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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1132
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 12:06 am: |       |
It is is well known that Kelly allegedly stayed at one time with a Mrs. Carthy of Breezer's Hill (see separate thread and article under dissertations.) Recently, as well as the UK and other press articles that I have transcribed, I have visited the local library here to see what the provincial press here had to say about the murders. I found a long article about the Kelly murder in the 17 November 1888 edition of the then local paper, The Thanet Advertiser. Thanet, I should explain, is an area in the extreme east of Kent, near Canterbury.
One passage in this account struck me as I don;t remember seeing it reported before. Mrs Carthy, Kelly's ex-landlady, is quoted as saying that shortly before she was murdered, Kelly turned up on Mrs Carthy's doorstep at 2 a.m. with an unknown man and asked to stay the night there.
The passage reads:
"Mrs. Carthy states that the deceased when she left her place went to live with a man in the building trade, and who she (Mrs. Carthy) believed would have married her. She, however, was awakened by Kelly some short time ago at two o'clock in the morning, when she was with a strange man, and asked for a bed for the night. On that occasion Mrs. Carthy asked the deceased if she ws not living with the man who took her from the neighbourhood. She replied in the negative, and explained her position. From this time she was never seen in the neighbourhood."
Of course, it would be intriguing to know how long before the murder this nocturnal visit occurred and, above all, who this unknown man was.
I'm attaching a copy of the section below.
All the best
Chris
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1139
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 7:31 am: | |
I thought the part of the article leading up to the story above might be of interest as well:
Thanet Advertiser - 17 November 1888
The antecedents of the victim have been variously stated, but as far as can be ascertained from statements made by persons with whom she lodged, and companions in whose company she usually spent the evenings when residing in the locality in which she was murdered, there is little doubt that she came to London from Cardiff some five or six years ago, leaving in that town those friends whom she has afterwards described as being "well to do people." She is stated to have been an excellent scholar and an artist of no mean degree. It would appear that on her arrival in London she made the acquaintance of a French woman residing in the neighbourhood of Knightsbridge, who, she informed her friends, led her to pursue the degraded life which has now culminated in her untimely end. She made no secret of the fact that while she was with the woman she drove about in a carriage and made several journeys to the French capital and in fact led a life which is described as that "of a lady." By some means, however, she suddenly drifted into the East End. Here fortune failed her , and a career which stands out in bold and sad contarst to her earlier experience was commenced. Her experience of the East End appears to have begun with a woman who resided in one of the thoroughfares off Ratcliff Highway, now known as St. George's street. This person appears to have received Kelly direct from her West End home, for she had not been very long with her when, it is stated, both women went to the French "lady's" residence and demanded her box which contained numerous dresses of a costly description. Kelly at last indulged in intoxicants, it is stated, to an extent which made her an unwelcome friend. From St. George's street she went to lodge with Mrs. Carthy at Breezer's Hill, Pennington street. This place she left about eighteen months or two years ago, and from that time seems to have left Ratcliff altogether, and taken up quarters in Dorset street. No one appears to have known anything definitely about her after she arrived at Commercial street.
The unfortunate victim is described as being a woman about 25 years of age, 5ft 7in in height, rather stout, with blue eyes, fair complexion, and a very good head of hair. She had two false teeth in her upper jaw. |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 117
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 9:19 am: | |
Very interesting find, yet again Chris... you are the man!
Chris 
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 243
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 9:51 am: | |
Hi Chris S
Great stuff as always. If the article is true,it would lend weight to comments made by Maurice Lewis, in that he knew Mary For about five years, even though it is generally excepted that she was only in London for about four years.
All the best
Rob
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1143
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 10:06 am: | |
Hi Chris
Glad you found it of interest. I found the alleged visit of Kelly to Mrs Carthy intriguing as it raises a number of points:
Mrs Carthy has always been a rather shadowy figure and this is, as far as I can remember, the first account I have seen directly atributed to her
The area where Mrs carthy lived was quite some way from Dorset Street and so it makes me wonder what Kelly was doing at that time of the morning so far removed from her normal area and why she would choose to go to her former residence
If Kelly assumed that Mrs carthy would give her and an unknown man a bed for the night, it makes one wonder what part Mrs carthy took in Kelly's street life when she lived there
Of course the crucial question is who was the man with Kelly on this night time visit? As this incident occurred only a short time before the murder, kelly by that time would have been living with Barnett in Miller's Court so it was obviously not him as they had their own accommodation.
Mrs Carthy's mention of the man in the building trade (almost certainly Joseph Fleming) and her comments about him suggest that she may have known Fleming, at least by sight, so it may not have been him. However, various accounts suggest that Kelly carried on seeing Fleming after she was living with Barnett and as Mrs carthy's home was in the same area as where Fleming lived, perhaps her confidence that this man would have married Mary was based on kelly's own telling of events and Mrs carthy had never actually met him.
Although Barnett denied that Mary had been "on the streets" during the time she knew him, this may have been a casual client - if she was back on the streets that might explain why she was working far afield, to prevent Joe Barnett getting to know of her activities.
All the best
Chris |
Jason Scott Mullins
Inspector
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 192
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 2:16 pm: | |
I concur Chris. Great work btw.
I wonder if this falls in line with evidence and how it might reflect time of death/series of events leading up to...
Hmmmmmmm
crix0r |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 661
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 3:17 pm: | |
Ace finds these Chris!I wonder though if Mary simply tried to get a bed for Joe and herself
during one of the several occasions when they had to move on.
Best Natalie. |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 120
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 4:02 pm: | |
Why would they ask for lodging if they had 13 Miller's Court to go home to? Thats my question.
(Message edited by pl4tinum on April 14, 2004)
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2352
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
Hi all
Could this have anything to do with an attempt to dodge Mary's father, who according to one story came looking for her?
Re the "several journeys to the French capital" : this would suggest that Kelly was in France a bit longer than the fortnight Joe estimated at the inquest.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 793
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 4:05 am: | |
Hi,
There appears to have been a lot going on in Kellys life, leading up to her death.
a] Letters from her family c/o McCarthy .
b]conformation from Mrs Hewitt, about the mysterious man named Lawrence.
c]a visit to Breezers hill, with a strange man.
d]Sighting by Bowyer of a strange looking man on the wednesday talking to Mary.
d] she appeared to have recent connection to a young boy.
All these occurances happened shortly before her death?.
Richard. |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 134
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 3:03 pm: | |
Excellent find by Chris.
I've always been of the opinion that Hutchinson's description of the man with Kelly on the night she died was too far-fetched to be true. But if his description was correct, he could also be described as a strange man as in the Mrs Carthy piece.
Richard, in what newspaper was the article about Mrs Hewitt and Lawrence? And is the article on Casebook?
|
Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 3:24 pm: | |
Hi Neal
The Star, 9 Nov. 1888, page 3 included the following:
A woman named Mrs. Hewitt, living at 25, Dorset-street, supplied our reporter with some information. She said she was up till twelve o’clock last night. She heard nothing. Her husband was up at four o’clock each morning, and he heard nothing of a disturbing character. At eleven o’clock this morning she had occasion to look out of the window which affords a view of the court; but she could see nothing. At about half-past eleven she heard the shouts of a mob, and she then discovered that a horrible murder - it makes me shiver to think of it, she said - had been committed. She also stated that a man - a drover - called on her some time ago. He asked her if a summons came in
THE NAME OF LAWRENCE
to accept it. This man Lawrence, she says, she believes lived with the dead woman. He was off and on in London, sometimes being absent for five or six weeks.
Stephen is preparing to put this and other 1888 Star reports on the Casebook.
Best Wishes
alex
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Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 668
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 5:22 pm: | |
Hi Chris.
Wonderful stuff here....food for thought as they say...
I agree with Richard here on the 'letters' delivered to Mary via Mc Carthy from 'Ireland'??..lots of odd thoughts attatched to them..
Bowyers 'strange man' needs a bit of looking into I think...Wednesday???...
And lets face it the mysterious "child" may have some sort of wierd credence I guess ...unwanted child of some description...."Take this kid Mary and we'll cover for you".... sort of thing springs to mind perhaps some 'relative' of Mrs Carthy.....mind you seems a bit desparate if the child was just an average East End poor thing.....but if it had been of Bluer blood..........oooooooooh God dont go there!
Lawrence is of course a serious mystery....shame..
Got us all going again tho hasn't it
Cheers
Suzi |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 6:32 pm: | |
The Lawrence articel is interesting.
There was indeed a Mrs Hewitt still living at 25 Dorset in 1891. The household was as follows:
25 Dorset Street, Spitalfields
Head:
Thomas Hewitt aged 70 born Witham, Essex - Horse Keeper
Wife:
Caroline Hewitt aged 52 born Colchester
Grandchild:
Florence Shaw aged 7 born Blackfriars
Boarder:
Arthur Blythe aged 53 born Norwich - Messenger
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1154
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 6:43 pm: | |
Just had a quick look to see if anyone listed as a drover named Lawrence was listed in Spitalfields. In fact there was only one male Lawrence in Spitalfields at the time of the census. He was staying at the Crispin Street Refuge where he was listed as follows:
William Lawrence aged 44 born Reading - Groom
the description in the article is as a "drover" - I don't think is compatible with being a groom as I believe a drover worked specifically with cattle. In fact the statement in the article that "He was off and on in London, sometimes being absent for five or six weeks" strongly suggests he may have been a drover on one of the cattle boats that featured so strongly in Harding's complex Portuguese theory.
Chris
|
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 135
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 3:36 pm: | |
Thanks Alex, a very interesting piece.
I wonder if Lawrence is named in the Summons records of the Thames Police Court at the Greater London Archives?
Chris, is that the same Crispin Street Refuge with alleged connections to MJK? |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 799
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
Hi,
I can smell another suspect arriving.
I believe Mrs Hewitts admissions, she confidently stated that the man who asked her to take in a summoms, by the name of Lawrence was the man that used to live with the deseased, as he asked her , and she lived at number 25, it is clear to me that he knew her through kelly, and a mistake by Mrs Hewitt, who lived just a few feet from Mary Jane, is unlikely.
As I have stated many times there is a lot of details about kellys past life, that simply have not been analyzed before , and I am delighted that these points are cropping up, even tho , they feature in leannes and yours truelys book.
Richard. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1157
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 4:07 pm: | |
Hi Neal
Yes it is the same refuge as features in MJK story
Chris |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 669
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 5:49 pm: | |
Right you lot!!!
Nice to have someone else to go for!!!
Is it without a shadow of a doubt thatMary,Hutch,Lawrence,Mc Carthy,Mrs Carthy,and of course the ubiqitous Mrs Hewitt knew eachother!!!!? Come on chaps these characters lived in and out and probably on eachothers doorsteps!(A doorstep would be a luxury though I feel!)!!Think it unlikely .....they didnt know of/or had heard of eachother .I still think at the risk of being right or wrong!!that locals know and hold the truth....I know that sounds trite but cant help but think that people living closely together,observing eacothers lives...what other option did they have! would,could or should have noticed something!!!!
Praps thats where Hutch fits in.....as the local observer!!!and also Mr Invisibilty....cos he was always there aka not seen or remembered
Cheers Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2358
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 6:03 pm: | |
Hi all
If we suppose for the moment that the story about the visit to France is true, then I feel that for Kelly to have amassed enough money to buy costly dresses, she must have worked in France for longer than a fortnight.
Also, if she went to demand back these dresses accompanied by only one woman as moral, not physical, support, then it suggests she wasn't frightened of anything too serious as far as the French lady was concerned.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1158
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 8:02 am: | |
Hi Robert
Interesting points. However,
1) If the point Kelly made about the French woman leading her into a "degraded life" is true (though elsewhere she blames her cousin in Cardiff for this dubious honour!) then I think it highly likely the expensive dresses were bought for her by her gentlemen friends (i.e. clients)whom she accompanied to Paris
2) The reason she took Mrs Buki with her to Knightsbridge to retrieve her dresses, however, bearing in mind the weight and volume of Victorian dresses it may have been for purely practical reasons. She needed someone to help carry them and as this type of clothing would hardly fit in with her east End lifestyle I would think she almost certainly intended to sell them. If her record of paying rent with McCarthy was typical it is even possible she had fallen behind with her rent with Mrs Buki and the landlady inistsed on accompanying her to make sure she got her cut!
Suzi- the cast of characters you mention all have Kelly as the lynchpin. All we can say with certainly (except in the case of Lawrence whose involvement is only based at this stage on hearsay) is that they all knew Kelly. The only exception is that I think it pretty certain that McCarthy and Hewitt knew each other as they were next door neighbours.
All the best
Chris |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 672
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 12:25 pm: | |
Chris
Exactly!!.. Kelly is the lynchpin!! I it wasn't for that Kelly woman etc etc Ooh dear that brings in the Crispin St Refuge again!!!
Robert- I agree about the dresses in one way but think that they may have been 'presents' from 'admirers/aka clients' Mrs Buki was obviously a 'woman of some importance'......either she was 6' 5" and built like a ......or she was a well respected/connected personage of some kind.....enough to put the willies up the temporary owner of the dresses so that they put up no resistance.
Incidently what happened to the posh frocks???...Dont need to be a genius to work that out I think,...Praps Mrs B got one for her trouble!or more....
Just rambling Sat afternoon thoughts!
Cheers
Suzi
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Edgar Hadley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 2:08 pm: | |
Hi Richard,
Mrs Hewitt,mysterious man Lawrence?
Could you elaborate please?
Best regards,
Edgar
|
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 680
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 4:57 pm: | |
Edgar
Hi...Read back on this thread....failing that try another!!! Good Luck
Suzi |
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