| Author |
Message |
    
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3086
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:41 am: | 
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Hi Caz,
Like you, I have every sympathy for a woman's lot during the LVP- also as we know, there are now as then,those who feel the need to go out 'tooled up' for whatever reason.....machismo,fear who knows.A person male orfemale as you rightly say has every right to justice,'innocent until..' etc etc. Once you lose this right then justice ceases to exist
Nats-
Sutcliffe's weapons of choice were not the knife -rather ball- pein hammers,Stanley knives and screwdrivers.....Tools of the trade maybe and/ or definately less 'incriminating' than a knife if found on the person.(To my mind though, a LOT more disturbing when used as a weapon)
Suzi
Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!
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Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:42 am: |
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Say what you like about prostitutes "with a heart of gold", life's unfortunates etc. the simple truth is I would lend more credence to the testimony of an otherwise respectable person than to that of a prostitute unless I had good evidence to the contrary, and so by necessity must the court
And this is exactly the mistake that victorian courts and,to some extent,law enforcement officers made.In the here and now however we tend to judge someone on who they are and not what they are.
As pointed out, most serial killers are men of 'good character' so I am just thankful you are not a judge Mr Humphreys 
Bill Shankly to a Liverpool fan:
"Where are you from?"
"I'm a Liverpool fan from London."
"Well laddie . . . . What's it like to be in heaven?"
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 185
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 10:00 am: |
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Steve,
"In the here and now however we tend to judge someone on who they are and not what they are."
Not where I'm from. I was a fairly high-paid corporate guy for 20 years. I quit that world to get my teaching license, which will happen in 6 weeks, or thereabouts. I am working about 25 hours a week bartending on riverboats and everyday people ask me why I'm doing such a thing when I could be making a lot more money elsewhere. This is a daily occurrence for me. The answer is usually something like: "I want my soul back, that's why."
Maybe in England people are more kindly judged, but on this side of the pond, if you don't have wealth and power, or prestige, a lot of folks find fault with you. Prostitutes here are judged pretty harshly. The Christian Right may have a bit to do with that, but don't get me started on them...
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 385
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 11:29 am: |
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Dear Steve Swift,
I really don’t understand your post. Mr Humphreys wrote:
“I would lend more credence to the testimony of an otherwise respectable person than to that of a prostitute unless I had good evidence to the contrary”
To this you replied:
“And this is exactly the mistake that victorian courts and,to some extent,law enforcement officers made.”
The only thing I can infer from that comment is that you think judges should make decisions based on evidence that doesn’t exist!
You then say:
“so I am just thankful you are not a judge Mr Humphreys ”
Why are you thankful? Would you personally prefer to appear before a Judge who says to you’
“Well Mr Swift there’s absolutely no evidence against you but because the complainant says you assaulted her I’m going to convict you!”
Bob
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2710
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
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Gosh, I’ve got a lot to do!
No worries Caz, no offence is ever taken.
But just to go back to some earlier criticism regarding my original report with particular regard to my use of the term ‘large knife’.
It is only fair to point out that the article in the Irish Times of the 29th September 1888 does refer to a ‘long knife’ and this long knife is described by the witness as ‘eight or ten inches long’.
This is a ‘large knife’.
Again it is only fair to say that if one purely reads the Irish report without the additional report from The Times of London, then much of the circumstance and background to the event can be missed.
One thing that has vexed me with the earlier incident in 1882 involving ‘a’ James Johnson and the death of two young girls was that there appears to be no connection to prostitution in this case, so I have been studying London Bridge from where JJ picked the girls up from.
From an interview on ABC radio:
‘Chris Roberts: 'Goose' was an old English term for prostitute. Specifically...
Lyn Gallacher: As in Goosie, Goosie, Gander'.
Chris Roberts: As in Goosie, Goosie, Gander', specifically the area around Southwark in South London, the area around London Bridge, the prostitutes, they were known as the Winchester Geese. The Winchester reference is the Bishop of Winchester, who owned much of the land around the London Bridge area, borough, as it is now, and the land that he owned, they basically legalised prostitution so in effect the Catholic church was getting rent from the brothels that stood on the land, and that's the whole tie-in between the geese and Southwark, and the Catholic church which essentially is what the rhyme alludes to.’
This is quite an early reference, but I was able to pursue this and the result is that the area directly around London Bridge was a den of thieves, crooks, drinking houses and brothels during the LVP, almost as infamous as Dorset Street.
It still is today the haunt of prostitutes but with modern times upon us they are called ‘rent boys’.
It would not be unusual in 1882 for a prostitute to be very young indeed, and I suspect that the three girls who went willingly with JJ on the fateful boat journey may well have been Winchester Geese.
They didn’t float so good though.
I’ll be back shortly. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2712
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 1:58 pm: |
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My dear Count Dacqoz.
I may have forgotten your very important question, but you in turn forgot my even more important brandy.
No brandy.
No answer.
You guys have the best brandy, and I, my dear Count, have the best answers.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2713
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 2:27 pm: |
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Firstly I don’t know why folk get so vexed about this, all I’m doing is shaking a bush to see what falls out, and so far I would say I’m doing okay.
Regarding the age and identity of the individual - or individuals - involved it is worth noting that the age of the alleged attacker is different in the two press reports from the same day.
This is a very common circumstance for the reporting of crime in the LVP, and in many cases the poorer folk of Whitechapel did not have an honest clue to their age, they lived in an age where bread and butter was more important than birthdays.
With a great deal of honesty, and without conclusion, I have pointed out that it is very unlikely that three different James Johnson’s from this period could have been involved in criminal circumstance of an exact nature.
This is not my opinion, it is fact.
I have held back from wild speculation, for instance I could tell you that Elizabeth Hudson was later murdered by her daughter, of the same occupation as her friend at the trial, but have avoided this because the age discrepancy does not allow it to be so.
I could have told you that JJ was a James Johnson, alias ‘Jersey Jimmie’ from New York City who stabbed ‘Billy the Weasel’ in January of 1888 and then fled the bar he ran in the city after being released because Billy was too frightened to attend the court.
Jersey Jimmie had a habit of disappearing, sometimes for years at a stretch.
I could have told you that Jersey Jimmie arrived in Liverpool port in 1881, just in time to take his Winchester Geese on the River Thames, but you see I didn’t do any of that at all.
I have stuck to the credible facts in this case, they are elusive, but they are nonetheless facts.
I’ll just keep shaking the bush while you shake, rattle and roll.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2529
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 3:13 pm: |
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When Peter Sutcliffe was interviewed prior to getting caught, he seemed a man of good character,respectable,decent and was let free to carry on murdering and mutilating young women,at first "mostly" young women in the sex trade but later, and in the case that was his undoing,a young student on her way back to her digs.
It seems to me that no one much cared about the young prostitutes,well except That is for their children who had lost their mum and maybe their folk cared too.
I am not the only person to suspect that this was because Peter Sutcliffe"s word was believed before that of any prostitute.
Such a "respectable" man,a man who could be trusted at "face value".Impeccably neat and tidy. Respectable wife and house in a decent area and in respectable employment.Not a knife in sight
-oh hang on there was a knife missing from an otherwise immaculate set of stainless steel kitchen knives wasnt there?But so what-decent chap like Peter!Naaah!No Way!
BTW this is not to in anyway diminish AP"s brilliantly colourful and very pertinant discoveries above which are unearthing yet more facts about the circumstances of these compelling
cases.
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1644
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 3:32 pm: |
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Hi AP
Your findings are very interesting and tantalizing.
You might be right that it is the same James Johnson but you have not proved that it is, any more than the authors of Uncle Jack proved that the Mary Ann Nichols on which Sir John Williams possibly performed an abortion was the same Mary Ann Nichols who was later murdered in Buck's Row.
I don't buy your conclusion that the fact that two men of the same name were involved in these incidents with women in which violence was apparently a part were of necessity the same individuals. Neither do I see an exact parallel in the incidents on the boat and with the two prostitutes, the latter of which involved a knife and the one on the boat not. At the height of the Ripper scare, if the incident with the women was a set-up, of course the women would have said the man had a knife.
AP, your findings are intriguing and helpful to the field and you do deserve credit for focusing on these pieces of information which do give us a fuller picture of violence against women in the period.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1561
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 3:46 pm: |
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any more than the authors of Uncle Jack proved that the Mary Ann Nichols on which Sir John Williams possibly performed an abortion was the same Mary Ann Nichols who was later murdered in Buck's Row.
?????
What on earth has AP done to deserve her research in contemporary sources being compared to that load of old junk?
Chris Phillips
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2530
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 4:00 pm: |
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An appropriate resonse Chris!
There are so many pedants droning on with collections of "facts" which usually amount to just some slight digression or variation on an old theme that I would have thought Chris of all peple would have appreciated the original splendour of AP"s posts!
Natalie |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3087
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
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AP
As with all your posts there is a moment when one sits back and thinks..."What???"... 9 times out of ten we sit back and make a response because of the 'research'... it can't be denied and most of us don't have the time,or dedication to delve that deeply ..Well Done!
BUT as I said...once that cat lands amongst the sparrows then people jump in all directions,mostly with no flight pattern!!!!
Am also quite staggered by the direction taken by some people here!......
Anyway.that's the beauty of the boards isn't it...Chuck in a spanner and wait for the clangs,clatters and chinks various!!!!!
Nats-
'Pedant' (From Chambers) A school master (Shakespeare) 'One who is learned without being judicious'
At the risk of being pedantic here..How did we get to Sutcliffe from J.J.?????..Sutcliffe was convicted !!!!!!
Suzi
Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 973
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
You wrote:
"What on earth has AP done to deserve her research in contemporary sources being compared to that load of old junk?"
You mean besides distort the meaning of references, make bizarre conclusions unsupported by the evidence, present reports that have already been turned up previously as if they were new material, attack her critics with sweeping generalizations and try to connect similar sounding names for no reason other than to try to make the whole thing sound wildly more dramatic than the original events actually were?
A better question would be what she hasn't done to deserve the comparisons to Uncle Jack, and that would be that when she made deceptive comments about the source material the original source material contradicting her got shown in its original version instead of some apparently altered version...
...but then considering that her version and the real version which was posted shortly after are so different, I'm amazed anyone is taking her conclusions seriously in the slightest. At least with Uncle Jack it took several months before the conflicting original was uncovered.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2531
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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Suzi,
I am off to Venice tomorrow so in no mood to post!
However my reasons for citing Sutcliffe were to offer an example of a man who eluded capture most probably because he appeared, upon interview by the police previously to be a "respectable man".
The arguement above ,made by Bob,called upon the reputations of the prostitutes versus the "respectable" JJ.Presumably he was "innocent until proven guilty"-because of his apparent respectability.The prostitutes on the other hand[one concludes] were to be considered "guilty until proven innocent"because they were not "respectable".
I am citing Sutcliffe and the recent BTK
serial killers because they were so "Respectable" as to be in the BTK case a "Pillar of the Community"!But they were also murderers!
So what has being "respectable"---or even to all outward appearances "of good character" to do with whether a person is a serial killer/murderer etc?
I was referring to Sutcliffes knife because it was never ever found on him-----but he sure used it- wiping away all proof and returning it to the Kitchen set or, when actually caught redhanded ,even managing to dispose of a hammer BEHIND a garbage bin so that the copper nearly missed it.Knife or hammer-its all on record.
In other words being found "not to have a knife" doesnt mean JJ hadnt!Back in a few days
See ya!
Nats
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2532
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 6:21 pm: |
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AHah!So thats whats worrying you is it Dan-that Ap"s work might be taken seriously?I wondered.
And by the way, whats all this " he/she" sh*t!What the heck has that got to do with anything? ---the gender a person decides to be known by on these boards?
Natalie
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5171
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 6:36 pm: |
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Dan, the two "Times" articles were posted at AP's request.
AP is no more likely to falsify information than to dilute brandy with water.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2714
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 7:03 pm: |
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Quite right, Robert.
If someone offered me water to go with my brandy I’d shoot them with my Tranter service pistol without a single qualm.
Natalie, watch out for Venice, you could easily fall in the water.
Ask Robert to explain.
Thank you girl. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 418
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 7:37 pm: |
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AP,
Personally I favour my old trusty Plants Ellis & White patented. But only because it conceals more easily.
Dilute Brandy? What an idea!
Haha...
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Steve Swift
Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 39
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
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Bob - I thought it was obvious but hey ho.
I would HOPE a court of law would accept the TRUTH from someone be they a prostitute or a King.
Clear enough?
Natalie - I'm not sure Sutcliffe was overlooked because he was 'respectable' I think it was more to do with us being behind the times slightly,buried under a morass of paperwork rather than having a national computerised system and so on. I very much doubt, that until after he was caught, anyone actually realised how many times he'd been interviewed.Plus the tape did not help at all.
But...having said all that, the trial was a bit of a disgrace.The judge had to warn witnesses and council more than once for references that alleged that the victims who were prostitutes were somehow 'lesser' beings than the 'innocent' women killed later,I think one newspaper was actually fined or sued for much the same thing.
(Message edited by swift on October 24, 2005)
Bill Shankly to a Liverpool fan:
"Where are you from?"
"I'm a Liverpool fan from London."
"Well laddie . . . . What's it like to be in heaven?"
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3090
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 3:52 am: |
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Nats-
Have a good Venice!!!!All that water should ensure you don't get homesick though........Don't Look Now!!!!!
AP- As was once so memorably remarked."Water????!!!!.never touch it!....fish **** in it!"
Suzi
"Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy, would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!"
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2230
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 7:29 am: |
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Hi Nats,
For once I really disagree with you!
In other words being found "not to have a knife" doesnt mean JJ hadnt!
It doesn't mean he did either. Beyond reasonable doubt is the thing. And there was reasonable doubt that JJ ever had a knife.
If my daughter's muggers had not stupidly thrown the fake gun out the window for the police to find, the charge of armed robbery might not have stuck, but the three victims (of good character) who testified to its use would have had to put up with it if the jury couldn't decide where the truth lay.
whats all this " he/she" sh*t!What the heck has that got to do with anything? ---the gender a person decides to be known by on these boards?
But how is anyone meant to know what AP has decided? AP rightly says it shouldn't be an issue either way, but that means trying to avoid the use of 'he' or 'she' or risk getting it wrong and causing offence.
Hi Steve,
I would HOPE a court of law would accept the TRUTH from someone be they a prostitute or a King.
Me too. But the court has to some way of recognising when the truth is told and when it's not. If there's no supporting evidence, what is there to 'accept'?
Love,
Caz
X |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 386
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 11:26 am: |
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Caz
Well said - saves me the trouble of answering on that one!
Bob |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 387
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 11:52 am: |
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Natalie,
“It seems to me that no one much cared about the young prostitutes,well except That is for their children who had lost their mum and maybe their folk cared too.”
I’m sorry but with that statement you have crossed the line. To denigrate the work done by hundreds of police officers – both male and female – who worked every hour God sent in an effort to catch this man is unforgivable.
I don’t expect someone who describes herself as a part time this and a part time that to appreciate the sheer hard work and self sacrifice that these officers displayed, many of them suffered with ill health for years afterwards, George Oldfield, suffered three heart attacks, and it is probable the strain of the investigation led to his early death. I wonder if his widow would agree that he didn’t care much about the victims.
An ex Naval colleague of mine was in the police at the time, and I remember meeting him again a couple of years ago. I didn’t recognise the tired, worn out old man I had served alongside for ten years, especially considering he was two months younger than me.
How dare you dictate who cares about whom. You should hang your head in shame.
Bob |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2716
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 1:21 pm: |
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That’s just a little bit harsh, Bob.
Natalie’s post may not sit well with those officers involved in the hunt for the Yorkshire Ripper, as clearly many of the junior officers moved heaven and earth to capture the killer, and it was the junior officers on the beat that actually caught Sutcliffe.
Some of the junior officers involved also entertained very real suspicions about Sutcliffe but these credible suspicions were ignored by their senior officers who were more concerned with controlling the press and public relations angle of the sad case.
As I’ve said before these very senior police officers ignored the five pointers in their information system - designed to catch the killer - which led to one and only conclusion, that Sutcliffe was the Yorkshire Ripper.
This was pointed out to these senior officers by the junior officers in daily charge of this highly complex but ultimately successful antiquated information system, but was ignored in favour of a high profile and widely publicised public relations exercise designed to make those senior officers look credible.
An incredible disaster, and it is those senior police officers that should hang their heads in shame, for Sutcliffe killed again after the five pointers in the information system had been identified by junior officers under their control.
Be careful with history Bob, or it might bite your asp. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2717
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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As the dear old Count of Soberano has asked twice now for an explanation, and despite the fact that he has not favoured me with any of his fine brandy, I feel honour bound to favour his request.
My aim has not been to provide linkage between the events we discuss here and to the abominations of the Whitechapel Murderer.
Many obviously think that to be so, and that is why I find myself subject to much accusation of skull-duggery, charlatanism and hocus-pocus.
In reality I am merely a person who enjoys studying old copies of The Times and then making little notes to myself in a jolly ledger, over which I ponder for hours, and sometimes days, while enjoying the less than fine brandy I am able to afford as an author who doesn’t write books anymore.
Many such notes are dismissed, others are forgotten in the paper storm which is my life, but sometimes some little note appears to be worthy of the attention of a group of people who are willing to debate such notes in a kindred spirit of logic, good common sense and jovial investigation.
Often these notes pass unobserved, or receive scant mention and then disappear forever into the hot white sauce of oblivion.
The principle that guides me is a simple one:
‘If it itches then bloody well scratch it!’
As you may observe this particular note has not gone unobserved, and there are a powerful lot of folk out there scratching an itch.
When the note first arrived on the Casebook site it was a virgin, though many claim it was sullied goods, already examined by a ponderous Ripposaur, but my opinion is that the gentleman didn’t even have the good grace to take his boots off, and probably fell asleep whilst he attempted to fumble with his own stays… meanwhile the lady left the bed.
Since the first post we have watched the note grow into something more mature and quite different.
This was achieved in real time, not hidden behind the persuasive curves and allures of publication.
There is no merry ringing of tills here, no publisher’s cheque.
There are no royalties here - apart from you, Count.
There is no hesitation.
And there are no prisoners.
This is the future.
And I want it now. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3091
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 3:25 pm: |
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Bob
As I said,about a mile and a half up this page.....The women and let's face it the men of the L V P (Dear God where did that abv. come from!!??) had more than their fair share of horrors....Dickens and his writing was EASY compared to some of these 'lives'.... Jack London lived amongst em....to a point But........
For what it's worth my Father was a Policeman during WW2 and made it a point to always make sure that anyone taken in charge was given their say...he made a point of that.....maybe,just maybe that's why he died at the age of 63,tired and worn out with the processes in the force at the time.I must point out that after that he had taken up working for Bass and again found some disillusion with the hierarchy involved therein! and maybe thats why 63 is a young age for someone who cared.against all odds
Suzi
"Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy, would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!"
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3092
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 3:39 pm: |
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Nats
At the end of the day I find it hard to believe that chummy (JJ) didn't have a knife or some weapon on his person..let's be honest..... it was a dangerous place to be lurking around!!!(whatever your intention..lurk/slum/stalk))
RESPECTABLE!!!????? Come on!!!!!Most serial killers have a way of looking what you call 'respectable'...that in itself may be worrying..."Respectable" suggests 'normal' and 'pleasant' to the popular press,and suggests someone who is 'invisible' and allegedly 'nice and normal Mr Next Door ' to me..Sorry at the risk of being sardonic here........that's where I'd start to look!
Suzi
"Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy, would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!"
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Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 388
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:48 am: |
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AP
That might seem a bit harsh but I ask you do read what Natalie wrote:
"“It seems to me that no one much cared about the young prostitutes,well except That is for their children who had lost their mum and maybe their folk cared too.”
She didn't say some cared others didn't she said 'no one', and that I find unacceptable. If she meant something different perhaps she should have written something different.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5174
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 5:00 am: |
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AP's asked me to post these from 1882 - August 15th and 28th.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2719
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 6:19 am: |
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My thanks to Robert.
Earlier I was taken to task for implying that the two prostitutes encountered by JJ were unlikely to have been involved in a street scenario scam as most scams involving prostitutes took place indoors.
So I was pleased to find the following indoors scam commonly practised by the prostitutes of the LVP.
Pick up a drunken foreigner, take him back to your common lodging house, making sure your room was on the ground floor, get him undressed and into bed, at crucial moment the pimp jumps in through the window and throws a bucket of cold water all over the trick in bed, prostitute rifles quickly through man’s breeches and exits via the door, pimp jumps back out of the window.
Thank you very much.
One particular case caught my attention from September of 1885, as it involved an American gentleman called William Wootten of New York City who was robbed in exactly this manner by a prostitute and her pimp, but in his case he only managed to get out of the seedy premises by threatening the folk there with a ‘formidable bowie knife’.
See how these Yanks like their ‘large knives’. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2234
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 6:58 am: |
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Hi AP,
As they said about Harry Hill - love the show.
But (and there's always a but in the real world):
My aim has not been to provide linkage between the events we discuss here and to the abominations of the Whitechapel Murderer.
Now what did you call this thread? 
Love,
Caz
X
PS You redeem yourself by acknowledging with your example that some men had need of a large knife to defend themselves against those who would rob. So knife or no knife, JJ could still be more victim than villain. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3093
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 7:50 am: |
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Hi Caz-
BUT.....said that to ensure I was still in the real world!!!(This thread has certainly brought out some 'frank exchanges of views' which cant't be all bad......
Reading back through these press reports though , it does strike me that JJ was not unknown to the police-when it reports 'again brought up on remand'
Suzi
(Nats has gone to Venice for a couple of days........So has Michael Winner to celebrate his 70th birthday!!!!!!Do hope there's not a connection!!!! LOL)
"Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy, would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!"
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2237
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 8:37 am: |
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I wonder if Nats went to hear him say:
Calm down dear, it's only a commercial,
or perhaps she has a Death [Wish] in Venice...
Love,
Caz
X |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3094
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:32 am: |
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He he......little guys in red coats I say.....and NOT Chelsea Pensioners!!!!
Suz xx
"Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy, would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!"
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2721
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
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Come on, Caz, my dear girl, you know that my title to the thread was merely a reference to the fact that there was a possible 'double event' in the East End the night before your beloved double event.
Good point about the knife though.
Glad you are enjoying the show. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3095
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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AP
Tis a good show isnt it!!!!!?? Good to see people shall we say 'having their say' without too many problems!.
Was there a knife??? Who knows...??.......and who cares,...J.J., dodgy cove or whatever seems to be innocent by law..Enough said!!
Now we're into WW!!! ...........
Must remember the man who invented the knife that changed the West...Jim Bread!
Sorry didn't mean to lighten the thread there!
Suzi
"Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy, would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!"
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5178
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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I thought it was Herr Flick.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3096
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 12:41 pm: |
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Well there's always that thought, Robert!
Nats.-
Hope you had a good Venice.with or without Mr Winner...
Anyway where were we???
A man goes out with a knife.....for some reason whether for protection or bravado.....that's all we have....Now -this man is then 'involved' in some sort of unpleasantness...
We have to look at what he is accused of and all the circumstances before J'Accusing him at the end of the day!
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this knife carrying thing today and having taught in inner city areas where 15 and 16 yr olds do this as a matter of (rather disturbing) fact,in fact,they dont feel dressed (!) unless some sort of knife,or other kind of 'weapon' is on their person!
In 1888 taking a turn through Spitalfields,and turning into Dorset Street,I think I'D have made sure I had something to protect myself with!!!! ...
Failing that a police whistle!!!.....(Now there's a thought!))
Suzi
"Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy, would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!"
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3097
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
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So AP-
The story continues....even today....(sadly)....
NOW.. your title to this thread seems to have got lost in a lot of 'frank exchanges ',which as I said can't be all bad....
BUT' we have to start listening to what people are saying here,before responding, not just sitting on a memory of what we wished we'd said!!!
Double Event????....What's happened to JJ and WW???
Suzi
"Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy, would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!"
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2728
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 1:28 pm: |
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I’ve been away studying law to see if I could find out just why the James Johnson of 1882 was acquitted of the indecent assault on the young girl, as her testimony was powerfully convincing and she was not prepared to back down from it, even when questioned by JJ himself in court.
If one looks at the magistrate’s - and coroner’s - comments it is clear that they are not at all happy with the outcome of the case.
The fault appears to be with the father of one of the dead girls who claims before or during the trial that his daughter was ‘violated’; and with the police doctor who examined the dead girl and stated that there were absolutely no physical evidence of such violation.
Violation means rape.
Prior to a new act being passed in August of 1885, a man who entered court where rape had been alleged against him could not be tried on the lesser offence of indecent assault and had to be acquitted.
Clearly in the case of James Johnson a ‘rape’ had been alleged, therefore the court had no other course to follow but to acquit him. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3098
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 4:11 pm: |
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AP
Could not be tried on the lesser offence (!) of indecent assault'Then what was he TRIED on?????
Suzi
"Never trust a man,who if left alone in a room with a tea-cosy, would be able to resist the temptation to try it on!"
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2729
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
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Sorry Suzi
my mistake, of course he could be tried for indecent assault, but he could not be convicted, by the law of the land at the time, because two people in the case had alleged 'violation'.
No matter that the accusation concerned one of the other victims, the law applied to the court, not the victims.
The words 'violation' and 'indecent' could not be heard in the same court of law before 1885 without the acquittal of the man so charged. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3100
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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Thanks AP,
A lot to be thought about here,the father's claim of 'Violation' is of course worth another look,(but DOES Violation mean rape???????,maybe in 1886 it could have meant something far less ![Im not saying it was less of an intrusion!!! but maybe NOT Rape! ]).. and the Doctor's rebuttal on the same accusation is troublesome too.
Suzi |
scottmackieburfitt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:36 pm: |
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suzi-
i wouln;nt go as far as to say tht BTK was considered a pillar of the community, it has been stated that he was/is'nt the nicest of guys to talk to.....can anyone get to me about possibilities of jack in the america, or possible relation to pinchin st. and the unsolved torso murders in chicago....i wont go as far as to say i am an expert, but i can def. hold my weight...currently waiting on registration |
scottmackieburfitt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:42 pm: |
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mr swift-
why was the tape given so much creedence? |
scott burfitt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:16 pm: |
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suzi-
have fun in venice, as to the BTK, he is not known to be particularly respected or a nice guy
p.s. if any one would like to chat on jack and an american conection....i would be very interested....especially to the torso of pinchin and similarities to the torso murders of chicago.
not saying iam an expert,just love exploring possibilities |
scottmackieburfitt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:49 pm: |
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how long of wait before being posted? |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3101
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:10 am: |
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Scott-
BTK???? Sorry am I being paricularly dim this morning????
It's Nats who gone to Venice,not me!!!!.think I MAY have remembered that!!!..but there again...........
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3103
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 10:00 am: |
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Hey thats a point......... Scott!!!!!
I'm posting on Friday and youre posting on Monday all within about an hour!!!!!!!!
Spooky that!!!!
Anyway none the wiser about BTK!!!!
Suzi |
Ally
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Ally
Post Number: 1092
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 10:14 am: |
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Hey Suzi,
BTK was a serial killer operating in Kansas, USA in the mid to late 70's and 80's. He wrote letters to the authorities taking credit for his actions and calling himself BTK which stands for Bind Torture and Kill.
He fell of the map after the 80's and resurfaced recently by sending letters and memorabilia taken from the crime.
He was recently caught and it turns out that he had been an "upright" citizen, boy scout leader, leader of his church, held a respectable job, married with kids, blowing holy hell out of all of his profiles.
I think there is a thread on him over under Beyond Whitechapel.
Cheers,
Ally
(Message edited by Ally on October 28, 2005)
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