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James C. Bernthal
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 4:04 pm: | 
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Hello everyone,
As you can probably tell, the final victim of Jack the Ripper is the one I'm least "clued up" on. One point has puzzled me for a while - was this lady's first name Mary Jane, or was Jane a middle name? |
Candy Morgan
Sergeant
Username: Candy
Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 1:32 pm: |
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Hello James!
Ok, don't know how it was in England, but my late mother's full legal name was Mary Jane Drummond, born in Edgeworth, Pennsylvania, and it caused no end of legal problems that her first name was indeed Mary Jane, with no middle name.
She was born in 1927 but was named after her grandmother, Mary Jane Hicks, born in 1875, Sewickly, Pennsylvania, and her legal first name was listed as Mary Jane.
So, yes, I don't know how common it was, but it was done for a child in that time frame to have 2 first names and no middle name.
"What did you do to the cat? It looks half dead." ~ Mrs. Schrodinger
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Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 484
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
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Interesting point.
I think in the USA it is normal for people to have three names, the middle one often the mother's maiden name (have I got that right?).
There is no similar rule in the UK. Many people have two Christian or first names only, some three, some more. So David Jones, is probably as common as David John Jones; and David Galahad, Lancelot Jones is probable but likely to be infrequent.
I would guess - though it is no more than that - that in the late C19th poorer people might have fewer names than the upper classes (where names often related to those of god-parents).
Family names were frequent, so the eldest son was always Henry. The family historians among us will correct me if I am wrong, but with high child mortality rates, a family might have several children all called Henry (of which the earlier ones had died young).
The assumption in the UK would be that a girl called Mary Jane, would be a girl called mary from the JANE family (ie Jane was her surname).
I am not aware in my lifetime, or ever hearing older relatives mention anyone with names such as Sue-Ellen, or similar (as in the Waltons TV show) where Sue-Ellen was a single forename.
I've probably confused more than I have enlightened!!
Phil |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 543
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 2:12 pm: |
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Hi all,
The sad fact is we don't even know if the woman who went by the name "Mary Jane Kelly" actually had claim to any of those three names. Indeed, the only evidence we have is the so far negative findings of many determined researchers. Unless Chris Scott is really on to something new in his forthcoming book (and even his "teaser" in that regard sounded rather tentative), Mary Jane Kelly may really be a dead end in terms of her true name.
It is uncommonly strange that we can easily trace all the victims of the era (Jack's or not) and even find Liz Stride's antecedents in Sweden, but continue to draw blanks on Kelly. But then all we have to work on is what she supposedly told other people, most notably Joe Barnett. And all that, even the name Kelly, may simply have been fantasy.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 519
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 7:12 pm: |
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Hasn't our great and good Alan Sharp uncovered a possible birth certificate for her in Limerick in 1863 with the name MJK?
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2473
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
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Just thought it worth a mention that as I've been trawling through the sad lists of murder in the 'East End' of London, I have noticed that a few of the female victims had corrupted their original English forename - or middle name - to affect a French background.
Most commonly Lucy to Louisa and Mary to Maria.
It seems to have been quite a fashionable thing to do, but plays the devil with the modern search engines. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 993
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 2:11 pm: |
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In regard to the naming convention in the US:
It is by far the most common in America for a child to be given a "first name," a "middle name," and a "last name." It is not unheard of for a child to be given two middle names or no middle name at all. The mother's maiden name is usually not a factor except perhaps among aristocracy. (Although my own son has his mother's maiden name for a middle name but that is because it is also a common forename, "Allen").
I suspect that among the middle and upper classes in Victorian England the name considered to be most correct would be the baptismal name. Among the lower classes names may not have had much formality at all.
Andy S. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 895
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 2:16 am: |
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Middle names were often taken from those of godparents of the right sex.
It might be of interest that, particularly with sons, some families had a family name (for instance, Henry, Frederick, etc) hopefully inherited by the eldest son. In a time of high infant mortality, the first son born and christened (say) Henry) might die young, and the name would then be successively bestowed on other children as they were bor until one lived. I understand this is a bedevillment to genealogists who have to differentiate between several Henry's in the same generation of one nuclear family.
AP - how was Mary pronounced in the LVP do you know. Slightly later the musical hall artiste Marie Lloyd, I believe, pronounced her name as MAHRI; and I recall older people pronouncing Maria and MAR-I-YAH.
Phil |
Belinda Pearce
Sergeant
Username: Belinda
Post Number: 44
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 3:47 am: |
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Those were the old pronuciations Sophia used to be pronounced so it sounded like sapphire.Mary Jane,Sarah Jane (remember Dr Who) were common hyphenated names Inspector Dew always refers to her as Marie |
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