| Author |
Message |
    
Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 4:08 pm: |       |
Hi Nina. I'm familiar with the early stays that were indeed corsets, but I thought that the term was later used to refer to the garter-type thingies, especially as garters were attached to corsets by the end of the 1900's.
Polly Nichols "pair of brown stays" surely does not refer to two corsets? I'm not certain myself, but it seems to mean something else. Sorry if this is leaning off topic, but it does refer back to someone else's argument.
-K
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 28
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 4:18 pm: | |
Hi Kelly,
The following link has an example of 19th century short brown stays which seem to fit the description of the stays that Polly Nichols was wearing.
http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/ppbrokil.html
Nina |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 29
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
Kelly,
You have to scroll down a bit on the site to see it.
Nina |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1264
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 4:28 pm: | |
Well done Kelly and Nina!!
You may just have some ECWS or Sealed Knot contacts here!!! Right hands up I have in a previous incarnation too!!!!!
OK I think we have a point here re stockings and stays!
GOD! this garter has to go 'eh!!!!!!
All together girls!!!! it's a C U T !!
Nick Warren may be able to help us all out here!?
NICK!!!!!!!!!!!!! help!
Cheers
Suzi
|
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 4:56 pm: | |
well done Kelly and Nina!!
You may just have some ECWS or Sealed Knot contacts here!!! Right hands up I have in a previous incarnation too!!!!!
OK I think we have a point here re stockings and stays!
GOD! this garter has to go 'eh!!!!!!
All together girls!!!! it's a C U T !!
Nick Warren may be able to help us all out here!?
NICK!!!!!!!!!!!!! help!
Cheers
Suzi
|
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1266
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 4:59 pm: | |
oooooooooh God twice!!!!!
Sorry chaps thats what happens when you get some fool on messenger at the same time!!!!!!
Anyway!!!!!!!!!!!sorry!
x suzi |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 30
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 5:04 pm: | |
Suzi,
Previous incarnation in the English Civil War Society? OH!!! Now I remember where we met. It's been a long time.
Yes! It's a CUT!!!
By the way, who is Nick Warren?
Nina |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 9:46 am: | |
Hi everyone
Garter's are mentioned in one of the press reports for Polly Nichols.
In a report in the Star 31 aug 1888 on the Nichols murder ( before she was identified )
the reporter gave a description of the victim and her clothing in which he mentions ' braid garters'
I don't know whether this would be an elastic type thing or just like trimming braid tied around the stocking.
>>Writing at half-past eleven a.m., our reporter says:-
The body appeared to be that of a woman of 35. It was 5ft. 3in. in height and fairly plump. The eyes were brown, the hair brown, and the two centre upper front teeth missing, those on either side being widely separated. This peculiarity may serve to identify deceased, of whom at present writing nothing is known. Her clothing consisted of a well-worn brown ulster, a brown linsey skirt, and jacket, a gray linsey petticoat, a flannel petticoat, dark-blue ribbed stockings, braid garters, and side-spring shoes. Her bonnet was black and rusty, and faced with black velvet. Her whole outfit was that of a person in poor circumstances, and this appearance was borne out by the mark
"LAMBETH WORKHOUSE, P. R.," <<
Debra
|
Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 10:16 am: | |
Thanks Debra and Nina. I'm still confused as to Nichols' "pair of brown stays". It's the "pair" part that confuses me if it's a corset. Would a pair refer to one {because it covers two breasts!}, or did she have two of them on?
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1140
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 3:43 pm: | |
My Nan used to wear what she called a pair of stays.I used to try them on sometimes when I was little.They were a pink colour and boned with suspenders and at either side there were loads of hooks and eyes.I dont know how old they were or any thing but they wouldnt have been Victorian I dont suppose. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1276
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 3:58 pm: | |
GOD! Nina!!!
Remember Sutton Scotney and the great WET!?
Nats!!!!
Oh God those surgical pink things!!!!!!! my nan used to wear em to and I hate to say it my Mum affected em from time to time!!!GOD! remember those huge wide thick pink sussies tho with silver attatchments!!!!!! (Easy Richard!)
God!!! I remember my mum always used to keep a sixpence in her pocket in case her sussies gave way and the back fell off so she could put the 6d up behind said sussie and hold the brute in place!!!
Good tip 'eh girls!!!
cheers
Suzi |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1141
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 4:22 pm: | |
Oh but those wonderful Christmas Stockings Suzi!
First you"d spy the orange and apple and then....oh then ......oh my what treasures unfolded after I"d waited up all night for that stocking! |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1278
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 5:05 pm: | |
oooooooooooooooooooh !!God the tangarine in the toe always did it for me!!!
God Nats do you remember waking up at 3 00 am and then waiting?? ps are you on msn mgr?? if not why not!
will do it if you want to and we can gossip away !
xxsuzi!! |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1142
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 5:18 pm: | |
No not yet,no problem email is ok Suzi.
Anyway to get back to the thread, I think they were called a "pair" because they provided suspenders for both legs.....so Hey Suspender...was that Dear old Danny La Rue in the days of Hansom Cabs or thereabouts....???
Take Care
Nats |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 5:35 pm: | |
Nats!
Didn't Shirley Bassey do that!!!!..God am turning into the lovely Mr Linford!!!!!!
You toooo
Suzi |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1144
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 5:41 pm: | |
Yes and I think Danny took her off!!!I think he shouted Hey big somethings...bit of a one Danny.Brilliant.Have emailed you. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3028
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 6:37 pm: | |
Did I hear my name mentioned?
I know that Shirley Bassey used to sing "Goldfinger" but after she turned 60 it was "Oldsinger".
Robert |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 33
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 7:37 pm: | |
Suzi,
Just one more comment on garters. 
Kelly,
The Star of September 3 mentions the following: The Coroner said he was anxious to see these stays, and they were sent for. He wanted to know whether they were injured; he thought they should have protected the body.
I also came across this victorian photo that shows both men and woman's garters.
Nina 
|
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1059
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 3:08 am: | |
Hi Nina,
naughty but nice, however does not the calf length hosiery ring a bell, there does appear to be exactly the same pattern as on the left leg of kelly.
Richard. |
Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 83
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:14 am: | |
Nina, thanks a ton. The "pair" thing always threw me, but if the coroner thought they should have protected the body we're definitely dealing with the traditional stays and not another use of the word.
All clear now,
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1358
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:52 am: | |
Nina,
How many legs ???!!!
Monty
Ow, Ive just been doin time Sha-mone....It aint so bad !...I aint no Jack da Ripper - Dr Thomas Neill Cream |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 3:40 pm: | |
HI ALL!
Wow!!Hi Mont!!
Oooooooooooooooh my god three at the first look but oooooooooooh god ! theres another one just out of pic to the bottom!(!¬) Wow!!ODD legs in the middle tho but this 'seems' to be a man on woman thing here!!!!
NINA! where did you get that pic from!!!!!!!!! he he he
Cheers Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1286
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 4:12 pm: | |
Hi all
Right! have just had another look at the Spry Colourised pic of the 2 pix!!!!!
Without a doubt I think Bob has a point here The angle is PERFECT! and the height of the camera etc etc would seem to be as good as it gets to being SPOT ON!
Cheers
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 4:14 pm: | |
Corsets/Stays/Stockings! oooooooooh god girls!!! there are some LOVELY points here!!!! and it's great!!!!!
Lets go girls!!!
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1288
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 4:16 pm: | |
MONT!
Just enough!!!!! mayber one or two too many tho! xx suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3036
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 4:27 pm: | |
Monty, Suzi
I think in "Animal Farm" there's a line that goes something like "Four legs good. Two legs baa-a-d."
Two legs, Kosminski.
Robert |
Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 85
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 5:27 pm: | |
Hey, Richard---
Nina's picture has me convinced. You are absoutely right about that being a stocking. It's uncanny--gave me goosebumps!
Mags |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 35
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 5:33 pm: | |
Richard,
Its possible that it was a garter, but I still believe thats its a cut. I can't see any stockings.
Kelly,
Glad to help.
Monty,
Four legs!!!! 
Suzi,
Actually, its a woman on man thing.
I have a link to the site but I'm not sure if it would be allowed on the boards as it contains graphic victorian pornography.
Nina
|
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 7:13 pm: | |
Robert!!! eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek! think you may have a point tho!!!!
Mont- get countin!
Nina go on email me that site gotta been seen - in the nature of research you understand
Richard
Still think its a cut but hope there's not a matching pair here!!!
Cheers(pulling 'em up!)
Suzi |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 36
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:09 pm: | |
Suzi,
Sent you an email. What we must do in the name of research.
Nina |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1063
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 5:01 pm: | |
Hi Maria,
There is no doubt in my mind that Kelly had a stocking or a mans sock on her right leg, but the left is absent.
As the strip over the bundle is identical to the right leg material , i still consider it the sock or stocking off her left leg, which suggests that she was killed whilst removing her socks[ stockings].
Richard. |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 236
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 5:08 pm: | |
Thankyou Nina for that site:
http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/ppbrokil.html
Previously I had believed that 'stays' were another name for 'corset'. And as the corset extended in some cases below the waist I was concerned that some wounds described in the press as 'to the breastbone' would cut through a corset.
However, I now see that James Hatfield described the stays removed from Nichols body as 'short', in other words much like todays brazier, it didnt extend much below the breastline, so she could have sustained a wound ripping up to the breastbone without cutting through the 'short-stays'.
That picture has clarified the situation, regardless of the accuracy of the statement, at least it now appears feasible.
Regards, Jon |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 237
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 5:17 pm: | |
Hi Richard:
"There is no doubt in my mind that Kelly had a stocking or a mans sock on her right leg, but the left is absent."
Me too, well, little doubt anyway.
"...i still consider it the sock or stocking off her left leg, which suggests that she was killed whilst removing her socks[ stockings]."
Not the Ripper's style though, eh?, again, these hints lean towards the proposal that Kelly was killed by someone she knew, an intimacy more private than common prostitution?.
regards, Jon |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1292
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 7:57 pm: | |
Nina!!!!!!
Just going to do some research!!!!!! Didnt dare open it at work where I picked up yr email!!!!!! will be back!!!!
Cheers!!
Suzi
(adjusting my garters as I type! lol! )
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3044
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 1:58 am: | |
Richard, I'm not sure about this whole stocking thing. However, I'd like to point out that even if Kelly had a stocking on her leg, and another one on the bed, she need not have been killed while getting undressed. She could have been killed while getting dressed.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1065
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 4:21 am: | |
Hi Robert,
Good point Robert, there is always a opposite meaning.
However if we take the view that kelly was right handed, let us conduct a experiment sit on a bed with a pair of socks, i bet the majority of people put one on there left foot first, this being the case the left stocking would have been the one seen.
Now do the opposite when in the pretence of going to bed, again most likely to remove the left foot first.
Elementary my dear Robert.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3046
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 5:01 am: | |
Amazing, Holmes! But how do you deduce that Kelly was right-handed?
Robert |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 286
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 1:19 pm: | |
You know, I always thought people put socks on in the opposite order that Richard says. Right handed means right first, right? Either way it certainly isn't something one can count on.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1066
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 1:33 pm: | |
Hi Dan,
It would be intresting to hold a poll on what foot a right handed person puts on a stocking/sock first.
Talking personally I Always put my left on first and i am right handed.
Dan.
If [and only if] kellys right leg , and the cut type marking was infact the top of the stocking/sock, we could suggest that as the left appears absent of such a garment, that she either had a strange habit of wearing one to bed , or she was killed whilst nearly completing undressing, or she was killed whilst in the early stages of getting dressed.
This may give us a new insight to events in that room regardless of the time of death.
Richard. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1293
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 2:49 pm: | |
Oooooooooooooooooooooooh GOD! Boys!!!!!
Right in the nature/science purely for research ...
(thanks Nina..wow!)... Have sat down.. and withot thinking(!) taken off the first stocking that came to hand!)OK am Right handed but it was the right one that came off first(!) if any stocking(!) was to be left !!!! on it'd be the LEFT one!!!!
Ps Nina I think we have evidence here between all the other stuff(he he!) re garters etc etc
Richard! just a daft thought but maybe just maybe our Jack looked at the 'garter'line and decided to cut around that luine???? Hence a cut and a garter!!!!!!!
suzi
|
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 238
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 3:19 pm: | |
Natalie:, you offered..
"I think they were called a "pair" because they provided suspenders for both legs....."
You may be right, personally I think "a pair of stays" contains the same logic that "a pair of pants" does for men.
Foibles of the English language 
Robert/Richard.
As right-handed as I am I never gave it a thought which sock I put on/pull off first, but you're right, its the left, I always do but I never realized it.
Geez, the things you find out about yourself when talking to others
Regards, Jon
(a creature of habit)
(Message edited by Jon on September 18, 2004) |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1296
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 3:49 pm: | |
Hi
As far as I know 'STAYS' were always known as a pair...Oddly I don't know why ..! maybe because the two halves came together at the back/front so it appeared to be two things!!! ..Oh God I dont know but it's a thought!
Having worn the damned things(!) thety are seriously the 'devils work!!! so who cares really!
Robert/Richard!!
Will not take off my sox tonight without thinking of you two!!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1067
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 4:41 pm: | |
Hi Suzi,
Go for the left girl.. this site is turning into a exotic site, or should i say a cheesy one[ forgive the pun].
Richard. |
Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 85
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 5:19 pm: | |
Richard,
Another possibility is that one stocking was removed postmortem by the Ripper. Who knows why, and as you said it's only IF there's one stocking on to start with, but there is the remote possibility that she did not remove it herself.
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 239
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 5:21 pm: | |
Yes Suzi, but pants were always knows as 'pairs' too !!
Potential for another useless thread?..."Idiosyncrasies of the English language".
Goods moved over land is shipping, but goods moved by ship is cargo, go figure!!
Jon |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1298
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 5:43 pm: | |
Jon!
I HATE that phrase!!!!
Richard
Exotic eh!! sorry but still despite all this can't see em as stockings of whatever length or garterage!!!!
Kelly
Why did the 'ripper ' remove one stocking then? to keep his stash of uterii and kidneys and the occasional heart in???
Mont
Have got the site!!! dear God!!!!!!!! he he tho!
Cheers
Suzi |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 38
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 7:24 pm: | |
Jon,
A Pair of Stays to mend the Shape
Of crooked Humpy Woman,
Put on, O Venus; now thou art
Quite a Venetian Roman.
William Blake 1757-1827
Nina |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 7:32 pm: | |
Richard,
I'm right handed and it's my left stocking on/off first.
I looked and looked but I still coudn't see a stocking. 
Nina |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 242
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 7:36 pm: | |
Thanks Nina.
My mother, who is visiting with us from England right now (in her late 70's), suggested to me that she thought 'a pair of stays' referred to the two primary bones, one on each side to support the breasts.
Regards, Jon |
Nina Thomas
Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 40
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 7:45 pm: | |
Suzi,
just a daft thought but maybe just maybe our Jack looked at the 'garter'line and decided to cut around that luine???? Hence a cut and a garter!!!!!!!
I had the exact same daft thought!
Is Monty doing research too?
Nina  |
