SEX". However, if we're looking at the same thing Jack would've needed a very fine brush, or pencil-thin fingers, to have written such small letters there.
On the other hand, it's so indistinct it might as well be "BHS" - perhaps Mary bought her socks from British Home Stores? Apologies to non-Brits who might not see the - intended - tongue in cheek humour in that ;o)
Joking apart, will you at some point be letting us in on what you and your son have spotted? We might all be looking in entirely the wrong area - It's happened before!
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 105
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:33 pm: |
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I see there has been a coach party in, I will have to catch up later! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5043
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:43 pm: |
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Helge, I was thinking maybe someone who had used the shed in the past, and didn't know it had been closed down.
CREWMAN : Sorry, Mr Spock, but we humans have a thing called adrenaline.
SPOCK : Indeed! I recommend you have it removed.
Robert
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 748
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
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Eddie - With all due respect, you need to walk away from the Maybrick book. There is no writing on Kelly's leg - see my post above.
Gareth - A very good point in regards to the garter and the lacey frills. I can see it too but we do have to make sure it is not just a result of ghosting as you get in low res shots, where you get some kind of film around sharp parts of the image, and that may be what we are seeing here.
I agree that the garter may be raised above the skin, but by the same token where is disappears at the top of the leg it also looks like it is cutting INTO the skin. It's an optical illusion and I wouldn't like to say which is right.
If it is indeed cutting into the skin then we could still have our circular cut.
However, we also have to temper this with the fact that SOMETHING is missing from the report. There is no mention of a garter OR a circular cut so that line of enquiry is closed to us.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 106
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
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Eddie
Ok, so the lettering was written in blood and there was so much mess around that nobody noticed it, and by the time her body arrived at the mortuary the lettering had been rubbed away, so what about the fact that the police had THE ORIGINAL crime scene photographs to study at their leisure shortly after the event and not one of them noticed the important clue?
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 107
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:00 pm: |
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Helge and Robert
This thread has become a bit of a jumble and hard to follow.
But regarding your earlier posts on whether MJK was sleeping or not, I tend to agree with Robert, I think her killer crept in while she was asleep on the right hand side of the bed and went straight to cutting her throat.
she may have been aware of something for a few hazy moments, enough to put up a half hearted struggle hence some defence wounds to her arms.
Robert I have seen the shed mentioned before but not paid much attention, interesting idea.
Helge I didn't think about the killer rolling the bedding out of the way himself, and that would make some sense as it would clear the way for him to start the mutilations and mean that MJK could have been in a normal comfortable sleeping arrangement. I have said before on another thread that I think he may have used the sheet that is entwined around her body to drag her across to the other side of the bed to begin the mutilations.
I say killer because unlike you both I am not 100% convinced Mary was a victim of JTR, but neither do I favour Barnett as her killer.
Debra
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 336
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:06 pm: |
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Eddie,
So no one reads my stuff about pareidolia, then?
First of all, this is not the photo to look at! It's printed in a book, is therefore made up of a matrix of dots that hides and distorts real detail. Shapes may become smaller or larger than they actually are, and it is all a mess, really.
At least look at the high resolution image of the photo that is on Casebook. But do not blow it up to more than 100%, because then you'll get all sorts of digital artefacts, and it all becomes a mess again.
Just a few technical hints, and I used to work as a professional on printing, in case you wondered.
Welcome to Casebook, by the way!
Gareth,
You hit the nail on the head, we can make anything out of it! And that does not bode well for any theory of letters actually being there!
Robert,
Yes, that is as good a guess as any. And now that I see what you meant, your theory seems to make a bit more sense.
However, I'm not sure I'll buy that scenario. For much of the same reason I don't buy a copycat. Few people at the time would do that much damage even if killing in a frenzy, and somehow I see Jack just popping in as something of a coincidence. I also think most East Enders knew their neighbourhood pretty well.
But, it is an interesting possibility, and NOT easily discounted!
Scott: "Now this is a drink for a man."
Checkov: "Scotch?"
Scott: "Aye."
Checkov: "It vas inwented by a little old lady in Leningrad."
Keep em' coming 
Philip,
VERY good points. I have looked for any drawing of MJK's wounds, and found none. Not surprisingly, because if my memory serves, none is in existence today (Anyone? Am I right?) If that is the case, we are clearly lacking information, and the cut does not necessarily become a problem at all.
For what it is worth, with all the mutilation going on (literally hundreds of cuts and slashes), I don't think it that odd that one cut is not mentioned. After all, the statement at the inquest must have been an abridged version of the post-mortem.
Debra,
You beat me to it! Good points! Besides, there were three medical doctors present before the body was removed, plus police detectives. And, of course, the photographer. None spotted any writing. And all did their jobs in all other respects than actually spotting any writing, perhaps the most important clue there was...
And, as you say, neither did they later, looking over the original photos. Very good point!
I'd say the odds that there was any words written anywhere is astronomically small!
What we all should do is look at the high resolution image. There are no letters there! And the reason is that the letters we see (or don't) are artefacts created during the enhancement/printing process of the Diary.
THAT I'm willing to bet money on!
And, before anyone see what I saw, there is no garter either. It looks like there is when one enlarges the image, but it's all digital artefacts caused by the contrast between the skin color and the wound. Those highlights are exactly the same as the highlights of the skin, and therefore almost certain to be of the same colour as the skin. The symmetrical distribution are due to the digital compression of Jpeg's.
Don't EVER enlarge digital images without knowing what that does to details! It wrecks them! And then we start seeing things.
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 23, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 337
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:13 pm: |
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Debra,
I am not 100& certain MJK was killed by JtR, I'm never that dogmatic. But I think there is enough of his MO left, even if this is a very different scenario than the previous murders, to make that a probability. Add to that the fact that statistically there should not be that many people around in Whitechapel at the time capable of such a crime, and the odds tips clearly towards the Ripper, in my opinion.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 109
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:29 pm: |
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Helge
I know you said you don't get time to check out all the threads, but I am hoping AP Wolf will start a very interesting thread soon about the so called 'Torso murders', much under-discussed and in my opinion very relevant to the murder of MJK
One to check in future I think
Debra |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 339
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:36 pm: |
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Thanks, Debra,
Allready on top of that one, though. AP always has my attention
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 156
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:58 pm: |
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Hi All
Please direct me to the picture showing me these letters that are supposedley on Mary's leg. I seem to have missed it somewhere.
I don't usually read the Maybrick posts so I obviously missed it.
Please fill me in. I know there were supposed initials on the wall in Mary's room, that I really didn't ponder much, however I would have thought it impossible to see initials on her leg, since the skin was peeled off and there was so much blood.
regards
Julie
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 110
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:01 pm: |
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actually can anyone put a link here to the high res. pic of MJK please, I can't find it either |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 111
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
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So I have just seen Helge...maybe for different reasons to me judging by your post! |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 340
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:15 pm: |
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Debra,
The Foxy Fox thing have a natural explanation.
I think I once said that a solution to something had to be found by someone more clever than myself, a foxy fox, or something to that effect.
AP Wolf was that fox.
Hahah..
All,
The link to the high res image:
http://casebook.org/images/kelly_trad_HUGE.jpg
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 341
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:19 pm: |
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Julie,
The picture in question is the one of MJK in the Diary of JtR. Before taking a peek there, do look at the high resolution image here on casebook first!
There are no secret messages!
Except, if you start to enhance the picture, you might eventually get some. They would be due to color conversion, chroma decimation, spectral amplitude quantization, and other such wonders that lossy compression invariably conjures up.
And, no, it does not get any more real just because it has fancy names.
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 23, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 112
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Helge
She is certainly more clever than most!
thanks for the link
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 342
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:28 pm: |
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Debra,
Well, she is more clever than I am, that's for sure
And you are welcome.
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 113
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
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there is absolutely nothing there!...thank goodness!! |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 343
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:32 pm: |
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Well, if there had been, I would be getting scared...
LOL
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1483
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:34 pm: |
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Hi,
At last we are getting a good conversation going regarding a serious topic.
Although i have had a busy day at work [ whats new] i have been going over in my mind several points.
We must assume as it is not a mirage or trick photography that the bundle that appears on the bed is either.
a] kellys clothes[ which has been reported officialy as being neatly folded[ although not on the bed.. so it appears]
Or a bundle [ wrapped] of blanket material].
If that is accepted widely amongst us, then let us examine the two acordingly.
IF is some clothing that Kelly wrapped up in a neat pile like she was in the habit of doing I would suggest as she was alone that night the best place to pile them would be on one of the two chairs in her room not on the bed especially on the side of the bed she was used to sleeping on.
If it was a pile of bankets [ or blanket] then why would that pile not have been unfolded to cover herself upon retiring for the night?.
If it was a pile of bed clothes this implies as the covers were not used that she was killed before she had a chance literally to 'Make the bed'
Lets be practical and suggest that a cold and wet kelly parading the streets would hardly retire for the night in a chemise or a bottom or even a top sheet. when there was blankets or blanket availiable.
All of this implies that Kelly was killed whilst undressing in front of a client[ wide awake] and she had either no intention or was given no time for possible covering.
It could even suggest that kelly was infact killed in the daylight hours after reported sightings and had infact made her bed already rolling back her nightime blankets for the next night, and was encouaged back to bed by either a client?. or someone who had a reason to get her undressed and in bed mode for a alibi, who could have not realised that the bed roll was given the impression that she had already woken on a new day.
A bit confusing but i have just arrived home from a busy day and a two hour session [ pub] with work colleques.
Regards Richard. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 344
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:55 pm: |
|
I get your points, Richard.
Personally I still think it most probable that the killer ruffled up the bed to the state we see during the attack/mutilations, and also him that rolled away the nightime blankets to gain access to mutilate the allready dead Kelly.
Remember, there also seem to be blankets in disarray on the bedside table, which seems like an odd place for them, except we know the killer used it for his convenience!
The "daytime scenario" is new to me, but just might work as well!
I have to mull this over, but now, I'm off to bed.
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 23, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5044
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:56 pm: |
|
Hi folks
Just to say I'm not 100% certain that Kelly was killed by Jack, but I think it's pretty likely.
If he did creep into her room and stabbed her face through the sheet to shut her up, then I think that illustrates his panic, because the logical thing to do would have been to put the pillow over her face (as Mr Spock would confirm). Yet the pillow is still under her head in the photo.
Helge, I'm running out of humorous ones!
Uhura says something like : "Mr Spock, pretend we're on Vulcan. Serenade me by the light of the moon."
SPOCK : But Vulcan has no moon.
UHURA : No, Mr Spock, I didn't expect it would....
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 114
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:56 pm: |
|
Richard
But there is the scanario that Helge described...that the killer rolled back the bedclothes |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 346
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
|
Robert,
I read that one just before getting under my night blankets (brrr...why did that make me shiver?)
Just to keep you going:
Kirk: "Mr. Spock, the women on your planet are logical. That's the only planet in the galaxy that can make that claim."
Ok, apologies, Ladies, I did not say it, it was the Captain...
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 23, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
|
Christopher J Morley
Sergeant
Username: Cjmorley
Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
|
Hi Everyone, Am I the only Ripperologist left who has failed to see the letters 'Piggy' on Mary Kelly's leg?. Piggy was supposedly James Maybrick's nickname for his mistress. I do hope this sudden discovery does not mean another Shirley Harrison - Maybrick book is in the works. |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 115
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:27 pm: |
|
I never saw Piggy, in fact I didn't see anything!...no surely not another book ...I have been stung twice already! |
Ally
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Ally
Post Number: 1067
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:50 pm: |
|
I've got it! The killer was acting out the nursery rhyme! Polly nichols was standing in front of the grocers store when the killer spied her! This little piggy went to the market!
Then we have Chapman. Her regular bed was # 29 and she was killed at 29 Hanbury street! This little piggy stayed home!
Okay now the next one is tricky technically it should be This little piggy ate roast beef and in fact she ate Kidney but hey..the killer had to work with what he could.
Eddowes...she said she was nothing! Nothing is the same as none, almost. This little piggy had none!
And this little piggy cried wee wee all the way home! Technically, she sang all the way home but hey!
It is so obvious now.
(Message edited by Ally on September 23, 2005)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5045
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 6:07 pm: |
|
Ally, you are forgetting Kelly's French connection.
"Oui, oui" was what she sang.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1484
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 3:18 am: |
|
Hi Debra,
Surely her killer would not have calmly folded up a roll of bedding he would have merely slung them off the bed, kelly however was noted as a person who kept a pride in her appearence, and had a habit of folding up what clothes she had upon retiring, however i am intriqued what that bolster type object is on the table?.
Richard. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 349
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 3:51 am: |
|
Richard,
Even if you adress that question to Debra, I take the liberty to comment, since I think it was me that proposed that scenario in the first place, and because I had a new idea this morning.
First of all, we cannot know what the killer would do or not do. All we can do is to make suggestions based on the evidence available. But I know you agree.
To me that roll of bedding does not seem properly made up, not like I would expect a woman (God bless their tidiness) to have made. It looks rather to be hastily done to me.
Just like Jack might have done it.
We cannot know why he did it, but I propose he simply rolled it off to get access to the body. It makes sense. Why not toss it on the floor? I don't know, it was not found on the floor so that was not what happened.
One though occurred to me, and it is only a proposition. Maybe he actually used the bedding to pose Kelly, to prop up her leg?
The head tilted, looking at people, the general pose. Everything looks like it was staged for maximum effect.
Just a thought.
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 24, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
|
Jane Coram
Chief Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 584
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 7:10 am: |
|
HI all,
The only other explanation I could think of, which might tentatively explain the roll of bedding at the end of the bed is that the police and/or photographer actually rolled it up to act as a prop for the camera to take the second smaller shot. It does appear that the shot was taken with the camera placed on that roll of bedding, so if Jack or Mary did leave it there, it was extraordinarily convenient for them.
Other bedding was definitely moved. The eiderdown on the table in the second shot in not there in the first.....so it is safe to assume that the police were not too worried about moving the bedding about, or indeed the furniture, quite possibly for convenience. It may well be that Jack left the bedding strewn everywhere, and what we are seeing there has nothing to do with the crime at all......just a thought.
Janie
xxxx |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 353
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 8:26 am: |
|
Jane,
Good points. And maybe we are thinking too much in terms of modern crime scene forensics.
Although, one thing does remain certain. The rolled up blankets are not UNDER MJK. And that tells me they were probably OVER her when the attack ocurred.
Unless Kelly simply was a slob and left her bedding in this disarray as a rule.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
|
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 354
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 8:34 am: |
|
Oh, just one question.
In Norway it is not customary to keep the night blankets (or what you call it) rolled up in bed, rather they are always made up ready for use even during the day. It just struck me that maybe it was different in England, especially 1888?
And, another thing. Maybe Kelly used her bed as a kind of sofa when not in use as bed? That kind of upsets our entire reasoning here!
However, as she was undressed, and her clothes neatly folded up by the fireplace, I still think the odds are that she had actually gone to bed when the attack occurred.
And those who know I used to favour the Jack as John scenario, will notice that this is not necessarily compliant with that notion.
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 24, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
|
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 116
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 8:36 am: |
|
Richard
I won't answer the question on the bed roll ( and I think it does look more rolled than folded) as I would just be repeating what Helge said.
But yes, what is that on the table?
Do you think it would be better to move these questions onto another thread now Richard? I think most of us posting on this thread think that there is no writing on Kelly's leg and would like to move away from that now.
Helge and Jane
You both give similar scenarios for why the bedding roll was in that position, for posing the body, either by the killer or by the photographers and police.
The police would definitely want to get the best shots they could of all the injuries, so it makes sense that they might have had to prop her leg up to get a full length shot where everything was visible, and then use the roll to prop the camera on for the shot from the other angle.
Jane, you say the eiderdown ( is that what it is!) isn't on the table in first shot, but isn't that part of the table out of view on that shot?
Debra |
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