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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 414
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 10:53 am: |       |
Sarah, Frank,
Sarah,
There seems to be more than just tidiness involved.
It seems to be an order....incidently, why is it called disorder ?
As Peter mentions, it is a ritual. He places the items. He takes care of them. They are not thrown aside. Very similar to the Vikings/Pharaohs burials. Their goods or worldly items are laid out inorder to help them in the afterlife.
Frank,
Mylett is a possible for me. This is due to the positioning of the body and the neatly folded scarf....but thats just my view.
Monty
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1376
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 10:57 am: | |
Hi Sarah
If Jack suffered from MPD I think there must have been something wrong with his other personalities too, as he would have repeatedly discovered blood on his clothes and even organs in his pockets, and yet done nothing about it.
Robert |
Sarah Long
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 110
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 11:03 am: | |
Robert,
That may have been the case, or maybe he did know he was doing something, but when another personality takes over you have no say in it. If he knew what he was doing when the other personality took over do you think that he would turn himself in.
Sarah |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 488
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 11:09 am: | |
Me too, Monty, me too.
I think Frank’s idea sounds very feasible.
A place for everything and everything in its place. I think it’s entirely possible that in his everyday life Jack liked things to be neat and tidy – even to the point of obsession. Sod’s law that in satisfying his darker compulsions things would be left lying around in such an awful bloody mess! He may have felt the need to compensate for the resulting chaos by putting a few items of lesser importance in some sort of order at the scene, as far as time and light allowed. With Mary Kelly, he may have felt the need to have her clothes folded neatly before he could really let rip with the complete abandonment that this new situation allowed.
And of course, if Jack did have a thing about neatness, it is even more understandable that he chose to do his dirty deeds out on the street, or in a room he would never be returning to. Even the most organised killer would not lure victims to a private lair if he couldn’t stand the place getting messed up.
Love,
Caz
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Frank van Oploo
Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 32
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 2:30 pm: | |
Hi Monty,
"Mylett is a possible for me. This is due to the positioning of the body and the neatly folded scarf...."
And the yard, of course...
I think it's possible. These are three similarities, but as far as I can see now, the fact that she was found in Poplar and didn't show obvious signs of injury make me doubt it.
All the best,
Frank 
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Frank van Oploo
Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 33
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 2:42 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
As I’ve tried to explain (but I probably did a poor job), schizophrenics simply don’t have two personalities, so there’s no second one to take over. Whether or not Jack suffered from MPD I can’t say, I simply don’t know enough about that.
Take care,
Frank
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Peter Sipka
Police Constable
Username: Peter
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 3:26 pm: | |
"The intestines were drawn out to a large extent and placed over the right shoulder -- they were smeared over with some feculent matter. A piece of about two feet was quite detached from the body and placed between the body and the left arm, apparently by design."
Notice that Dr. Brown says it was put there, "apparently by design."
(Eddowes' murder)
-Peter-
(Message edited by Peter on November 25, 2003) |
Frank van Oploo
Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 35
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 5:29 pm: | |
Hi Monty,
Please fill me in on Eddowes' buttons. I must have missed them somehow. Can I find anything on them here?
Thanks,
Frank |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 417
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 5:01 am: | |
Frank,
Look up Sergeant Jones in the A-Z or Eddlestons Encyclopedia of JTR.
He found 3 boot buttons, a thimble and a mustard tin containing 2 pawn tickets in the name of Kelly and Birrell....so it states.
Monty
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Sarah Long
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 116
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 5:18 am: | |
Frank,
I was talking about schizophrenia but I meant MPD but couldn't think what it was called so I had to look it up. I've put a link to a site on MPD under the SCHIZOPHRENIC JACK? thread on this same page.
Sarah |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 418
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 5:22 am: | |
Frank,
As a PS...
....One of my favourite suspects has a link with the Poplar end of town and the yard.
As someone is working on this suspect I feel it would be unfair of me to ID them just yet.
Monty
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Frank van Oploo
Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 38
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 2:44 pm: | |
Monty,
Thanks for the info, and I understand you don't want to digress (is that a good word?) on this suspect.
Sarah,
I have seen the link, thanks, but I haven't checked it - yet.
Frank |
Frank van Oploo
Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 42
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 4:27 pm: | |
Hi all,
I think there can be but little doubt that Mary was lying nearly naked on the right side of her bed when she was attacked and killed and, judging by the stabs through a corner of sheet and the wounds in her arms and hand, that she was probably awake or conscious. The facial mutilations might indicate that Jack and Mary were known to each other.
Now, this got me thinking: if Mary entered her room together with her killer, this means that he has to have waited for Mary to undress and fold her clothes, which would have taken quite a few minutes (four, five, six - longer?) and all this time he must have kept his cool, perhaps he would even have liked seeing her undress, while enjoying the thought of what was to come. This sounds like an organized killer.
So I'll try to describe how I think the three types of killers (organized, disorganized and mixed) could have gone about Mary’s murder.
Organized
He would have tried to find women, preferably prostitutes, with private lodgings. After discovering Mary complied with his wishes Jack would have three options:
a- arrange for them to meet somewhere in the streets (not in a pub – too many witnesses) and have her accost him, or the other way around in case she wouldn’t accost him.
b- loiter around Dorset Street and wait for Mary to return to her room. In case she would be with a client he’d have to wait some more for her to be alone.
c- in case she accosted a client before Jack could, he’d follow her to her room and wait around until the client had left.
In case of the first option he would have total control. He would end up in her room without any problems.
In case of the second and third option he would not have had total control, because he still had to find a way to get into her room. Would she go out again after finishing with her client? If not, would she let him in if he were to knock on her door? If she wouldn’t invite him in, he’d have to try and overpower her with the risk of someone seeing or hearing anything. This last possibility isn’t a likely one, judging from the fact that she was lying in her bed and probably was conscious when she was killed.
However, if Jack knew of the window trick to open her door or if he knew she trusted him he’d still be in total control.
Disorganized
He would not have deviated much from his normal routine, which was most probably that he roamed the streets of Whitechapel until he was accosted by an unfortunate, and attack, kill and mutilate her on the scene where she would have taken him to conduct business.
If Jack was such a killer and by chance would have been accosted by Mary, he would have gone with her to her room, where he must have thought he was in heaven. However, I don’t think this type of killer would have been able to patiently wait for Mary to undress, then neatly fold her clothes and finally lie down on her bed. However a disorganized Jack may have found Mary’s room, I don’t think he would have been able to wait.
Mixed
After the invasion of Whitechapel by the police in October, he would have been organized enough to come up with the idea of killing indoors and as a victim must have thought of someone he knew and who met his ‘requirements’, but he wouldn’t have been organized enough to plan Mary’s murder from A to Z. It could also have been the other way around: he knew Mary, knew she had private lodgings and moreover also met his other ‘requirements’ and then thought of killing her.
He might not have been confident enough to accost her, because he thought he would not be able to keep his calm with her long enough, so he decided to follow her home (probably after she had accosted a client, perhaps in the pub they both visited that night) or wait around Dorset Street for her to return to her room. In case Mary was with a client, he had to wait (some more) for this client to leave. When he finally knew she was alone, he had two options:
a- get himself invited in by walking up the court when she was seeing the client of, or by knocking on her door.
b- in case he didn’t know about the window trick he'd have to hope to be lucky enough for her to have left her door on the latch, or use the window trick when he did know about it.
The problem with the first option is that Jack in this case had to wait for Mary to undress, etc. and I don’t say that it couln’t have happened, but I think it’s unlikely.
In conclusion, judging by the earlier murders I don’t think Jack could have suddenly developed into a completely organized killer. Besides, the mutilations on Mary show clearly that he wasn’t. On the other hand, judging from the fact that Mary was in bed naked while she was killed, it seems very unlikely that a disorganized killer was responsible. That means that he probably was something like how I described him under ‘Mixed’.
Of course it’s possible that I’ve overlooked something, in which case I’m sure you’ll let me know.
Take care,
Frank
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1446
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 5:46 pm: | |
Hi Frank
Very interesting post. I myself have been strenuously trying to avoid dumping Jack into a category. Basically, if a good suspect comes up, then I'm interested (although I suppose my favourite suspects at the moment are what you'd call disorganized or mixed).
Here's another possibility : Kelly was behaving that night in a manner which could have attracted attention. She was singing, and there was a hole in her window, so quite a few people heard her. There was also a press report that Chris found to the effect that Hutchinson actually went into the court and heard her inside the room with the smartly-dressed man. Now, Kosminski was said to drink water from the pump : what if he was shuffling around outside, having a drink, and heard them inside? Perhaps he even has a peep through the window. Then he waits for the client to go, and for things to settle down. Then he tries the door. It's only his good luck if it opens.
I'm not saying I think Kosminski did it, just that it's a possibility - either him, or someone like him.
Or it could have been some loony who just wanted to get out of the rain. He didn't know where he was - only that he was wet!
After all, only Gene Kelly actually liked getting drenched.
Robert |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 447
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:24 am: | |
Frank,
Nice piece.
Can I raise an issue ??
Why is it assumed that Mary undressed herself ?
Why isn’t it assumed that her killer undressed her ?
Just a thought.
Monty
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Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 194
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:35 am: | |
Monty,
Wouldn't it be too much hassle for the killer to undress Mary? I could understand why the killer may have undressed her if she had been killed in the morning as opposed to during the night time, to try and make it look as if she was killed whilst she was sleeping but then why would someone do that? The only reason I can think of is so that you can have an alibi for during the night which is when the police will think she died.
Is this what you think?
Other than this, I cant see why the killer would bother in undressing the corpse. I know the killer had a habit of tidying things but Mary was also deemed a neat person so she may have folded her clothes and put them there.
Sarah |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 449
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:47 am: | |
Sarah,
No more awkward than..lets say...gutting her !
The Police/Doctors would be going on Rigor and livor mortis, the room temp ect. Not what she was wearing.
Its alot easier to cut through a chemise than outer clothing. Maybe its something our boy learnt. Maybe the removal of the clothing would quicken it up a bit. Or maybe, just maybe it was Jacks thang !
Thats what Im thinking.
Monty
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Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 196
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:58 am: | |
Monty,
Ok, say he undressed her. Why would he put her chemise on at all? Surely it's easier to cut straight onto her skin.
If the doctors were going on rigor mortis then how come they said she was killed about 4.00 am if the blood was still in liquid form by the early afternoon?
Sarah |
Frank van Oploo
Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 44
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 1:36 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
My objective has never been to dump Jack in a category, it’s just that I’ve always had the feeling (and I still do) that Jack knew what he was doing, that he was aware of it. By trying to describe Jack as organized and disorganized I was able to see that it’s at least probable that he did know what he was doing or that he was a mixed type of killer. Although I must admit that there still would have been possibilities for the disorganized killer to have gotten into Mary’s room (anything's possible in the Ripper case), I think they would all involve quite a bit of luck, like you said yourself.
Take care,
Frank
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Frank van Oploo
Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 45
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 1:57 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
Maybe I’ve missed something, but where can I find that Mary’s blood was still liquid by the early afternoon?
What I found in the Ultimate JtR Sourcebook (paperback) on page 401 is that at the time of Dr Bond’s visit, 2 o’clock in the afternoon, Mary’s body was comparatively cold and Rigor Mortis had set in, but increased during the progress of her examination. Furthermore he says that it takes about 6 to 12 hours for Rigor Mortis to set in. According to this Mary was killed between 2 o’clock and 8 o’clock in the morning and this is in accordance with the 4 o’clock you refer to.
And Monty, you can always raise an issue.
All the best,
Frank
|
Diana
Detective Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 148
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 8:49 pm: | |
If he allowed her to change and fold up her clothes before attacking her then he made a major departure from his previous attacks. Unlikely. If he had killed her and then dressed her in the chemise before cutting her up she would have had blood on her street clothes. She must have had that chemise on when he got in there, however he got in there. She wouldn't have gone out the door in the chemise (forget propriety if you must, it was 39 degrees fahrenheit that night)so he couldn't have picked her up on the street. Either she let him in in response to a knock, or he waited until Afghan man was leaving and pushed his way in the open door, or used the window trick. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1454
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 2:35 am: | |
Hi Frank
Re liquid blood, Bond found a pool under the bed.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 729
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 5:54 am: | |
Frank,
Just had to barge in quickly and congratulate you to your splendid post on December 01 (the large one). Some very fine reasoning and indeed a few valuable points to consider. Well done, mate.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 204
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 6:26 am: | |
Robert,
You beat me to it.
All,
I think it is more likely that Mary undressed herself, whether the killer was in the room with her at the time I cannot say, but I don't see why Jack would have undressed her and then put her chemise around her.
Sarah |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 211
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 6:52 am: | |
Frank
Also the idea that Mary's blood was still liquid comes from Walter Dew's book where he says that the first policeman to run into the room slipped in the blood. |
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