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Message |
    
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2734
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 11:31 am: | 
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From an Old Bailey transcript concerning rape:
‘James Purdue . I examined the child on the nineteenth of November last, in the presence of Mr. Howard, Mr. Gloster, and the house surgeon of the Infirmary. We found upon inspection of the parts, that there was a discharge; we did not take it to be venereal, but the fluor albus; there did not seem to be any mark of violation, on the contrary, the hymen, which is the test of virginity, was almost entire; the passage was very straight.’ |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3110
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 11:35 am: |
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Thanks Ally
God should have remembered that!!!!!! Mind you its the week end now so have an excuse!
AP
Ouch!
Suzi
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2533
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
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To Bob Hinton,
I believe AP has answered the point you made about the hunt/capture of Sutcliffe etc so I wont go over that again.Many Thanks AP.
Just one additional point though-it seems to have been forgotten how many women were demonstrating on the streets as time went by and more murders were committed ,yet he wasnt caught.
This is what I was referring to more than anything else-groups of women from all walks of life, shouting on the streets for the police to "get a move on".
The police probably were doing their best-I dont want to argue over it really as I believe AP has dealt with it already.
But I do take exception to your comments about my work record.I can bet it matches yours anyday Mr Hinton.
I worked full time as a teacher from when my daughter was four years old until she went to University by which time I held a senior post as head of a key educational dept. I continued my studies by undertaking an M.Phil in Linguistics, as well as continuing in full time advisory work.It has only been in the last six years that I have had the luxury of teaching [mornings] and painting[afternoons].
I can assure you I am no stranger to hard work.
Anyway-there isnt ant need to get personal.
In future I shall just avoid your posts Mr Hinton.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3120
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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Natalie
None of us are strangers to hard work I assure you!..Nothing personal here...just a fact!
Suzi |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 392
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 6:36 am: |
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Natalie,
I'm afraid AP has not dealt with this matter even though she tried to do it by private email rather than in the open on the board.
You wrote:
“It seems to me that no one much cared about the young prostitutes…”
That is a slur on the character on those officers who worked so hard on the case.
If you meant to say something else, as AP was intimating, then apologise for your remark and tell us what you meant to say.
Bob Hinton
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Steve Swift
Detective Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 7:08 am: |
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Bob,
'That is a slur on the character on those officers who worked so hard on the case'.
I did not work on the case, but I really do not see how this is a slur. Natalie is making a general observation here and one that is no different than the one made by a lot of people at the time.
The comment.....'It seems to me that no one much cared about the young prostitutes' was actually borne out by comments made in court and in the press after Sutcliffe was put on trial too so what she says is basically true. However, Natalie did not point fingers at anyone specifically - only you did Bob.
Bill Shankly to a Liverpool fan:
"Where are you from?"
"I'm a Liverpool fan from London."
"Well laddie . . . . What's it like to be in heaven?"
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Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 393
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 7:23 am: |
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Steve,
Natalie was being very specific here. She stated no one cared. That's very specific.
If she meant some people cared less than others I would possibly agree with that - she didn't say that, she insists no one cared.
Bob |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3122
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 10:00 am: |
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Steve
Im sorry I read that TOO ..........
There were a LOT of men who worked on the case who cared!!!!!!!!!!
NATALIE... you must realise that at the end of the day that people cared!!!!
I care!!!! maybe thats my fault!
Suzi
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 200
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
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Bob, Suzi,
She said: "It seems to me that no one cared..."
That is an OPINION. That's what we do here, give opinions, make theories, throw out ideas. Your belief that people cared is an OPINION. If you can find documentation that many people cared, put it forth for scrutiny, otherwise it is OPINION. Got it?
Bob, your response was out of line, period. Anger management classes are available everywhere.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Steve Swift
Detective Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 54
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
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Bob, Suzi,
She said: "It seems to me that no one cared..."
That is an OPINION. That's what we do here, give opinions, make theories, throw out ideas. Your belief that people cared is an OPINION. If you can find documentation that many people cared, put it forth for scrutiny, otherwise it is OPINION. Got it?
Bob, your response was out of line, period. Anger management classes are available everywhere.
Ditto.
Bill Shankly to a Liverpool fan:
"Where are you from?"
"I'm a Liverpool fan from London."
"Well laddie . . . . What's it like to be in heaven?"
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3123
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
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Steve Swift/Baron Z
Anger management!!!!?? Come on....
Nobody's angry here to be honest.....trouble is maybe we do care about things ....that's why maybe it sounds a bit noisy!!!
Suzi |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2741
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
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I did my bit here.
I don't think one should take Natalie's comment in the way that Bob has.
A general condemnation of the police handling of the Yorkshire Ripper case is warranted, especially when that comes down to the attitude of the senior officers working on the case towards 'unfortunates'.
They more or less saw the prostitutes as criminals; and energy was only injected into the case when a 'fortunate' was murdered.
At a senior level, I mean of course, and again this can be seen as a direct result of better public relations rather than a sincere desire to exploit their own information systems which screamed at them 'here I am! Catch me now!'
The junior officers on the street and beat knew what they were at, but they were not allowed to speak or act, even when information had been provided to them directly naming the killer.
Instead we have a monumental policing disaster where senior officers are on public record as referring to victims as 'old slags'. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3126
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 4:32 pm: |
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AP
As you rightly say, it was only when a 'fortunate' was murdered ,that the press and maybe to some extent, the police stood to attention over the Yorkshire Ripper.
Sadly though ,I think that in 1888,as now ,there was an element in the force who looked on anyone considered less than, whiter than white shall we say,as 'untermensche' and less worthy of their attention.
As to whether or not this was resticted to the junior ranks of the force,I couldn't comment or would wish to, but I'm quite sure than more than one comment such as 'old slags' has passed more than a few lips,sadly in this case it was recorded and reported !
Suzi
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2743
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
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I started this thread in a genuine attempt to place more information into an area that I felt was sadly lacking.
If you got wars to fight, or an ego to protect, go elsewhere, this thread is about information.
I'd rather have a hernia than talk about Sutcliffe or the coppers who couldn't catch him.
Sutcliffe is a twat.
Natalie is a prize. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3128
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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AP
As ever your information makes for good reading!
Sutcliffe is a worthy 'twat' however who must be refered to surely in the discussion.
Suzi |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2744
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
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Well, yes, Suzi, I suppose you are right.
It must have been the brandy that went suddenly to my head, and made me think that one could discuss an event from the LVP in a serious fashion without it being hijacked by folk who have problems with concentrating on anything but themselves and their fragile ego.
Forgive me. I am such an old fool.
Let us talk worthy twats then.
I have some letters from Peter here.
He says Sonia did it.
What think you?
He says it was messages from god.
And then they went on to open a diary that sold very stale milk. |
Ally
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Ally
Post Number: 1094
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
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Damn.
A knockdown drag-out fight that I am not involved in, in any way. I must be slipping.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3131
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 6:16 pm: |
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Ally!
You're not slipping my dear!!!!!
Who's fighting?? Moi???? LOL
Suz x |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3132
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 7:35 am: |
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Now where were we..........
Suzi |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3041
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 8:00 am: |
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Wow this threads so off topic. everyone chill!!
yo Suzi,
i think we were discussing a double event the night before. But that may have been at some point before i was even born the way this threads going...
yo!
Jenni
"Don't you know it's true what they say, Things happened for a reason,"
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3042
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 8:02 am: |
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ps i find the word t**t offensive, please lets try and be civil.
yo
Jenni
"Don't you know it's true what they say, Things happened for a reason,"
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3133
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 9:54 am: |
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Thanks Jen YO!
Right civility from now on!(as ever!)
Suzi x
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2746
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
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Yes, my apologies for that indiscretion.
I find the word offensive as well, but not when applied to Sutcliffe.
My interest is in whether folk reading this thread - well, how it was before it crashed - believe that:
James Johnson had a knife with him, or not, that night in 1888?
That the two prostitutes were telling the truth, or attempting to ruin the life of an innocent man?
That the three reports found concern the same individual, or three different individuals?
And should the James Johnson of 1882 have been tried for murder?
Then finally does the James Johnson found from 1888 make a better suspect than let's say James Maybrick, taking into account that we know he was charged with an assault on two prostitutes the very night before two prostitutes were murdered, and was released with plenty of time to get back on the street again? |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3140
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 1:28 pm: |
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AP the double 'Double' event of course is of course interesting
A knife on JJ's person isn't that unusual though is it?
Maybrick???? yes our JJ is maybe more likely
Suzi |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2747
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 1:38 pm: |
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Agreed Suzi, a knife would not have been unusual, but I think the distinction here to be a 'large'knife, something like a 'Bowie' that had no place in the day to day events of the LVP.
I didn't realise that you lived in Wickham, Hants. Old stamping ground of mine.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3141
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
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AP......Wickham?? REALLY????? do tell......am intrigued........ sure Lyn will be too!!!
Suzi
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 492
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 3:25 pm: |
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Small world, then, AP.
Which part of Wickham did you stamp?
Lyn
(Apologies for the interruption. Please continue..)
Never leave home without a paperback.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3144
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 3:49 pm: |
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LYN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2 2 2 2 2 2 2eh????? Wickers is still Wickers..nothing changes here!!!!
Suzi x |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2748
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
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'Bout twenty years ago I used to drink in the pub that is now a wine bar I believe, in the main drag, and once was pillion on a motorbike that was driven into the bar of the hotel just along from there, had these big sort of Georgian pillars in front of it, and we used to drink in a pub - now closed down - that was near to the bridge and stream.
I lived in Twyford at the time and we managed to drive cross country all the way to Wickham without using a road, but crossing them when required.
There was a little village, the one with the slow down signs if you do over 30mph, just up the road, where there was a derelict pub that did Status Quo, real ale and everyone had a rough haired Jack Russell in their coat pocket.
When time was called we used to pour the pint into the pocket of the nearest Barbour jacket.
Guilty as charged. I drowned a lot of Jack Russells in those days.
Wickham is nice. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2540
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 6:50 pm: |
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Hi Ap
I used to like Status Quo-and apparently the "Party aint over yet!"[theyre doing a gig in November].I preferred Sid Vicious and the Sex Pistols though-still do-
Do you mean Twyford in Ealing? |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3145
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 3:10 am: |
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Hi all,
That is seriously spooky AP!Not much has changed in Wickham,still a lot of damp Jack Russells about!Sadly not enough Quo though..AND Wickham now boasts a NON-SMOKING ESTABLISHMENT where the Star pub used to be!!
The Georgian pub is still there though....The Kings Head...and the Wine Bar still flourishes!
Suzi |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2252
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 5:54 am: |
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Hi AP,
Then finally does the James Johnson found from 1888 make a better suspect than let's say James Maybrick, taking into account that we know he was charged with an assault on two prostitutes the very night before two prostitutes were murdered, and was released with plenty of time to get back on the street again?
Ah, so you are trying to link JJ's and Jack's double events. JJ is suddenly a suspect.
(Maybrick isn't a suspect, by the way, since the diary has no historical status.)
But on other threads, you argue for Stride's murder not being by Jack. And no matter how many times you invoke JJ's 'large' knife, it doesn't make it an established fact. Only one of the women claimed he threatened her with it, and what do you think she would say about its size, whether he had one in his hand or not, in the middle of Jack's spree: "Oh it was only a tiddly little knife, officer"?
Love,
Caz
X |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2544
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 7:15 am: |
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Hi Caz,
I had to have a laugh over that last line I must admit!
And I can actually see both sides regarding these cases.
However if the cases have revealed the existence of a " double standard" regarding our contemporary judgements of statements from the type of women concerned ,this in itself could throw light on another of the reasons Jack may have evaded capture.
As I said, I too have my doubts -re the reliability of the women"s word, without the evidence of the knife.
I think though that given the notorious "double standard" that prevailed in Victorian times, even more so than today ,regarding statements from women considered "less than respectable"I myself might veer towards giving them the benefit of the doubt.
So maybe Jack pulled off a hat trick in that 24 hours!No one can be certain either way!
Maybe too the thread should be renamed,"The case of the Double Event versus the Double Standard"-----but I can already hear the screams of indignation from Caz and co-about the knife-Oh Well!
Natalie |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2254
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 12:32 pm: |
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Hi Nats,
The brick wall for us now is the double standard - any way you look at the JJ case. He got off, but because we can point to the poor treatment of the alleged victims, we can now throw doubt on JJ's innocence.
But JJ's innocence or guilt had nothing to do with double standards. He either assaulted the women or he didn't, and it's his conduct that needed to be judged, with whatever evidence was available. Should JJ have been convicted solely on the word of two friends, given 'the benefit of the doubt' - regardless of their gender, or opinions about their respectability? I would hope not. Traditionally, the benefit of any doubt has gone to the defendant.
And we don't know that a knife would have been found nearby if the police had looked hard enough.
Hat trick? Not a very capable one, was it?
Love,
Caz
X |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2750
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 1:20 pm: |
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Enjoyed those thoughts, girls.
If my old memory doesn’t fail me, I seem to remember that the knife found in Whitechapel Road after one of the murders - or was it the double event? - was discarded in a doorway right on a copper’s beat, and he had walked past it several times without noticing it, until it was finally pointed out to him by a member of the public?
I know I spent some time reading through a report in The Times recently and it did appear to indicate such circumstance.
Caz, I think you know that this other double event has warmed me ever so slightly to the idea of the same hand killing Stride and Eddowes, but that is severely tempered by the data I’m working on at the moment for the ‘Murder in the LVP’ thread, where there is a powerful and persuasive body of material showing that the murder, or attempted murder of women by their ex-partners - after a short period of separation - by throat cutting or slitting is the ‘norm’.
It is this simple fact that always makes me hesitate over Stride’s killing.
Simple, but important, because I am dealing with material of the age and we must take that into account.
I think Natalie to be quite right and correct in banging home the idea that witness testimony from prostitutes was regarded as tainted evidence, because they were thought of as common criminals by the investigating authorities.
This is a truth.
And, yes, a Jack or a JJ could have used this situation to unique advantage.
Much in the same way that a JJ could commit serious sexual offences against young ladies if he understood the legal distinction of the time in the law between rape and indecent assault.
JJ is of some import to our understanding of the case, and worthy of further study, but just like with my mate, Thomas Cutbush, all I want to see is further study, and not pre-emptive conclusion. |
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