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Michael Raney
Sergeant
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 24
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 2:40 pm: |       |
Richard,
I agree with Sarah. I have heard a lot about the "Number 39" ideology, but I do not see where the 39 is for Chapman or with Mary Kelly. Surely Mary's address is merely coincidence. Please explain further. Thanks!
Mikey |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 604
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 3:15 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
I will do my best.
First of all when Barnett and Kelly moved into number 13 ,millers court, there was no murders intended.
But as events happened, and Mary started back on prostitution, she prostituted, whilst in that accomodation.
With regard to the 39 theory, a simple break down.
Martha Tabram, stabbed a total of 39 times, also age 39, [ mayby age not relevant?]
Mary nichols killed on the 31st august
Annie chapman killed on the 8th sept - the two dates add to 39.
Also Nichols was killed on the 31st of the 8th month=39
Both Stride and eddowes were killed on the 30th day of the 9th month =39
Eddowes and Stride were both killed on the 30th, and Mary kelly on the 9th =39
Barnett moved in with kelly on the 9th day of april 1887,
He left her on the 30th day of october 88 9+30 =39
He left her on the 30th, she was killed on the 9th =39
I hope that simplfies that pattern.
also If one adds up the amount of letters in Tabram, Nichols, chapman, long liz [ the name she was commonly known as] Eddowes and kelly, one gets a total of 39.
Now I am not suggesting that he killed these women on purpose, but it is a possibility.
It is a fact, that the number 39 creaps into this case, rather a lot of times, my own personal opinion , is that it could derive from the 39th psalm, which would fit my suspects feelings perfectly.
Briefly interpretated, it says.
I Swore I would hold my tonque, even tho evil was before me, I Tried hard, but the fire was raging inside me, I Then spake my tonque, may god have mercy , for I am weak.
I can see this implying To Barnett, he had a dislike of prostitution, when he met Kelly, she admitted to leading at one time, that way of life, but told him , only circumstances of her losing her husband in a accident, forced her to.
He put his dislike of immoral life on hold, he proberly felt a sympathy for prostitutes, that is, until his mary resumed her old ways, and then his anger exploded.
my personal feelings are , he saw himself as the poor creature in psalm 39, and when he decided to try and alter Kellys ways, by peaceful means , to no avail , he started on his murderous rampage, and murdered his victims on relevant dates , with connections to the number 39.
a lot of readers may feel this theory belongs in a Hollywood B Movie, but it would explain a reason for these dates being selected.
Richard. |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 516
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 9:17 am: | |
Richard,
Thanks. The only one I'm confused at now is:-
He left her on the 30th day of october 88 9+30 =39
Surely October is the 10th month, so I'm just curious as to where the 9 comes from. Are you sure you haven't confused this line with the next line which says:-
He left her on the 30th, she was killed on the 9th =39
This line I can understand but I still am confused by the first one I mentioned in this post.
Sarah |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 121
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 11:23 am: | |
Richard,
You are on record as believing Barnett performed the Ripper murders in an attempt to scare the bejabbers out of Kelly and yet you also advance the theory that the murders were committed to adhere to a strange numerical sequence. I will grant that the two theories are not completely mutually exclusive, but they are darn close to that.
If Barnett wants to frighten Kelly into chastity by butchering prostitutes, one would think he would want to do so at every reasonable opportunity. But no, he also must regulate his attacks so they conform to a numerical pattern, albeit one that admits a wide range of variables.
One theory or the other demands a great leap of faith, but to combine both of them seems too much, doesn't it?
Don. |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 524
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 12:17 pm: | |
I personally think my name theory is slightly better than the 39 theory, but only because it's easier to kill people with the names you want that trying to add stuff up to 39.
My name theory goes as follows:-
I noticed a common name or names with the victims, now whether this is coincidence or something more, who knows, but I found it interesting anyway.
If we discount Stride for a moment, which believe me I don't like to do, then who do we have left?
There's:-
Mary Ann Nichols
Annie Chapman (Still an Ann of somesorts)
Catherine Eddowes (called herself Mary Ann Kelly on occasions)
Mary Jane Jelly (Also apparently called herself Mary Ann Kelly sometimes)
Sarah |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 608
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 2:47 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
The one you are stuck on is .
Barnett and kelly decided to move in together on the 9th[ forget the month]
He walked out on the 30th.
total =39.
Intresting that the date [ the 9th] the date he started his relationship, was also the day of the month she was killed.
Richard. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 609
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 2:58 pm: | |
Hi Don,
I cannot see any reason , for a person not performing a series of murders, based on a numerical pattern, especially if , in the murderers mind, he saw a relevance to it.
Whats wrong with the theory, that he chose specific dates, to carry out these murders.
He would have simply ventured out in the early hours of the relevant days , and stalked a victim.
I do appreciate , there are questions to be asked , but I am simply giving my thoughts , on a extremely complex series of murders.
Regards Richard. |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 122
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 5:01 pm: | |
Sarah,
Stop for a moment and consider your "names theory." To begin with, you throw out Liz Stride completely. That is perfectly fine so long as you are a consistent believer in only four (Nicholls, Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly) victims. If, however, you are not then the theory is immediately done.
Then, you cook the books a bit more by saying either Mary or Ann was the name Jack was interested in. Then, you continue to overcook the theory by permitting the use an occasional alias, as in the case of Eddowes.
Finally, the two names were among the most popular for women at the time, so the coincidence becomes not that amazing after all. You are right about one thing, though, it does beat the "39" theory -- but then that notion is so full of allowable variables as to vie with anagram clues for implausibility.
Don. |
Birgitte Breemerkamp
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 9:54 am: | |
Personally I believe, although I must admit it's not really founded on anything but gut feeling (oh what a choice of words LOL) - that JtR killed for the cutting.
I believe he was trying to show the world how good a surgeon he was (which made me wonder whether JtR actually was a surgeon or medical student or had at least a profession in the medical field). Let's not forget that what JtR did in the dark was something that most medical trained people could do with difficulty in broad (day)light.
Futhermore, I believe that his "organ collection" was a possible goal. I wonder what ever happened to the organs he took with him. They must've been put in jars somewhere and that's where my guess at JtR's profession comes in: in a laboratory one would expect to see organs preserved in jars at that time. Or am I completely on the wrong track here? (I must admit I don't know too much about Victorian London...yet)
Anyway, I see the cutting (where his self-chosen nickname refers to) and organ collecting as the principle drives for the murders.
I look forward to reading how others view this.
Birgitte |
Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:48 pm: | |
Richard wrote:
"The 39th psalm, if read , could indicate a man of Barnetts personallity."
So the people who wrote the Bible already knew who Jack the Ripper was and put it into some code that only makes sense to you?
Sweeeeeeeet.
When you crowning yourself Pope of the Church of Insane Ripper Theories? |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 618
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 2:26 pm: | |
Hi Dan,
I do not consider, it a insane Ripper Theory,also why is it not possible that Barnett, tried to hold his tonque regarding prostitution, when it is a fact he disliked his Mary practising it. and when she returned to that way of life, he to quote the psalm , spoke his tonque. with dire consequences.
What annoys me is ,people are so ready to ,condemm other people, for what they consider, unlikely events, but do nothing to put forward any positive alternatives.
The facts are there Dan , but one has to use ones brain, to progress.
Richard. |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 167
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 2:52 pm: | |
Hi Birgitte,
For some (serial) killers it’s the inflicting of pain, for others it’s the dominating, again others get their kicks raping or sodomizing and then murdering their victims or the other way around and for people like Jack the Ripper it’s the mutilating after a quick kill. Power and control are also important to such killers. I believe the body parts were taken as souvenirs, which enabled Jack to relive his murders. He might also have taken them to eat them, because this might have given him an extra feeling of power and control over his victims. I'm afraid it’s not uncommon for serial killers to do such things. He might also have taken the organs as trophies.
You said: “I believe he was trying to show the world how good a surgeon he was (which made me wonder whether JtR actually was a surgeon or medical student or had at least a profession in the medical field). Let's not forget that what JtR did in the dark was something that most medical trained people could do with difficulty in broad (day)light.”
How would this view change if you think about the possibility that the Ripper’s purpose wasn’t to obtain specific organs, but that his main purpose was to mutilate, perhaps in some exploring way, and along the way took whatever organs that felt good to him at that particular moment? If you look at it that way, which I do, Jack the Ripper didn’t need to have a medical background, as a matter of fact, he didn’t even need to have any real anatomical knowledge.
As to the Ripper’s profession, since I think he was a local man, I think he was a labourer of some sort, he probably had a job that mainly involved working with his hands instead of his head. It’s likely that he was interested in knives and in working with them, so perhaps he worked in one of the many slaughterhouses in the East End.
I must add that I am no expert on all of these things, I’ve just formed my opinion reading a lot and watching a lot of TV programmes.
Groetjes,
Frank 
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 9:37 pm: | |
Frank,
That was probably one of the best posts (from my point of view) that I have ever read from you. I agree completely with everything you say here.
Hi Birgitte,
Your thoughts here are naturally not impossible and since we can't really determine what his main forces or motivations were, we are left to speculations here. Your thoughts on the matter are indeed worth considering, although I go along with Frank on the notion that the Ripper might have done it simply for the mutilations themselves. These types of killings are in general lacking a clear motive and usually have their origins in rage, mental delusions or sexual fantasies.
However, that doesen't rule out the possibility that he needed the organs to relive his actions or for some other deranged purpose -- after all, he did take some of them with him. But if that was his main goal, is another question. My bet is that the mutilations -- the signature -- were the emotional target for his operations. I believe, as Frank suggests, that he he took the organs he found interesting along the way. Not all items he carried away were sexually connected, like uteruses; he also took a bit of Eddowes' kidney and if we include Kelly, he took the heart. So that shows in my view that there is no real consistency as far as the removed organs are concerned.
I also go along with Frank's thoughts regarding the Ripper's occupation here. If he had one, I believe it was something that involved working with his hands and also with something that didn't require too much interaction with other people. He didn't have to be a skilled surgeon for doing these acts, but he could possibly have had some rough anatomical knowledge and practice in how to work with a knife, which you could get in several sorts of occupations besides being a doctor.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 528
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 4:59 am: | |
Don,
I personally do think Liz was killed by Jack so the name's theory doesn't really ring true in my head, I just wanted to point out this coincidence. I don't really know why I called it a theory, I suppose it could have been the way the killer worked and maybe Liz was a victim of his but he hdn't meant to kill her possibly and that's why he got annoyed and went off to find Kate. I don't know though. It's not very likely. Maybe, as discussed on another thread he really did have Compulsive Obsessive Disorder and had a thing about Mary Ann's. Who knows!!
Anyway, this is just a rambling of thoughts now.
Sarah |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 676
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 7:50 am: | |
Hi Sarah,
Well, you certainly put your finger on it there, as Jack did his knife.
Mary is rhyming slang for fanny (the English meaning, not the American).
Mary Ann = fan.
I’d say Jack did have a thing about mary anns.
But I don’t think he cared less what his victims called themselves.
Love,
Caz
|
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 168
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 12:44 pm: | |
'Tak' a lot for the very fine compliment, Glenn! (I have to write at least 25 words that are at least two letters long)
Groetjes,
Frank |
Michael Raney
Sergeant
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 45
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 1:32 pm: | |
It's interesting, but I have often wondered about the names and even some of the "non-canonical victims" had names or used alias's of different variations of the name Mary.
Mikey  |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 6:47 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
This This is the first time I have had a chance to respond to one of your post. I would like to wish you a belated happy birthday. I hope you had a good time.
There is an interesting name game regarding Dr.T that you may not have noticed. Dr.T had six sisters there names were, Mary,Jane,Ann,Elizabeth,Alice and Margaret. The names of the chronical five were, Mary Ann " Polly" Nicholes,Annie Chapman,Elizabeth Stride,Catherine Eddowes who often went by the name Mary Ann Kelly and Mary Jane Kelly. Some people believe that Alice Mackenzie was a ripper victim.
Take care. CB } |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 551
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2004 - 4:29 am: | |
Hi CB,
Thanks for the belated birthday wish. I had a good time.
That's quite a striking coincidence. Although I suppose people could say that those names were very common. even so, it's a strange coincidence that all the victims names are in there somewhere. There wasn't a Margaret who was killed around the same time was there by any chance? Maybe she was his favourite sister!!
Sarah |
Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2004 - 11:06 pm: | |
Richard wrote:
"What annoys me is ,people are so ready to ,condemm other people, for what they consider, unlikely events, but do nothing to put forward any positive alternatives."
I have already put forth plenty of positive alternatives, which you unfortunately choose to ignore time and time again.
Frank's post is 100% dead on. This is a series of crimes to be solved, using standard criminology, not numerology.
"The facts are there Dan , but one has to use ones brain, to progress."
It isn't progress when you stick pins in a doll representing your suspect instead of coming up with solid reasons for why the person should be called a suspect in the first place.
Of course the problem is that people practicing voodoo fool themselves into thinking they are using their brains. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 637
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 2:55 pm: | |
Hi Dan,
You want solid reasons.
He was her ex boyfriend.[ As most murders tend to be domestic]
She refused to obey his requests and, stop her prostitution.
There is a possibility that she ridiculed him, she certainly made it clear , that she could not bear the man to an associate, when she was alive.
There is strong evidence that he may have had a grudge against Jews.
There is circumstancial evidence, of a possible gravespitting.
He acted extremely agitated at the inquest.
There is a report that He collected newspaper cuttings , dating back to Tabram, through to Mckenzie.[ only the killer would have known that Tabram, was to be the start of a series].
According to a relation, he once remarked 'He often felt sorry for kellys killer, for he could never come forward , for fear of being topped'
The coincedence, with the dates of these murders, have direct connection to him,
The above list, I consider ample ammunition,to at the very least consider him a prime suspect.
Regards Richard.
|
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 253
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 4:16 pm: | |
1. When a prostitute is the victim of a serial murderer, the domestic issue becomes moot. So unless claiming that Barnett killed only MJK, this argument is weak. But then there goes the whole warning to MJK.
2. Yeah and every man in the world viciously slaughters their girlfriend when they refuse to obey them. I'm going to get it any minute now.
3. Same as above. Then what was his motivation for killing everyone else? Oh yeah right..to scare her.
4. What? How is this evidence of him being Jack?
5. Well, if MJK ridiculed him and disobeyed him, maybe he would have spit on her grave. Doesn't mean he killed her though. I can think of several people whose grave I might spit on, and yet I doubt I will ever have the joy of killing them myself.
6. And if he had been calm and composed this would be viewed as evidence of his hatred for her and proof of his killing her.
7. What is the source of the report? And also, I know about several thousand people who have collected every newsclipping about JBR and other crimes. Mean they murdered em?
8. So?
9. The coincidence with Barnett is..uh..shaky and somewhat ludicrous also. What? did he preplan leaving her on October 9 just so he could have a numeric coincidence with a victims stabbing? That's farfetched to say the least. And you really can't tie 30 (the day he left) to the 9th when she was killed because you've already used the day he left in your numerical coincidences. If he is adding month and day together to get 39 he should have killed her on the 27 or Nov 28.
(Message edited by ally on January 29, 2004) |
Michael Raney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 51
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 7:25 pm: | |
Ally,
I am rolling on the floor laughing because if any woman were going to be killed for disobeying her man, I'm sure it would be you. I cannot imagine you "obeying" anyone, just for the sake of obeying. I'm sure your relationship works because both of you want it to.
Back on topic. I believe if Barnett killed anyone it was only Mary. That said, I don't think he killed anyone and I count Mary as a Ripper victim.
Mikey |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 640
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 3:31 am: | |
Hi,
It surely is a fact, in the case of Kelly, as she was killed in property, that any person living with her, or persons living in that property would be the first questioned.
I was just stating the obvious, that as Barnett left the relationship, ten days before, after a disagreement, and the person he left , was found cut to peices on her bed,he had to be a police suspect, which indeed he was, however they found no evidence against him.
But at the time , they were not so informed, as researchers today.
Regarding the infamous thirty nine theory, I am making reference to .
a]The day he moved in with her
b[ The day he left her
C] The day she died.
ie, 9+30+9 note the 30 with the 9 either side =39.
Also as she lived at 26 Dorset street , in a room numbered 13, 26 + 13 =39 .
if she was killed in a pattern, that would be a appropiate place to die.
Anyway it has been stated that the number 13 + 3 are important in black magic circles.
One being the favourite number , the other the most protective, multiplied together 13x3=39.
A black magician?.
Richard. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1108
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 4:11 am: | |
G'day Rich,
I think your 39 thing should go in our book, as a seperate chapter at the end maybe, as you're fascinated by it and some people might be equally fascinated in it, but it's a bit much to believe the Ripper actually planned it that way.
'Numerology' has been around for centuries, and is viewed alongside 'astrology'. You either believe it or you don't! Read up about it.
39 breaks down to 3+9 = 12,
12 breaks down to 1+2 = 3
Jack the Ripper might have been a type 3 person.
I am definately a type 7 person!
LEANNE |
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