| Author |
Message |
    
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 854
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 7:13 pm: | 
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We are consumed with the debate about what makes a psychopath, heredity or environment.
I saw a piece on the TV news today that got me thinking maybe we could learn something from the dogs.
It started out talking about how many people had been mauled and even killed by Pit Bull dogs, and how many communities are now banning the breed.
There is no doubt that these dogs have been bred for generations to be aggressive and to fight. They have mean genes. They prove there is such a thing as mean genes.
Then they interviewed a man who was some kind of expert on dogs. He had all kinds of credentials which I don't remember. He said that in spite of the genes, if the puppies were reared in a loving environment they could be a loving family pet and perfectly safe.
Might the same thing be true of humans? It takes both heredity and environment to make a psychopath.
Many have said that they don't believe the excuses that criminals give. They know someone who had a horrible childhood and isnt a psychopath. These would be people without the genes.
Of course Dennis Rader kind of shoots holes in my theory. He admits he had a loving, normal childhood, but he is one of the few who says that. |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 229
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 8:25 pm: |
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Diana,
Don't we already know that we are a combination of nature and nurture. I don't think there still exists a legitimate debate over heredity and environment anymore.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 856
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 8:46 pm: |
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Guess I'm old. I still remember when it raged. Now we know that environmental influences turn genes on and off. But there has to be a mean gene there in the first place before it can be turned on. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4215
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 4:25 am: |
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Hi Diana,
"He said that in spite of the genes, if the puppies were reared in a loving environment they could be a loving family pet and perfectly safe.
Might the same thing be true of humans? It takes both heredity and environment to make a psychopath."
Personally I think a psychopath is a psychopath and if you have a gene, you have it. A healthy upbringing can not erase the characteristics of that gene.
But yes, I think upbringing might influence in what way that psychopatic gene displays itself in behaviour. If someone with a psychopathic gene (note that not all psychopaths are violent) is brought up in an environment of incest, abuse etc., I would say the risk is higher that that psychopathic behaviour comes to the surface and becomes violent.
Indeed, pitbulls are the psychopaths of the dog world. They are also incredibly intelligent.
Have anyone seen such a dog look at you? It's like they are thinking out schemes and reading your thoughts and actions. Like the velicoraptors in Jurassic Park.
They are also a pack of muscles; if such a dog attacks you - you're screwed. In my mind you can't train a dog like that - they control you.
I definitely cross the road and use the other pavement if I see a dog owner with such dogs approaching.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 231
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
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Glenn,
I respect your view, but that isn't the common opinion among psychologists these days. It once was common, and perhaps will be again. A problem with the logic is that if the genes can be identified, why not euthanize them at birth or abort them before that? That is a big reason we have to look at nurture as being a primary factor.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4219
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 12:55 pm: |
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Mike,
The gene and physiological aspect of psychological disorders have NEVER been popular among psychologists, as far as I know.
However, I would say that this factor is more relevant than it has ever been. Some scientific projects involving brain scans of violent psychopaths have indicated that there might be a brain damage or a damaged gene in that area of the brain which controls emotions and empathy.
This point is further illustrated by the fact that there to this date exists no succesful therapy for psychopaths - they are totally non-responsive to therapy, and if their disorder was a result purely from child abuse (to pick that example), then we should at least see some example of succesful results from therapy. The fact that there is no cure whatsoever for psychopathy, suggests that it is not a psychological illness you can cure, but in fact a damaged personality trait.
Not to mention the fact that we can see these traits already in children already at a very early age.
But as I said, if a psychopath turns out violent or not - or just uses his/her 'abilities' in for example the business world and legal methods - might be depending on upbringing and nurture - yes - but the traits are still there. You can be a psychopath without turning into Ted Bundy.
"A problem with the logic is that if the genes can be identified, why not euthanize them at birth or abort them before that?"
I think you are underestimating the ethical problems with such an approach. We probably might come to such a solution in the future, but as you know, the whole issue of manipulating genes or a person's personality is still pretty controversial. I can't see how such methods would be accepted today; we simply haven't got that far.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on November 07, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 1:59 pm: |
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Glenn:
Little tip for you..
Don't look at a pit bull in the eye unless you own it. Its considered a challenge.
Some kids got mauled by these ugly,mutant looking critters over the past few days here in the States. Some guy spent 15 minutes whacking the piss out of one with a baseball bat, only to see it come back after the kids. My oldest daughter has one that grabbed onto the end of my schnozz a few years ago and I had to get on all fours until it let go of my nose. I was lucky that it only "hooked" me.
I hate those frigging ghettopoodles. I wish they were considered a game animal like a deer. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 859
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 2:02 pm: |
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If they ever do find a psychopath gene and test for it (big leaps in themselves), I would think that the best approach would be to assign a psychiatric social worker to assist the family in raising the child. |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 234
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 2:12 pm: |
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Glenn,
"The gene and physiological aspect of psychological disorders have NEVER been popular among psychologists, as far as I know."
Define popular. Psychologists I know acknowledge inherited traits. They just don't consider it the main factor in psychopathy. That doesn't make the idea unpopular unless you are suggesting that it is unpopular because it isn't considered THE factor.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 749
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 2:45 pm: |
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"there to this date exists no succesful therapy for psychopaths"
How can there be therapy for something that doesn't exist?
RP |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4222
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
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Mike,
That may be so, but the point is that recent research into and experience from psychopaths do in fact support the notion that the condition, which is a personality disorder and not a mental illness, is a result of brain damage or inherited traits.
I dont know if it's THE factor, but it sure seems to be one it is originating from.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4223
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 3:01 pm: |
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RJ,
What do you mean? Do you mean that psychopathy/sociopathy/APD doesen't exist?
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 236
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 3:11 pm: |
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Glenn,
Many don't use the term psychopath anymore. APD sort of covers it all nowadays. I think that's what RJ is referring to.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Ken Proctor
Detective Sergeant
Username: Gizmo
Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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" Don't be reckless with other people's hearts. Don't put up with people who are reckless wih yours." Baz Luhrman
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 860
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Ken, he's adorable. Obviously not a psychopathic bone in his body.
The Biblical view is that all of us have a streak of selfishness (aka sin). Given the right circumstances there isn't a one of us who isn't capable of doing something awful. Before you reject that one out of hand ask yourself if you are doing so because it has an intellectual weakness or because it isn't terribly flattering. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4224
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
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Mike,
I know that APD is the common term nowadays, although many agree on that it doesn't work very well. Which is why most people today - even some professionals in the field - still use the term 'psychopath', simply because everyone knows what that means. Anti-Social Personality Disorder (APD) is a very broad term and not very practical. Which is why I never use it.
Ken,
Although I know a pitbull can look in many different ways, that surely does not look like any I've ever seen.
At least not the pitbull race I refer to.
Cute, though.
Diana,
yes, most of us do have a mean streak in our body, but not all of us have psychopatchic traits to such an extent that we totally lack empathy.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on November 07, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4225
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
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This is a how we are used to seeing the pitbulls that are used as watchdogs.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4226
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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However, as far as intelligence is concerned, I actually mixed them up with another race - doberman pinscher, also used as watchdogs but more and more commonly used as domestic family dogs.
Dobermans are in fact the ones that I compared to the very intelligent velociraptors in Jurassic Park, simply because they are capable of thinking out plans and control their owners, not the other way around.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on November 07, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 750
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Glenn--I realize I'm probably in a minority of one, but it occurs to me that 'psychopathy,' while a useful term, is something of a garbage pail diagnosis. If Lyndon Johnson, Ted Bundy, Swinburne, and a half a million other people can be called 'psychopaths', then the diagnosis is so broad as to be relatively meaningless. So, no, I'm not entirely convinced that it isn't anything more than a 'useful fiction'
That said, I can see the term as a useful tent-stake, when the wind is howling, the canvas is billowing, and one is trying to get that puzzling creature the 'human personality' under control. But dammit, mankind has wrestled with the question as to why there is evil in the Universe for thousands of years. This is the latest explanation. Stripped down, it doesn't seem any different from the old word "incorrigible," or even the older word "evil."
As for the 2% that are allegedly born hopeless...
Look at it this way. If my Volvo mechanic told me there were 2% of all Volvos that simply couldn't be fixed, nor was there any real explanation as to why the heck they didn't run right in the first place, I'd tend to be a little suspicious. I mean, at the very least, it's a fairly convenient diagnosis from his angle, no? He's broke; I can't fix him!
I wish I had that luxury in my line of work.
Peace. R Palmer |
Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 57
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 10:46 pm: |
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Howard
Good Name. Ghettopoodles. I used to live in the Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania, near a high crime area. Almost all the drug dealers had them in their homes. It took the Police more time to enter the house during raids because they had to shoot the dogs first. They are the nastiest dogs I ever saw. They scare the crap out of me. And that's not good either because they can sense if you are afraid of them. They will attack you.
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1105
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 4:21 pm: |
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Hey Eddie !
From the description you give above...its sounds like you lived near Allentown.
I'd like to shoot 'em...seriously. They're genes gone wrong. My daughter has one the size of a boxer. The sumbitch jumps up and put his snout in my lower forty as I am sitting on her couch. My daughter says..."Oh he likes you...thats why he jumped on you like,Dad.."...I sez, "I hope the dog doesn't like me too much...". I was a prisoner of love,dog style, for about three minutes as Richard Leakey checked out my Olduvai Gorge. I was sweatin' bullets,Eddie..
They are good to the owner and owner's kids...but I still hate 'em. And would enjoy busting a cap in their mutant asses. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 614
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
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Howie - I used to play pick up games of ice hockey on Lasker Rink in Harlem. In the evenings, on our way out of the park, we'd see pit bulls hanging from tree branches like some kinda fruit from Hell...the drug dealers used to "train" their dogs' jaw strength by making them bite onto tree branches and hang on or fall.
Memories.....I'm getting a little misty....
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1106
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 8:10 pm: |
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Sir Bob Robert;
Misty eh ? Misty is better than missing a pair of 'nads, for sure. That sounds like an "exercise" I saw years ago,before tenement terriers became all the shiz-it and def and off the hizook. Word.
A buddy and I went to South Jersey once to pick up a motorcycle from a dude who looked like his Mom and Dad were brother and sister. Hungarian looking...
Anyway,the guy had a pitbull sitting in the front of his trailer [ a well off Hunky ]...My buddy asked him about the dog since it was just sitting on the stoop checking us out and not uttering a sound,nor moving at all. The dude told us he "trained" him by using baseball bats, of which the dog would bite through the barrels, approx.12-15 inches up on the barrel. These were like 34-35 ounce bats too.
The Latinos in Philly [ down near the Badlands ] hold pitbull contests,as the gente Latino has gone 21st Century.
Cocks no more in many barrios,as the pitbull fights rake in a lot more pesos than two tired toreador gallinas
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2303
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 4:55 am: |
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Howard, you said cocks and it got through the naughty net!
Hi RJ,
I can see the point in comparing pitbulls, humans and Volvo drivers (apologies to the third category), but Volvos?
I mean, the only similarity is that eventually all categories go to their respective scrapheaps in the sky.
Your analogy, like your Volvo mechanic claimed, is broke and can't be fixed.
Let me talk physical rather than mental, to explain what I mean.
Dudley Moore arrives at his Tarzan audition but he's only got one leg. Peter Cook has nothing against this delightful leg, in full working order, but then again, neither has Dud.
The missing leg will not grow back, either with herbal tablets and counselling or more intensive care (although if Dud had lived to two hundred who's to say whether, crab claw-like, he would have been back on all twos).
So if some human conditions can't be fixed in a natural lifetime, why not others?
Have a great weekend all.
BTW, Carly tells me the Russian for dog is a word (don't ask me to spell it) that sounds like suebarker.
I'm russian outta here...
Love,
Caz
X |
Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 65
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 11:29 am: |
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Hi Howard
Yes, I lived near Allentown. I used to fish by a park where the druggies would be shooting up. Most of them had their Pit Bulls with them. I would reach the water from the other side and stay away, but always brought a .38 just in case. Wouldn't think twice about shooting one. They're viscious and I hate those things.
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 751
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 11:48 am: |
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Caz - Apples and oranges. All you're really claiming is that the elusive thing known as 'mind' or 'consciousnes' is a material thing like a leg or a Volvo piston, and so it can be 'broken' like anything else. This is open to challenge in any number of ways. Me? I go with 'nurture,' not nature. Everything is filtered through the social fabric...even murder. RP
(Message edited by rjpalmer on November 11, 2005) |
Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 70
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 7:24 pm: |
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Howard,
A woman who works with my wife went to the Chester County Pound to look for a mutt. She said most of the dogs there were Pit Bulls. The one girl told her that most people bring them because they get too nasty and are afraid of their kids getting hurt. She also said they are the only dogs that will bite the hand that feeds them
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1114
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
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Big Ed:
Same thing when I went to the Montgomery County SPCA [ lookin' for cats ] a while back. Almost half of the dogs were pitbulls and all had that "warning" tag on the outside of the cage.
I imagine DelCo has a ton of them,considering Chester is in DelCo, in their pounds. We know what Chester is like.
(Message edited by howard on November 11, 2005) |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 626
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 11:41 am: |
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This just in...I'm not condoning it, but I'll bet there's more to this story.
B'klyn ex-con busted in
pit bull roof-toss death
By JONATHAN LEMIRE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
A Brooklyn man was charged yesterday with heartlessly throwing his family's dog off the roof simply because he didn't want it anymore, officials said.
Raymond Cottle, 34, hurled his 1-year-old pit bull, Spud, to its death Oct. 14 after weeks of starving it, said ASPCA spokesman Joe Pentangelo.
The emaciated dog - who was down to just 39 pounds - died instantly when it plunged three stories and landed in the garbage-strewn rear yard of Cottle's Saratoga Ave. apartment building in Ocean Hill, Pentangelo said.
Cottle had mistreated the dog for weeks - including leaving it on the building's roof overnight - before deciding he didn't want it in his home any longer.
A necropsy revealed that Spud had lost so much weight he had a "hourglass figure" and no muscle left, Pentangelo said.
Cottle, who has a lengthy rap sheet and served time for gun possession, was busted yesterday afternoon when an anonymous tip placed him at a friend's house on Decatur St. He was charged with misdemeanor animal cruelty yesterday, officials said.
Cottle's arrest came just two days after another Brooklyn man, Allan DeCosta, 34, of Crown Heights allegedly threw a pit bull out a fifth-story window after claiming that his mother loved the dog more than she loved him.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 244
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 1:06 pm: |
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All,
I think toothless pit bulls make excellent pets. They are good watchdogs because criminals don't know they're toothless, and they are good with kids because it's hard to gum them to death. The bugger is having to puree hard dog food.
Mike
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 73
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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I hate Pit Bulls.....But I Love My Hootin Hound Dog....He's Cool....And Lazy....But he's my Pal
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 866
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 9:48 pm: |
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I don't care what breed it is. I hate animal cruelty. If a pit bull has got to go then euthanize humanely. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4228
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 5:08 am: |
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RJ,
Regardless if you like it or not, there exists to date no treatment or 'cure' for what is generally referred to as psychopathic traits. Everybody knows this. They do not respond to any kind of therapy. So psychopathy is hardly born out of social circumstances (it is a personality disorder), although the way psychopathy might be displaying itself, could be. There is a difference.
As for terminology, I know that psychopathy is a confusing and broad term, but APD is a hell of a lot worse.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 74
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 7:46 am: |
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Hoover the Hound doesn't eat people, but he loves Goldfish Crackers ! |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 753
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
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"Regardless if you like it or not, there exists to date no treatment or 'cure' for what is generally referred to as psychopathic traits. Everybody knows this. They do not respond to any kind of therapy. So psychopathy is hardly born out of social circumstances"
That's always been my favorite argument: "Everyone knows this."
What happened to the old pioneer spirit of thinking for one's self? I guess it must be pretty rare east of the Missouri.
If you can't come up with an argument that isnt' a logical fallacy, Glenn, I'll wait until DM Radka makes it back, and take it up with him.
The cart is being put before the horse, before the horse is even out of the stable. This is nothing more than an evolution of what used to be called "moral insanity" in the 19th Century.
When science isolates an actual physical defect in the frontal lobes, then we'll talk. I like ol' Cleckley. A troubled and soul-searching moralist. But the psychologists haven't been able to show they aren't mucking together a myriad of very different behaviors (with, in all probability, a myriad of different causes for those behaviors, mainly or wholly environmental) under one very big and leaky umbrella--- whether they call it psychopath, ADP, or Mongolian Chicken Pox. RP |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2314
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:05 am: |
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Hi RJ,
These criminals grow up, more often than not, with siblings and other family members. Their upbringing, environment and taught values can be practically identical, and yet those other family members can turn out clean as whistles.
What subtle difference in the 'nurture' do you think accounts for one sibling turning bad, where the others, supposedly of similar 'nature', stay good?
And I see you respond here quite speedily, but you have not yet addressed my response elsewhere, so I'll pop up a little reminder later on. Thanks.
Love,
Caz
X
PS I think your apples and oranges (comparing dogs/humans with Volvos) knocked mine (comparing the physical body and brain) into a cocked hat. |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 783
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 12:29 pm: |
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Hi RJ,
"What happened to the old pioneer spirit of thinking for one's self?"
Perhaps I'm not getting your point, but when I'm thinking for myself, I can only come to the conclusion that finding a treatment or cure for psychopathy (or whatever you like to call it) would be nothing but sheer luck as long as no one and definite cause for it is found.
All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 249
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 2:49 pm: |
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Frank,
The point is (forgive me RJ), that people develop anti-social disorders (No psychopathy for me) for various reasons. Some of us believe nurture is the main factor, others believe nature (genes) is the main factor, and still others go 50/50 on the matter. People who believe that genes are solely the factor in what creates monsters such as Bundy and Gacy are in the minority in the world of psychology. Most believe that genetics may play a factor, but Nurture is a biggie.
CAZ,
"What subtle difference in the 'nurture' do you think accounts for one sibling turning bad, where the others, supposedly of similar 'nature', stay good?"
This can only be exmained case by case. There is no definitive answer to that question, just as there is absolutely no evidence to show that genetics alone is responsible for ADP. A good psychologist can examine each case and point out where things went wrong. He/she may even be able to make rough predictions after looking at a case in its early stages, but no one can say "here's the gene that made DeSalvo strangle."
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 784
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 3:56 pm: |
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Hi Mike,
I should have added "if there even is one and definite cause" to my last sentence, but thanks anyway for your comments.
Cheers,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2591
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
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Hi Caz,
In your post above you talk about a sort of "bad seed " phenomenon.
Medical investigations during the past ten to twenty years have been studying the patholology of the family and how its internal dynamics can affect individual family members and their mental health.Sometimes an entire family will apparently act as a hermetically sealed unit against an individual member who is either "scapegoated" or just becomes an "outsider" to the family group.
Most such studies have taken place in Canada and America and they are thought to have significant medical/psychological implications with regards to our understanding of various mental illness.
Natalie |
Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 75
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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"What Love can do to a gentle man born"
Yours Truly,
Jack the Ripper |
Stephen Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 3:22 pm: |
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Pit Bulls this and Pit bulls that. What's going on here? About 10 or so years ago in Britain it became the fashion for no-hoper deadbeats to own these horrible animals to enhance their pathetic lives. When the dogs started biting off the faces of their children and the faces of their neighbours' children it became a national scandal highly publicised with graphic photos in the British newspapers. A law was passed in the British Parliament which said something like 'Sure, by all means own a pit bull terrier but you must keep it muzzled at all times' Practically overnight these horrible animals disappeared from British streets because their horrible owners looked like big girl's blouses walking down the road with a muzzled dog. |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1123
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 7:47 pm: |
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The above post is empirical evidence that British people are smarter than Americans [ yeah, I said it...so what? ]...in this instance at least.
You tell 'em "Stephen"!!! When I become King of the US, I will send them all to France... or use them for fertilizer. |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 757
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 9:14 pm: |
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Caz - I don't recall any lingering questions, but then I haven't been following the Jim & Florie saga for sometime. Point me in the right direction, and I will bound over hill & dale like a bloodhound. RP |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2320
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 6:27 am: |
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Hi Nats,
Thanks for that.
Hi RJ,
You posted on the ink thread quite recently and I responded. I have a few more observations to make and a couple of questions for you. I'll be over there shortly.
It seems to be another case of apples and oranges - pre-1992 Diamine and the diary ink, that is.
Thanks.
Love,
Caz
X
PS I promise to wear my muzzle for you...
(Message edited by caz on November 15, 2005) |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 868
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
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My point in starting this thread was to show that in at least one other species aggression is linked to genetic influences.
However, I am a 50/50 person. I believe that the genes for murderousness can be triggered or not triggered by environmental influences. All sorts of genes get "turned on and off" by thier surroundings. You might have the genes for big muscles but if you don't exercise . . .
This was borne out by the dog expert who said that if the puppies were raised in a loving environment they did not have to be dangerous. |
Stephen Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 3:15 am: |
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Howard Brown
Hi Howard. Thanks for your comments on my post regarding pit-bulls. But why did you put my name in inverted commas? Who on earth do you think I am? I always used to think I was me but now I'm not so sure. You've got me all confused here. |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1138
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 6:49 pm: |
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Hey Stephen !
No need to be confused,buddy. I simply forgot to edit that post. I'd have been confused myself if I were you,but I ain't,because you are you. My mistake,Stephen.
"How" |
Judith A. Stock
Detective Sergeant
Username: Needler
Post Number: 61
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 9:33 pm: |
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Hi all, and cheers! After having shown dogs for a bit more than 20 years, I can tell you there are vicious dogs in ALL breeds. That includes the ever-popular Golden Retriever. I have met foul Yorkies and Labs, as well as perfectly lovely Dobermans and American Staffordshire Terriers..one of the breeding bases of what is commonly called a "Pit Bull". Check out the AKC, the UKC and the Kennel Club in the UK, and you will not find a breed called Pit Bull. They are actually amalgams of Staffordshire Terriers, Bull Terriers and gawd-knows-what-else! You can never be certain of what you get when you intermix breeds known for their toughness, but the odds are pretty good you WILL get a bad one. HOWEVER, for the most part, bad owners create bad dogs. There are the odd bad ones in any breed, but USUALLY, any dog allowed to bully or control a home or owner will result in a dangerous animal...in effect, a disaster waiting to happen. These breeds....Staffs and Bull Terriers....are known for their determined nature, their toughness and strength; they were bred to be that way for a reason, but ANY OWNER who trains for bad temper and attack mode will get exactly what they train for! Don't jump too quickly in condemning Pit Bulls...they are known to be the dog of choice of the relatively unsavory few who choose to show off their "manhood" (or "womanhood") by owning a "bad dog". Florida has already banned the "breed".... probably for good reason....but because of some lousy owners, dogs are being euthanised. That's probably fair, too, as they aren't salvageable once they have gone that far. Some are, but most aren't. Better to be safe than to turn an attack dog loose on the local kiddies!
I guess what I'm saying after all that blather is this......"Pit Bulls" are created solely to be bad, with a look and attitude that telegraphs that badness. They are a completely artificial creation of those who think dog fighting is fun; they are paying the price of being bred and owned by idiots. Don't blame the dogs for their stupid owners and breeders. Sadly, it's the dogs that pay the price for that stupidity.
As to what creates a Ripper......nature, nuture, and who the hell knows what else....???
Sorry about all this...had to vent...my apologies to all, in advance!
Judy |
David Radka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dradka
Post Number: 59
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 2:29 pm: |
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Mr. P wrote: "If you can't come up with an argument that isnt' a logical fallacy, Glenn, I'll wait until DM Radka makes it back, and take it up with him."
>>Here I am, then, DM Radka himself, ready to provide total gratification to anyone asking about psychopathy. Ask is the word.
David M. Radka
Author: "Alternative Ripperology: Questioning the Whitechapel Murders"
Casebook Dissertations Section
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