| Author |
Message |
    
Edgar Hadley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:37 am: |       |
Hi all,
I have just been reading George Bagster Philips' deposition for the Mary kelly inquest
and have discovered something very odd.
Frankly I am supprised I haven't noticed it before.
Philips seems to describe the room as if he were looking at a mirror image of it.
He describes the bedside table laden with flesh as being to the left-hand side of the bed.
He also suggests the Kelly was moved subsequent to her fatal injury as there was a large quantity
of blood at the top right hand corner of the sheet
closest to the partition.
Ok I suppose the simple explanation is that he is taking his perspective as if lying on the bed himself.
However this strikes me as equally odd especially if one is using the term "top right-hand corner".
To me,the top right hand corner of the bed is most definitely the one nearest the door.
Given that what Philips' visual point of view seems to be at total odds with all the photographs and plans of Millers court,I will have to go with my simple explanation.
It still seems odd though.
Best regards,
Edgar
|
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 517
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 5:11 am: | |
Edgar,
As a former actor and now a director, in the theatre we use a standard method of telling right from left because obviously what is to the right from the point of view of the director is on the left from the point of view of the actor. Thus we refer to "stage right" and "stage left", such that we always take the point of view of the actor, thus the point of view if you are standing on the stage looking towards the audience.
Phillips being a police surgeon I am just wondering if they used a similar standard method of deciding a point of view for describing a murder scene, and if so then it would seem that from the point of view of the victim would be the logical one. |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 247
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 11:17 am: | |
Hi, Alan
I think you're right about the police using Kelly's point of view as reference. This can be seen more clearly in Dr. Bond's report on pg. 383 of Ultimate Companion:
"the body inclined to the left side of the bed."
"The head was turned on the left cheek"
". . .the left arm. . .flexed at a right angle & lying across the abdomen. . ."
". . .the wall by the right side of the bed & in a line with the neck was marked by blood. . ."
It's reasonable to me that the victim's point of view would be used, since the victim is in a fixed position.
Best,
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2219
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:22 pm: | |
Hi Dave
It isn't just victims or forensics. One would hope that doctors would always have a clearly understood method of indicating which side of a person is meant. Even so, there have been mix-ups concerning amputations etc.
At which point the patients become the victims.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 598
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 4:14 pm: | |
Hi Edgar et al.
Have just re read this post Edgar....Imagine you'd walked into the door of Millers Ct and looked right to behold Mary ....her head was facing you and the 'laden' table was between you and the bed.Imagine yourself as mary on that bed(!) your right shoulder was against the partition.
Phillips was writing as to where the body lay...no mirror images here....her right shoulder is in the right [place and the table is most definately btween the bed and the door!!!
cheers
Suzi
|
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 599
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 4:19 pm: | |
Robert-
Help me out here!!!! I am right (or left!) arent I....otherwise there's something verrrrry wrong with 'the photo' !!!! Hope it wasn't put in the enlarger the wrong way round!!!!!...no chance!!!!!!Lets face it chaps....Phillips was there!!!! Cheers Suzi
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2223
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 5:17 pm: | |
Hi Suzi
I don't see anything wrong with Phillips's statement.
In the same way, when the doctors said that Kate's left kidney was removed, I take it that this means HER left kidney (i.e. to the left of someone standing behind her, to the right of someone standing in front of her). This would also be to the left of someone standing behind her head if she was lying down, and to the right of someone standing by her feet.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 462
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 9:22 am: | |
In medical forensics, "right" and "left" refer to the perspective of the subject. I.e., the "left kidney," "left eye," etc. would refer to the corpse's left. Being a medical man, I assume Philips would apply this rule to the entire scene.
Andy S.
(Message edited by aspallek on March 16, 2004) |
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 269
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 5:12 pm: | |
Is it possible that the famous photo of Kelly we have all become accustomed to was printed backwards? It's unlikely, but certainly not impossible.
Perhaps the makers of From Hell did get the layout of Kelly's room correct?
There isn't anything in the photograph which could tell us for certain that the negative was printed backwards . . . or was that even a possibility back then? I confess I don;t know anything at all about Victorian photography.
-K
|
Dan Norder
Sergeant
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 43
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 6:38 pm: | |
If the photo is backwards then MJK wouldn't be on her left check with her left hand on her abdomen, so that's right out. It looks like all directions listed are based upon her left and right, and then it all falls together.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
