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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4259
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 3:48 pm: | 
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Judith,
Yes, dobberman and pitbulls are a result of breeders, but that does not in itself diminish the fact that they have been breeded to carry bad genes and are more dangerous than many other races.
If you believe pitbulls and dobberman in general are no more dangerous than a golden retriever, or that they share the same genetic traits, you really need a reality check. No offense.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on November 21, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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"It's a BEAUTIFUL day - watch some bastard SPOIL IT."
Sign inside the Griffin Inn in Bath
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4260
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
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RJ,
"If you can't come up with an argument that isnt' a logical fallacy, Glenn, I'll wait until DM Radka makes it back, and take it up with him."
Everytime you speak, you throw out logical fallacies. But what else is new? After over two years on the Boards I have so far never agreed with you on anything, and I am not surprised.
If psychopathy was born out of nuture and upbringing, surely everyone who had been nutured badly and been subjected to abuse under the same circumstances would become psychopaths?
This is clearly not the case, and logical deduction indicates that the answer must lay elsewhere.
It is an established fact that it is impossible to cure a psychpath/APD/sociopath with any kind of therapy. So far every attempt has been unsuccesful. Actually, attempts that have been made so far clearly show that knowledge about their own disorder actually makes them worse, because they learn how to use it to their advantage!
Psychopaths lacks an ability to feel remorse or to place themselves in other people's position.
You can't fix something that isn't there.
I would have hoped that we wouldn't need to have to have this discussion in 2005.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on November 21, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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"It's a BEAUTIFUL day - watch some bastard SPOIL IT."
Sign inside the Griffin Inn in Bath
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 874
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 4:29 pm: |
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I have wondered sometimes if psychopaths weren't somehow undeveloped. The most cruel people of all are children. I taught school for years. You have to work at getting them to understand that the other kids have feelings too, that hitting hurts, etc., etc.
Most of us as we mature start to understand that other people are capable of suffering and deserve a certain level of sensitivity and respect.
I'm wondering if maybe there is some lack of maturation there.
Glenn, one thing we don't have any statistics on is how many little psychopaths were latched on to as children by a parent, a teacher, church worker, scout leader, etc. and turned. I don't argue with your information that once they are adults it appears to be too late. But I wonder if maybe intervention would be possible when they are kids.
An adult who had turned such a child would not really even realize themselves the magnitude of what they did. They would have some idea that the child was mean and that they took them in hand and straightened them out through counselling, discipline, encouragement,etc. Such a person would laugh if you suggested that they had saved the world from an SK. So even though might happen, we have no statistics. |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 761
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:46 pm: |
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Glenn--I called you're remark "everyone knows" a logical fallacy because it is, not because I wanted to irk you. It's what is usually referred to as the "appeal to ominscience" or the "appeal to popular belief"...it's a non-argument because it doesn't offer either evidence, research, or reason. It just demands that the listener accept the dogma.
I am impressed, however, with your undying faith in this great age we live in. It's fairly rare for Historians to be convinced that they were lucky enough to be born in the Age of Enlightenment. Rather, most Historians seem to accept the possibility that their own age might suffer from its own myths and delusions, and hobble around worrying that they might appear ridiculous in 50 or 100 years.
Ever hear of a bloke named Dr. Jean-Martin Charcot?
Once upon a time he invented a diagnosis for mental disease called "hystero-epilepsy." Pretty soon his students and fellow scientists were diagnosing cases of this disease all over Europe. As soon as someone gave it a title --poof!--it existed. Wonderful how that works.
Now. Ehem. Until someone can isolate this alleged malady and show its causes, all you really have is a term: psychopathy. Sorry that I don't quite wish to bow down to it. I've already admitted it's a useful fiction (and "fiction" isn't a bad in my vocabulary). But you're making one hell of a leap to go from this umbrella diagnosis to claiming it represents reality and...even that it is an organic condition! |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4265
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:33 pm: |
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RJ,
Admit that you enjoy irking me, because you sure seem determined to make it your full time occupation.
I tell you what. I can very much appreciate that our views may change in 50 years about it, and common sense says that they probably will, simply because we hopefully will learn more about it by then.
However, we can only base our ideas on things that has been established SO FAR! Everything else is fiction and speculation.
And everything - every test, every study of known criminal with these collection of traits, every attempt to treat them with therapy etc. - to date indicates that we are dealing with a condition here that does seem to indicate some kind of brain damage or at least a malfunctioning mind, in a way that it's beyond repair. Since no so called psychopath to date have ever gotten any better, simple common sense and deduction tells us, that we are dealing with something else here, that can't be fixed and is not ONLY a result of environment and social heritage.
You don't want to accept that such a condition as psychopathy really exists - fine.
Nor do you want to accept any of the findings so far that has been done on the subject or the experiences learned so far from it - fine.
Nor do you accept any expertise on the subject - fine.
Your call.
But then you are the one who's stumbling in the dark and is basing your thoughts on pure imagination - not me.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
-----
"It's a BEAUTIFUL day - watch some bastard SPOIL IT."
Sign inside the Griffin Inn in Bath
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Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 118
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
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I don't think there is a cure for it either. I saw a show on television about a Serial Killer that gave an interview in prison. He said if he was ever paroled, he would kill again.
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 264
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:33 am: |
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Eddie,
It isn't the cure, but the cause we're debating.
cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 123
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 10:56 am: |
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Baron
Ok. Now I understand. In that case, I think most of the time it can start from a traumatic childhood. And maybe a small percentage are born with it.
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 875
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 1:37 pm: |
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But the cause and the cure are inextricably linked. You usually can't cure anything without understanding what is causing it. Sometimes though, the cure is found first and one reasons backward to the cause. |
Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 127
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 1:54 pm: |
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Hi Diana
I liked your post about the dogs. One thing I would like to add....Instinct. I think some dogs have the nasty instinct more than other dogs. For example...A child accidentally steps on the dogs foot. Some breed of dogs will yelp, knowing it wasn't intentional. Other dogs with nasty instinct will bite.
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4269
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:13 pm: |
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Mike,
"It isn't the cure, but the cause we're debating."
As Diana says, the two go hand in hand. That is the whole point.
Eddie,
I believe I have seen that documentary too, among several others in that direction.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
-----
"It's a BEAUTIFUL day - watch some bastard SPOIL IT."
Sign inside the Griffin Inn in Bath
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Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 129
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:12 pm: |
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Glenn,
Yes, there were a few shows about this. The one I'm referring to is a Serial Killer from Texas. But he did roam around the USA and killed in other states. I can't remember his name, but I recall him talking about the murders as if it meant nothing to him. No morals whatsoever.
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 265
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
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Glenn,
I wrote "It isn't the cure, but the cause we're debating."
You wrote "As Diana says, the two go hand in hand. That is the whole point. "
What was the point of that comment? You said there is no cure, so how can two things go hand in hand if there's only one thing, the cause? You make no sense. I don't think I want an explanation however. If you belive it's all about genetics, that's fine, as antiquated and unsubstantiated as your opinion may be. I'm fine with siding with modern psychology on this issue.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4271
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:46 pm: |
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Mike,
Modern psychologists - especially those who have worked with psychopaths - knows that they are beyond any help whatsoever. If their disorder ONLY (note that I said 'only' - meaning that a combination of genetics and environment is what might create a violent psychopath) had roots in environment and upbringing we would see a hell of a lot of people with those traits. Many people go through such experiences without turning into murdering psychopaths.
Although many violent psychopaths who turns to crime might suffer from a difficult upbringing we also can find those who don't. Therefore your reasoning don't make sense.
Modern psychology today actually do acknowledge that the disorder might be a result of something lacking in the brain, i.e. a physical defect.
If it all was a result of upbringing and social circumstances we would at least see ONE succesful result through therapy. To this date there are none.
We also have several examples of people who suddenly turns violent and psychopathic, due to an accident where the same lobe of the brain is damaged - which in turn supports the view of brain damage.
It is the view of everything being a result of upbringing that is outdated and antiquaric.
Psychopaths who commits crimes are not sentenced to treatment and are not considered insane (as opposed to psychotics), so clearly even the court and criminal law system tend to support that there is something wrong with them that can't be fixed.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
-----
"It's a BEAUTIFUL day - watch some bastard SPOIL IT."
Sign inside the Griffin Inn in Bath
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 266
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 7:08 pm: |
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Glenn,
What have I said all along? It's a combination of nature and nurture. That is status quo. That is modern psychological opinion. You are, or have been inferring that nature alone is the cause. That is not what is the current thought. That is the antiquated concept. Am I clear on this? I really don't want to take this any further. I am perfectly happy with you getting the last word in. It is part of your make-up. Go ahead.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4272
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 7:29 pm: |
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If you want to give me the last word, it's up to you.
"You are, or have been inferring that nature alone is the cause."
Actually no, not totally - it depends on if we mean the disorder as a whole or just criminal psychopathy.
In one of my first posts on this thread I wrote:
"I think upbringing might influence in what way that psychopatic gene displays itself in behaviour. If someone with a psychopathic gene (note that not all psychopaths are violent) is brought up in an environment of incest, abuse etc., I would say the risk is higher that that psychopathic behaviour comes to the surface and becomes violent."
In other words, one could suggest that psychopathy origins from a defect gene or a brain lobe malfunction, but whether or not the person in question might turn out to be a violent psychopath, with the traits expressed to such extremes, could be a result of childhood experiences (although that does not explain the cases where this has not been the case). That is what I mean with 'combination'. Psychopathy can express itself in many ways, and not necessarily in a criminal way.
I have no idea how you on one hand can say that you believe in a combination, when you on the other hand so strongly fight against the physical explanation and calls it 'antiquaric'. It just doesn't add up.
The fact that a defect brain function might be the initial cause of psychopathy IS one of the leading current beliefs, thanks to medical studies of such individuals in prisons (I am not talking about the studies once performed by profiling units).
If you think that is antiquaric, you are still living in the 1960s and 70s, when everything still was explained by 'social factors'.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on November 22, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
-----
"It's a BEAUTIFUL day - watch some bastard SPOIL IT."
Sign inside the Griffin Inn in Bath
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 785
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 7:33 am: |
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Hi Diana,
"But I wonder if maybe intervention would be possible when they are kids."
This is exactly what Micky Pistorius, who has a doctorate in psychology and has worked as a profiler with the South African Police Service for 6 years, suggests as the best way of preventing a person from becoming a serial killer. She suggests that the trained professionals in the social services, and even concerned members of the public should learn to identify the signs of potential serial killers and to act on them. Among other things she mentions a bad performance at school, excessive daydreaming, the absence of friends and the triad of bed-wetting. She says that children often give clues that they are disturbed in their play and art.
All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Stephen Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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A little while ago on this thread I had a little rather intemperate rant against pit-bull terriers and their owners and what the British government did to get rid of them. Howard Brown, who is a very clever (and also very witty) fellow, saw the real drift of my argument which was that if a civilized society sees a problem within that society it should legislate to solve that problem, and with the 'Dangerous Dogs Act' the British government sorted out the pit-bull problem in an amusing but effective way.
As to the actual subject of this thread, well it's the old nature versus nurture debate.
About 15 years ago I read a full page interview in the 'Guardian' newspaper with the man who had been the chief psychiatrist in Broadmoor, which is the British prison for murderers who have been judged insane, for twenty or whatever years. I remember that he said that 100% of his patients had suffered mental, physical or sexual abuse (or a combination therof) as children. This is not to say that all people who suffer abuse become criminal lunatics but it is to say that all people who become criminal lunatics suffered abuse of some sort as children. |
Maria Giordano
Chief Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 527
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
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Stephen, while you last paragraph is perfectly right, let's remember that not all psychopaths are criminals. In fact only a small percentage of them are.
Mags
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2374
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 9:20 am: |
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Hi All,
Diana, you wrote:
The most cruel people of all are children. I taught school for years. You have to work at getting them to understand that the other kids have feelings too, that hitting hurts, etc., etc.
But there will always be a certain proportion of children who would never be cruel, and who hate to see other kids - or animals - sad or hurt.
Although kids can learn most things from example (and if that example is kind rather than cruel, so much the better), I'm not sure that empathy can be taught or instilled if it's totally absent in a child. If there is at least a potential for empathy, it may be encouraged or discouraged. Of course, it doesn't take much intelligence for a child without empathy to learn how to mimic it when necessary or advantageous.
While I'm sure that a lot of the more common behavioural problems respond to careful handling and a loving upbringing, I do wonder how much can be achieved in the rare cases where a total lack of empathy may be leading to horrendous, motiveless and repeated acts of violence against strangers.
Love,
Caz
X |
Eddie Derrico
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 137
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:47 pm: |
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I can tell you something about almost all dogs. They don't like paperboys. I was a paperboy when I was a kid and I got bit 6 times. The dogs think you are going to hit them with the paper when you roll it up to deliver it. And dogbites hurt !
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
Lindsey C Hollifield
Chief Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 657
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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Eddie wrote:
And dogbites hurt !
According to this article, dogbites obviously do hurt..
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051230/ap_on_fe_st/chihuahua_attack
Happy New Year, Eddie,
Lyn x
My first reaction is, "OMG that's crazy". But then I'm thinking this just may be crazy enough to work.
copyright © Bradley McGinnis Sept. 2005
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