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Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 1:42 pm: | 
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I mentioned a few weeks ago that I was "on the trail" of a plausible Mary Kelly, so here is what I have pieced together so far. It's a bit of a saga, so please bear with me. This Mary Kelly, born around 1855 probably in Ireland, has a family that I tracked through several Censuses as below:
1861 Census - Halket St (house number not given), Llandaf, Cardiff
Daniel Kelly (Head), Married, 35, Marine Stove Dealer, b. Ireland
Mary (Wife), Married, 30, b. Ireland
Elizabeth (Daur), Single, 8, Scholar, b. Ireland
Margaret (Daur), Single, 7, Scholar, b. Ireland
Mary (Daur), Single, 6, Scholar, b. Ireland
Denis (Son), Single, 2, Scholar, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
Julia (Daur), Single, 7m, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
For info, Halket St was a run-down area of the Canton district of Llandaf where huge numbers of immigrant Irish families settled from the mid-19th Century onwards.
You'll note from the above that the head of the family is called Daniel and was a "Marine Stove Dealer". So, not the foreman at ironworks that Mary mentioned, but there may be a tenuous connection in that marine stoves were typically made out of cast iron. Perhaps by 1861 Mr Kelly senior had lost his job at the foundry, but was still trying to make a living by selling products made there.
At any rate, by 1871 the family seems to have hit hard times. It appears that the mother had died and father and children were split up:
1871 Census - Cardiff Union School
Mary Kelly, Inmate, 13, b. Liverpool
Julia Kelly, Inmate, 11, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
Bridget Kelly, Inmate, 8, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
Ann Kelly, Inmate, 6, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
Note that Cardiff Union School was a residential establishment for pauper children. Note also that Mary's place of birth appears as "Liverpool", rather than "Ireland" as in the previous census. Perhaps the Census taker made an incorrect entry, or perhaps we really should be looking for an MJK who was born in Lancashire to a Daniel and Mary Kelly between 1855 and 1860?
I'm assuming that this is the same Mary Kelly owing to the recurrence of the names Mary, Julia and Bridget (see later) and their rough ages. I cannot find this combination of names anywhere else in the 1871 Wales Census that would account for their absence from the widower Dan Kelly's family, shown "Mary and Julia-less" in the same Census year:
1871 Census - 42, George St, Bedwellty
Dan Kelly (Boarder), Widow, 46, Dealer in Wares, b. Ireland
Denis Kelly (Boy), Single, 11, Labourer, b. Cardiff
Elizabeth Kelly (Boarder), Single, 18, Sempstress , b. Cardiff
Whatever, by 1881 the family seem to have reunited in Halket St, only now they seem to have been joined by some relatives from Ireland, occupying the house next door. It seems very probably that this is the same Kelly clan, as Daniel and (his brother?) John both have the same exotic occupation. It looks like the matriarch, Elizabeth, has also uprooted and moved to Wales.
1881 Census - 38 Halket St, Llandaf, Cardiff
John Kelly (Head), Married, 45, Marine Stove Dealer, b. Ireland
Mary (Wife), Married, 45, b. Ireland
Denis (Son), Single, 19, Labourer, b. Cardiff
John (Son), Single, 12, Scholar, b. Cardiff
Daniel (Son), Single, 11, Scholar, b. Cardiff
1881 Census - 39 Halket St, Llandaf, Cardiff
Elizabeth Kelly (Head), Widow, 84, Pauper , b. Cork, Ireland
Daniel Kelly (Son), Widow, 55, Marine Stove Dealer, b. Cork, Ireland
Julia (Granddaughter), Single, 20, Marine Stove Dealer, b. Cardiff
Bridget (Granddaughter), Single, 17, Domestic Servant, b. Cardiff
The same group of children's names crop up again, albeit split between the two households and with the addition of probably the same Bridget we saw at the poor school in 1871. The ages are close enough (allowing for "Census error") to suggest that we have the same family. However, you may note that we're missing Margaret, Elizabeth and - interstingly - Mary seems to have moved on as well. When I get time, I'll try to track down the missing girls, but I'd be grateful if anyone else would like to lend a hand.
I have at least discovered what happened to Denis Kelly, son of Daniel and, depending on which Census entry you believe, brother of Mary, who appears in the next Census. Given that he was apparently a jobbing labourer in 1881, and joined the army sometime thereafter, it'd be fascinating to know what caused his breakdown in the 10 years between then and this census entry:
1891 Census - Glamorgan District Asylum
Denis Kelly, Single, 28, Soldier (Lunatic) , b. Cardiff
Hope this has been of interest and that it didn't ramble on too long. |
Belinda Pearce
Sergeant
Username: Belinda
Post Number: 45
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 7:12 am: |
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That is very interesting.I know how hard it is to track people from doing family history |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2477
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 9:02 am: |
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Hi Gareth,
Quite a possibility this one!
I have just today been writing on the "tired of the Life" thread here, that Paul Begg,in his book JtR The Facts,came to think the clue Joe Barnett gave about Mary"s brother Johnto[apparently his nickname]was perhaps the most important clue we have in establishing the identity of Mary Kelly.
This ,as I said earlier ,is largely because Joe said the brother who visited Mary was in the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards based in Chelsea,
and this regiment did in fact go first to serve the British Government in Dublin in August 1888 and then in June 1889 to County Kildare returning to England in 1891.Paul Begg wondered whether the letters Mary was said to have received from Ireland were in fact letters from this brother serving in Ireland from the August of 1888[information regarding the letters given to the Press Association by John McCarthy- who claims he had passed these letters on to her].
Now if this man "Johnto" was an Irishman and a Catholic originally from an Ireland where the Irish Republican Brotherhood had recently been formed then moving on through the bombing campaigns, the 1880"s and 90"s Phoenix Park murders the defeat of Home Rule and destruction by scandal of the Parnell on whom so many Irish hopes were pinned etc ----then IMHO we MAY have a possible motive for the murder of Johnto"s sister[Mary Kelly] who was living in an area of London known for its radical and anarchic links bomb making etc-especially if as a soldier of The British Army he was seen to have visited her there in the East End.
So,to cut a long story short what happened to Dennis Kelly,the soldier between 1888 and 1891 is something I too would be very interested to learn about!
Best Natalie
Belinda----there may have been even more to them not appearing at her funeral than we had at first thought! |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 117
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 6:17 am: |
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Gareth
Re tracking down the missing girls, I couldn't resist a little look.
The first most obvious scenario would be that they married sometime after 1881, as traditionally most women marry in the place they come from, regardless of where their groom comes from , I checked marriages in Cardiff.
There was only one Julia Kelly that fitted the timeframe, marrying in June qtr. of 1886 registered in Cardiff. There are two women on the page and only one man Lewis George Symmons.
There was also a Bridget Anne Kelly married in Cardiff Dec qtr 1887 to either Uriah Gray or Jonah Davies.
That is as far as I got though, they might not have married at all and could have moved anywhere really and they are such common names unfortunately. Hope you have had more luck in the meantime.
Natalie thanks for putting the details from Paul Begg's book here, I have been meaning to find more up to date research on Mary's brother for a while.
The last account I read ( I don't remember where) went something along these lines;
Her father was named John and was a foreman in an iron works, and she had a brother named Henry who was in the Scots guards and known by his friends as John too.
Can I ask if it mentions where in England the Scots Guards returned to in 1891? does it mention The Wellington Barracks at all?
Debra
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2478
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 11:31 am: |
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Hi Debra,
Paul Begg states that the army lists record that the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards trandferred
from Chelsea Barracks to Dublin in August 1888 and then to Curragh in County Kildare,where they stayed until retuning to Chelsea in June 1889.He doesnt mention "Wellington"-could it have been a section of Chelsea Barracks?
He states this brother was "possibly" named Henry but known among his comrades as Jonto or Johnto.
An area worth more research I think!
Best Wishes Debra
Natalie
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 120
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 12:13 pm: |
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Thanks for that Natalie
There is a history of the 2nd Battalion Scot's Guards on the web that shows their whereabouts on certain dates .It mentions the Wellington Barracks in 1891. I used 'Wellington Barracks' as a keyword to find them in the 1891 census, but I am not sure if it's the Scots Guards or not.
They were in the Chelsea Barracks on the 1881 census, the two seem to be separate places.
Debra
For anyone interested here is the web address for the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards whereabouts list
http://www.regiments.org/deploy/uk/guards/f3sg-2.htm |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2479
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 2:26 pm: |
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Hi Debra,
Yes I did look that link up last night but couldnt get much from it by way of dates that involved them being stationed in Ireland .PB must have found his information from another source-maybe a book.
The Wellington Barracks were mentioned in relation to the Barracks of the two soldiers interviewed by the police in connection with the murder of Martha Tabram.I therefore assume they were those at the Tower of London.
Natalie |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2989
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Excellent thread here
What interests me is why Denis in 1891 becomes,,Single,28. Soldier,LUNATIC!...
When ten years earlier he was merely Denis Single ,19.. LABOURER!
What happened there I wonder????
Just a thought
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2990
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 4:31 pm: |
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Gosh just realised that I spent all of my 'holidays' as a child in Ely,Canton (Dyfrig Close!!) with my Aunt and Uncle and walks to Llandaff were commonplace!!!
Of no consequence I know ,but suddenly thought! ...Aaaah! |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Suzi,
I think Canton improved a little - although some might argue otherwise! - since this photograph of Halket St was taken in 1892.
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