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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 964
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 1:07 am: | 
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Mrs Carthy was the alleged landlady of Kelly some time in the mid 1880's at Breezer's Hill. The address of 157 Bown Common Lane was the address of her sister in law Mrs Elizabeth Phoenix.
First I would urge people to read the dissertation by Paul Daniel at
http://casebook.org/dissertations/dst-mkb.html
In this Paul makes two interesting dicoveries:
The only part of her background that is indisputably backed up by witness statement is that during 1885/6 she was living with a Mrs 'Carthy' in Breezer's Hill. This is still the eighty-metre stretch of street it was then, and leads uphill from Pennington Street to The Highway, which in 1885 was called St George Street, just north of the London Docks North Quay. In 1891 there were still just four houses in this street, and at No 1 lived John and Mary McCarthy. I could hardly credit the coincidence that in 1885 there lived in one of those four houses a Mrs 'Carthy', while just six years later there lived a Mrs McCarthy, and came to the conclusion that the press had misquoted her name in their reports after the murder of Mary Kelly. Carthy is an extremely rare name
(Paul proved that this was NOT the same John McCarthy as was Kelly's landlord at Miller's Court)
and
But my continuing research threw up the curious fact that in 1891, living at 157 Bow Common Lane (Elizabeth Phoenix's 1888 address) there was a certain Eugene McCarthy, 31, a cooper, which makes a possibility of another connection between Elizabeth Phoenix and the house at No 1 Breezer's Hill
I have been able to do some follow up on both these points.
First rgarding 157 Bow Common lane, where Mrs Phoenix lived in 1888.
A-Z: Her sister in law, Elizabeth Phoenix, lived at 157 Bow Common Lane.
At that address in 1891 census were living:
Frederick Howes aged 30 born Southampton- General labourer
Rachel Howes aged 27 born Swansea, S. Wales.
Reginald Howes aged 5 born Rochester, Kent
and
Eugene McCarthy aged 31 born St. Georges, London
Cooper
Hannah McCarthy aged 30 born Whitechapel
Eugene McCarthy is listed in 1881 as son of Catherine McCarthy who ran a lodging house at 97 Wentworth Street.
Catherine McCarthy aged 60 born Ireland - Chandler Shopkeeper
Son:
Eugene McCarthy aged 21 born Wapping - Cooper
Niece:
Hannah Caldon aged 14 born Wapping - Shop Assistant
Grandson:
Timothy Crawley aged 2 born Whitechapel
and 15 lodgers are listed as resident.
The marriage of Eugene and Hannah McCarthy was registered in Mile End in December 1889. Her maiden name was Hannah Russell.
Hannah Russell is listed in 1881 as a domestic servant in a medical household headed by Edmund G C Snell, General Practicioner LSAL. aged 31. The others are in the household are:
Arabella A Snell (wife) aged 26 boen Ceylon
Edmund H Snell (son) aged 3
Heorge C St.J Snell aged 10 months
Henry T Barton (Brother in Law) aged 24 - Medical Student
Alice L Ferne (Servant) aged 21 - Nurse
157 Bow Common Lane in 1881:
James Williams aged 43 born Stepney - Dock Labourer
Caroline Williams aged 48 born Mile End OT
Henry Knighting (Boarder) aged 8 born Mile End OT
Fanny Miller aged 34 born Stepney - Dress maker
Children:
Ada Miller aged 13 born Stepney
Alfred Miller aged 7 born Bermondsey
Rosa Miller aged 4 born Bermondsey
However, the second and more interesting point is the nature of the household run by John and Mary McCarthy at 1 Breezer's Hill.
The full household from the 1891 census is as follows:
1 Breezer's Hill 1891
John McCarthy aged 36 born Whitechapel
Dock labourer
Mary McCarthy aged 29 born Shoreditch
Boarders:
Ellen Forbes - aged 28 born Glasgow, Scotland
Unfortunate (crossed out)
Abey Marah aged 36 born Whitechapel
Unfortunate (crossed out)
Emma Britton aged 29 born Bristol
Unfortunate (crossed out)
Ellen Fallon aged 8 born St George in the East
Visitor:
William Fenely (?) aged 40 born Bristol
Seaman
I am attching copies of the two sheets which the household takes up as I think this is important and certainly strengthens the case that it was at 1 Breezer's Hill that Kelly lived at some time in 1885-86
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on March 07, 2004)
(Message edited by Chris on March 07, 2004) |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 966
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 1:33 am: |
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Re: the above I have since found out that the John McCarthy livinbg at Breezer's Hill in 1891 occurs as a 16 year old in the 1871 census as follows:
Address:
1 Bird cage Alley, Southwark
Head:
Michael McCarthy aged 42 born Ireland
Harness Maker
Wife:
Catherine McCarthy aged 43 born Ireland
Children:
Daniel aged 18 - Wharf labourer
John aged 16 - Wharf labourer
Johanna aged 14 - Domestic servant
Ellen aged 10
All children are listed a sborn in Whitechapel.
I will try to find the marriage details for John and Mary Mccarthy to see if I can find some background info on her
Chris
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Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 394
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 9:51 am: |
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Hi Chris, I"ve just read the above.It just seems too coincidental some of this.Cant wait to see details of marriage certificate.Splendid research!
Best Natalie |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 122
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 12:55 pm: |
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Hi Chris and Natalie,
In my research for my Catherine Eddowes booklet, I searched for the couple of John and Mary McCarthy who lived at Breezers Hill in 1891 and came to the conclusion that they were a couple married in 1884 at Hackney.
The bride was Mary Ann Jane Brooks daughter of Henry. And the groom was John McCarthy son of a tailor of the same name. John had lived much of his life at Cohen's Building's, 42 Royal Mint Street, which was not a long way from Breezers Hill. It was very difficult to pin down information on Mary but I believe she had a sister Elizabeth, which I hope could be Elizabeth Phoenix.
I look forward to reading about more of your finds.
Neal |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 968
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 1:16 pm: |
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I have searched for the McCarthys' marriage details under the following parameters:
1) the marriage took place between 1878, when Mary would have been 16, and 1886, the latest date when Kelly would have lodged with them.
2) the marriage would show a John McCarthy marrying a spouse with the forename Mary
3) Mary would have a place of birth in Shoreditch
4) Mary's date of birth would be 1862 (her age is shown as 29 in 1891)
Only one marriage fulfilled all these criteria and showed that Mary had McCarthy both as a married name and a maiden name!
the details are:
Quarter registered:
December 1881
Place registered: Poplar
Marriage between John Dennis McCarthy and Mary Ann McCarthy
I have traced Mary Ann Mccarthy in the 1881 census, just before her marriage.
Address: 6 Reliance Square, London
Head;
Charles McCarthy aged 46 born Ireland
Scavenger
Wife:
Mary McCarthy aged 45 born Ireland
Milk Dealer
Children:
Mary Ann aged 19 (born 1862) - Waistcoat maker
John aged 18 - carman
Catherine aged 16 - Milk dealer
Charles aged 15 - Messenger
Florence aged 13
Julia aged 3
All the children except the last are listed as botn in Shoreditch. The youngest child, Julia, is listed as born in Finsbury.
I have done extensive searching for this marriage and its details and I am reasonably confident that the Mary Ann McCarthy listed above is the same Mary Mccarthy listed in Breezer's Hill in 1891.
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 969
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 1:35 pm: |
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Neal
I saw the McCarthy/ Brooks marriage you mention but the main thing that persuaded me against was the identification of the Breezer's Hill John McCarthy as the son of Michael McCarthy of Bird Cage Alley (see above).
What persuaded me that this John was the one the one I was looking for was the agreement on age, date of birth, place of birth and occupation.
Chris |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 396
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 2:30 pm: |
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Chris and Neal,This really is such an exciting trail-I do hope it is the McCarthy we are earching for.I think you have made another leap forward Chris.
Hi Neal-I would love to buy your C.Eddowes book.Can you post info on the Eddowes thread on how?
Many thanks to |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 397
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 2:33 pm: |
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An afterthought Chris ur John McCarthy was the great great grandfather of the actress Kay Kendall.Can we trace her too to confirm findings?
Natalie |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 571
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 3:20 pm: |
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Hi everybody!!!
this is really fascinating!!! have spent a fruitless afternoon trying to post my paintings....sorry if this is a bit off thread...but this has cheered me up!!!! Keep going chaps....it's brilliiant!...if anyone can help me out with resizing my pic...email me!!!
Sorry about that but am going dolally here trying to post this painting!!!
Cheers
Suzi
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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 123
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 5:14 pm: |
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Chris,
Is it definite that the John Dennis McCarthy married in Dec 1881 was the same man as the son John of Michael McCarthy of the 1871 census? Does the 1881 census place John Dennis in the East End rather than Southwark?
Just another point slightly off subject, but have you found the John McCarthy (the one who eventually lived at Dorset Street) and his brother Daniel on the 1871 census as that would be an important find. John of course, would give his birthplace as France?
Neal |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 971
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 11:10 am: |
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Hi Neal
Still tracing John McCarthy (son of Michael) in 1881. He was no longer living at home as I have found the family:
Family of John Mccarthy in 1881
1 Masons Buildings, Southwark St. George
Head:
Michael McCarthy aged 52 born Ireland - Harness maker
Widowed
Children:
Johanna McCarthy aged 25 born London - Ironer
Ellen McCarthy aged 21 born London - Ironer
Lodger:
Ellen Gould aged 13 born London - General servant
but he is proving a little more elusive!
Will also look for the other John and Daniel and see what turnes up
All the best
Chris
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 972
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 2:26 pm: |
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Neal
I am continuing the various searches and will let you know any results
In the process of this I have found a decidedly odd 1891 listing for John McCarthy - he appears to be listed twice, with different places of birth, different wives and different children but at the same address!
To explain, the census return for 1881 for 27 Dorset Street is straightforward, namely:
1881:
27 Dorset Street
Head:
John McCarthy aged 30 born France
General Dealer
Wife:
Elizabeth McCarthy born Spitalfields
Children:
John aged 7 born Spitalfields
Margaret aged 5 born Shadwell
Elizabeth aged 2 born Spitalfields
Brother:
Daniel McCarthy aged 19 born Lambeth
Shopman
Unmarried
Boarder:
Henry Buckley aged 24 born Mile End
Shopman
Unmarried
However, when we go to 1891 for the same address we have these persons listed:
27 Dorset Street
Head:
John McCarthy aged 42 born Spitalfields
General shopkeeper
Wife:
Mary McCarthy aged 38 born Spitalfields
Children:
George McCarthy aged 16 born Spitalfields
Head:
Daniel McCarthy aged 27 born Southwark
Grocer
Wife:
Ann McCarthy aged 23 born Southwark
Head:
John McCarthy aged 42 born Dieppe, France
Grocer
Wife:
Elizabeth McCarthy aged 38 born Shoreditch
Children:
Margaret aged 15 born St George's East
Elizabeth aged 12 born St George's East
Ann aged 6 born Spitalfields
Nelly aged 9 months born Spitalfields
Other:
Eliza Alder aged 16 born St. Pancras
Domestic servant
Head:
Henry Kempton aged 30 born Marylebone
Wife:
Amy Kempton aged 23 born Hertfordshire
Son:
John Kempton aged 7 born Spitalfields
We have two John McCarthys aged 42 listed but in all other respects the records differ - different wife, place of birth and offspring. The second John is obviously the one referred to in 1881 as all the details fit. Who this John and Mary McCarthy are I have no idea - obviously not the Breezer's Hill couple as they are listed separately in the same census, and any way the ages are all wrong.
I find it difficult to assign this to just as clerical error - the details of the wife Mary and son George must have come from somewhere!
Any ideas welcome
Chris
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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 125
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 4:37 pm: |
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Chris,
It is very confusing as to who the John and Mary McCarthy were at 27 Dorset Street in 1891. I did come up with a theory that the man was John and Daniel's father because according to Daniel's marriage entry his father's name was John. And knowing how unreliable some of the census entries were, I wondered whether the enumerator had put his age at 42 rather than 62? Mary could be a second marriage.
But the theory is wishful thinking on my part, and I didn't find their son George on the 1881 census, so it is a bit of mystery.
After all, why would this John McCarthy be recorded living at the address above the more famous one? I feel that there could even be a mistake with the name. Maybe John had a twin but the enumerator wrongly recorded his name as John too?
Of course, he could be a cousin called John, but I agree he was a separate Mr McCarthy with a wife Mary and son George?
Best of luck with the search.
Neal |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 400
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 4:47 pm: |
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Hi Chris,saw your post and read with some disbelief but I suppose they could have been cousins.Or even 2nd cousins.Strange at first sight but in those days with larger families than now it seems possible.
Question :which one was Mary"s landlord?
Best Natalie. |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 973
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 5:28 pm: |
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Hi Natalie
I think there is little doubt the French born John McCarthy was Kelly's landlord.
I agree this census data is very puzzling - I am attaching below in case you want to see original entry
All the best
Chris
 |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 403
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 6:06 pm: |
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Thanks for the above Chris.I rather think they were cousins-maybe an extended family of McCarthy"s in Dorset Street and the other Street mentioned was Wentworth Sreet round the corner almost.And the families were in the chandler or grocery business as well as buying up property or renting and subletting property It appears from some census information and other accounts.
Thanks for all this though its fascinating!
Best Natalie |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1035
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:37 am: |
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Neal
I have started the 1871 search for John and Daniel that you mentioned. I have not yet located John but have two possible candidates for Daniel - but I will carry on looking!!
Chris
DANIEL:
Possibles:
1)
3 Green Bank, Farley Street, St Olave, Southwark
Head:
Timothy McCarthy aged 50 born Ireland - Labourer
Wife:
Honora McCarthy aged 48 born Ireland
Children:
Margaret aged 14
Ellen aged 10
Daniel aged 8
All children born in Southwark
They shared the house with the following family:
Head:
David Kelly aged 45 born Ireland - Labourer
Wife:
Mary Kelly aged 44 born Ireland
Children:
Mary aged 12
David aged 10
Patrick aged 4
All children born in Southwark
2)
11 Red Crop Court, St Saviour, Southwark
Head:
Timothy McCarthy aged 29 born Ireland - Carman
Wife:
Mary McCarthy aged 30 born Ireland
Children:
Daniel aged 8
Margaret aged 5
Timothy aged 4
All children born in Southwark, Surrey
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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 126
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 2:56 pm: |
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Chris,
I probably should have added that on Daniel's marriage cetificate 20 years later his father was named as John McCarthy, a lodging house proprietor? I suppose it is possible he could have been Timothy John McCarthy but was better known as John?
Southwark or Lambeth is good area for where Daniel was born as the census for 81 and 91 reveals. Although I wasn't able to track down his birth certificate after about five certificate orders?
Maybe John and Daniel never knew their father, but we can only work on the evidence we have. I think it's certain they were in London somewhere in 1871. I don't believe there were any other brothers mentioned when John died in the 1920's, but some of the names recorded as attending the funeral could have been married sisters?
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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 127
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 7:10 am: |
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Chris,
I've just checked on the BMD site about the marriage of John Dennis McCarthy and Mary Ann McCarthy and found that two more names have the same reference.
"Ada Emily Fensome", and "George Hall Story" have the same reference of "DEC 1881 POPLAR 1c 1315" as the McCarthy pair, therefore raising the possibility that both McCarthy's married the other people?
Equally there is a chance that the McCarthy's did marry one another but I haven't been able to solve it one way or another.
Did you actually find the certificate entry to prove the McCarthy's married one another? |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1041
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 11:44 am: |
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Neal
I did not get the actual certificate but by the application of a little devious logic and checking both the 1881 and 1891 census returns I am confident the McCarthys married each other.
I checked the 1881 census (which would predate the last quarter marriage) and there was was no case of an Ada Emily Fensome of suitable age to be married at the end of 1881. However there were instances of an Emily Fensome and my census searches have taught me the often frustraing lesson that it was not at all unusual for a person to use a middle name in everyday life but to revert to their given name on a marriage certificate.
I checked the 1891 census and there is no instance of a John and Ada McCarthy at that time. However there is one instance in London of a George and Emily Story living at 23 Selby Street, Bethnal Green. As a double check there is no instance in 1891 census of a Mary Ann Story in the listing.
Based on the above I think the balance of probability is that in Dec 1881 that the two McCarthys married each other and George Storty married Ada Emily Fensome (commonly known as Emily)
Hope this helps
Chris |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 128
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 2:44 pm: |
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Chris,
Hopefully, it has cleared the problem up. There is a couple on the 1901 census, George and Emily Story, living at Mile End New Town. Their ages were 62 and 61, which would make them 42 and 41 in 1881. Perhaps it was a second marriage for them?
Neal
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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 129
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 5:53 pm: |
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Chris,
Just to add to my previous post the George and Emily Story at 23 Selby Street, Bethnal Green, in 1891, look vitually certain not to be the one's from the 1881 marriage entry. The entry in 1891 reveals Alfred Lindsey stepson living with the couple and others by that name, so it seems likely that this couple only married in Dec 1895 at Stepney where there was a marriage between a George Story and Emily Lindsey.
This George Story I believe, was also recorded on the 1881 census as married? A first one most likely?
It leaves us with a dilemma as to whether John Dennis McCarthy actually married Mary McCarthy or Ada Emily Fensome but hopefully it can be resolved?
Also, the Timothy and Honora McCarthy are not related to the McCarthy's of Dorset Street, because their son Daniel still lives with them in 1881
(Message edited by Neal on March 11, 2004) |
David Henry Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
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CAN ANYBODY HELP?
Running out of sources to find the location of Reliance Square as it was in the 19th Century. It was there my gggrandfather lived in 1842 - 4 Reliance Square with his future bride at #5
As the square does not exist in today's London I am hoping a reader of this site might be able to let me know the location of the square in old London
Thankyou for any help you can give me
David Smith |
