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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5009
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 5:37 pm: | 
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Oh no, AP! Don't tell me we disagree about Kelly as well as Stride? (Tabram's a very grey area).
Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2541
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 5:46 pm: |
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Robert
we never disagree about anything.
We sit down, drink tea and brandy, smoke a few fags, and then you say to me:
'Have you seen the story in The Times, this morning?' |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 295
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 6:06 pm: |
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AP,
Your efforts are outstanding, and may your eyes not wear out through all that reading!
But..you do realize that although murders involving mutilations are not that "unusual", it does not prove that serial killers do not exist.
Nor does it make it unlikely that a series of murders in the same general area over a short period of time may be the work of a serial killer. As a matter of fact, if a serial killer is suspected, then we might also suspect links between such murders.
One of the things that speak against a domestic in the case of MJK, IMO, is that no one was ever caught. The police were not absolute fools, and I'm sure they did not absolve any men in her life that easily. Even if the Ripper scare might have made "everyone" think about the Ripper, I'm sure the police did what they could..and came up with nothing. Most domestics ARE solved, you know.
And husbands, lovers, even friends, would automatically be suspects. Even if they DID only look for Jack, I'm sure they considered Mary's three or four "men" a possible candidate.
And yet, Nada.
Phil,
You first post of Sunday, September 18, was very insightful, and I enjoyed it thorougly!
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 18, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2542
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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Thanks Helge
for a post that makes me realise that I do have to peel my onions before I cook them.
I think what I talk about here is 'out of the blue' stuff; a case where someone walks back into the life of someone else months after the relationship has finished, and says 'think I'll murder you now'.
Anyways I'm working on it.
Thanks for your kind words. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 296
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 3:16 am: |
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AP,
Hmmm.. Yes, I see what you mean. Except in most cases there would be an argument preceeding any actual kill. And the walls of no. 13 Millers court were ultrathin.
And yet no one reported anything but singing.. (except for the oh, murder)
That being said, I see the possibility that in this instance Mary may have known her killer. The likelihood is far much greater than with the rest of the outdoor victims. However, back to the "trail of a serial killer" stuff. Many known serial killers have killed both indoors and outdoors.
I have entertained the notion for some time that Mary was killed by the serial killer Jack, but that she actually knew him. At least tangentially. No conspiracy theory. No Jack killing others to "get back at", or "back to" Mary or anything. But a Jack that runs greater risk on the streets and finally decides to kill her simply because she would be available.
This would be a killer that needs no argument, no fight, nothing to make him go over the top through anything she did or said. A coldblooded killer perhaps sneaking in in the dead of night.
And he may have been totally unknown to the police, because he need not have been properly involved with Mary at all. Just a casual acquaintance. Maybe a lover from years ago, even just a drinking partner in the dim past.
Yes, I know, it's just speculation. Call it male intuition if you will. (and we all know what that is worth! Hahah).
Anyway, this goes contrary to my main theory, which is much simpler, that her killer was in fact Jack, and that he posed as a John as he always did, and did not know her at all.
But, even if this is my best bet yet, I see problems with this..as I'm sure you do as well.
Anyway. What is groundbreaking in your research is the fact that at least now we know a lot more about the violence of the period. Actually a whole lot more. And what you do is Ripperology at its best!
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2548
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
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I think Helge that you will be able to see from the case I have just posted on the Stride thread that an argument does not always preceed violence.
This guy just walked in the door after twelve weeks and said 'I'm going to murder you...' and then did his very best to do that very thing...
as well as stabbing that thing!
Thanks so much for your positive comments. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 297
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 3:25 am: |
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AP,
I do not quite agree, although I admit you have proved me wrong that arguments do not always preceed violence.
But then again human behaviour is so hard to fathom at times, and so violent and base in some instances that everything imaginable have probably been done or happened.
However, there is a great difference between bludgeoning and/or stabbing a woman in a frenzy and deliberately carving her up, placing parts here and there.
Besides, in that case you mention, there was a great deal of commotion, was there not? One could almost say that the few words exchanged was a sort of argument?
What probably happened in the case of MJK was that someone killed her very deliberately, and stealthily. Not in a fury, or rage. Or at least, in a sort of controlled fury and rage.
And that looks more like Jack in my eyes.
Had this assault happened in Millers court, it would all have been a different story, and Diddles would not have been the only one to react
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2549
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 2:05 pm: |
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The commotion came after the attack in the case I highlighted, Helge.
If the fire had been lit in the room, there is no doubt that the woman would have been murdered, but by ducking into the fireplace and holding up her hands she was able to avoid the attempts by the man to cut her throat.
Take away the witnesses, push the clock forward a bit, have the man murder the woman in this case... and then what happens?
Does he walk out of the door?
Yes, if he is a stranger.
But what if he is the avowed lover or jilted lover of the victim?
Then he will sit down and ponder what comes next.
The disposal of the victim comes next I would suggest.
He probably sits there so long contemplating his next move that the kettle on the fire melts.
And then to slaughter.
But at some point he is disturbed in his slaughter and flees the premises, leaving us with a vastly mutilated victim, and a mystery.
I just like playing these complicated things over in my mind. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 298
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 4:00 pm: |
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AP,
"I just like playing these complicated things over in my mind."
Well, that makes two of us!
If I read the story correct, there was some commotion during the attack, but, ok, I get your point.
If the attacker was a bit more "lucky" or skilled, maybe there would be no noise to speak of.
However, I don't quite see how anyone could have contemplated disposing of the victim through the type of mutilation done to MJK. I would imagine there would be more focus on dismembering than mutilation and cutting out bodyparts.
I'm not arguing to be difficult here, just my opinion. It just does not feel right.
On the other hand, I could more easily go with that scenario of yours if we disregard the desire to dispose of the victim.
I mean, was he (whoever it was) really planning to make Mary Jane disappear? And was he really planning to tidy up that room with all this blood? An impossible task, IMO. Of course, our guy may not have been much coherent by now..
And how to transport the body? Piecemeal in his pockets?
Logically, no one would have believed MJK to have just "disappeared" with all the blood as evidence of a crime. On the walls, the floor, the bedsheets, the bed itself.
It probably would take a day or more to clean up that mess! No one knowing MJK could have contemplated having a full day to do that job. And anyone not knowing her would probably not either. Actually, probably even less so. A wild plan, if ever there was one, and not one most people would even contemplate.
And yet, I still see more of a plan and icy cold deliberation in the Millers Court murder. Also consider the possibility (probability as I see it) that Mary actually was killed in bed.
So the killer either entered with her, not giving away his intentions for quite a while, or he snuck in while she was asleep. Granted, a former lover would know about the lock, etc. But would he necessarily know about the broken window? Would he know that Mary was at home at all? The "sudden" decision to kill seems to me to be not so sudden at all, involving either pure "chance" (as in Jack stalking his prey), or deliberate planning.
Barnett would have known it all, of course, but he is not particularly high on my list of suspects (actually I think it more likely whoever did it is not recognized as a suspect at all). See the things I said earlier about the police not being totally daft.
But all this is just my opinion, of course.
I'll give you that, AP, that even if your theory does not sound just right to me, it's certainly no worse than some of the things I have contemplated as possibilities!
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 9:03 pm: |
|
AP - as always,nice work but........I think you are heading down a little blind alleyway here.
I agree in principal that the LVP was a violent period,even more so in that tiny area of Whitechapel,however,while murder with mutilation is not that uncommon I would suggest that murder with mutilation AFTER the victim is dead - is.
So I would point to the fact that you need to be looking at post mortem mutilation, as you probably already know.
There had never been anything like the Ripper's killing spree (or at least recognised as such).
I'm afraid thats not quite true Phil,Mary Ann Cotton had killed 14 in the 1870's,Burke & Hare are credited with 200, Elizabeth Bathoray?
We're going to have to disagree about Mary Kelly at least AP, Stride we can talk about ;) |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2137
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:20 pm: |
|
Hi AP,
Caz has often berated my good self for being unable to supply a domestic murder in which savage mutilation has been used...
Caz and others have sort of maintained that the vicious mutilations associated with Jack's crimes do not really figure in domestic murders.
Well, I aim to prove 'em wrong.
Have I really? I hadn't realised that, and I don't touch Spanish brandy! 
My main question has concerned the number of prostitutes who were murdered then mutilated after death, in incidents that turned out to be domestic.
Glenn has been reassuring any doubters for some considerable time now that there are many documented cases of domestic murder and mutilation every bit as vicious - and then some - as the slaughter in Miller's Court. So I wouldn't argue otherwise.
But something just doesn't smell right with the idea that a vicious domestic killer, lashing out at a wayward girlfriend, for example, would have the presence of mind in mid-flow to whip out an organ or two, or several, to ensure Jack got the blame.
And because so many domestic killers do get buckled eventually, one such pretending to be Jack could produce the opposite effect to the one desired. You have pointed to violent domestic cases where the culprit gets a slapped wrist. But if they had reason to believe he was Jack to boot, it would end in tears and a snapped neck.
Love,
Caz
X |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 911
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:28 pm: |
|
Steve - Bathory was of the ilk of Giles de Reis in France, and a couple of centuries before hand. They may have killed many victims, but i don't consider either serial killers in the modern sense.
Burke and hare were also murderers almost "to order" rather than serial killers in a modern sense. It was an off-shoot of their other profession.
Saddam Hussein may have killed thousands, but I don't consider him a serial killer in the sense that we are discussing. We have to use some sort of discernment here.
Phil
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2556
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 1:24 pm: |
|
I agree already, folks.
Good points that do stand firmly in the way of my enquiring mind and the dead ends it sometimes seems to blunder into.
However, there is one thing that bothers me a great deal from the years 1886, 1887, 1888 & 1889, and that is the sudden increase in the post mortem mutilation of women - some of them prostitutes - in those years.
As yet I have not tallied the amount of dismembered female corpses that were found either in the Thames - or other water courses - or strewn about London.
Remember they were murdered and then dismembered after death, and at least two of the possible five or six women were prostitutes… just because they got chucked in the Thames does not negate their importance to our true understanding of such crime in the LVP.
There does seem to be a school of thought at work here which entirely dismisses such victims as totally irrelevant to our fundamental understanding of the murder and mutilation of women in the LVP.
Well, it ain’t good enough, folks.
These murdered women were mutilated well beyond any form of recognition, and in some cases parts of the bodies were indeed missing and were never found.
I do plan to catalogue these gruesome crimes, and I believe that will show that at least two prostitutes were murdered and mutilated in a manner that I still - just - believe may apply to the case of Kelly.
As Robert might say ‘she’s fallen in the water’. |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 108
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
|
AP
I look forward to this.
I think it is about time these torso type murders were discussed, as you know I think there are certain similarities between the murders of Elizabeth Jackson and MJK.
Debra |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 338
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:23 pm: |
|
AP,
Again, you're still my foxy fox
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2561
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
|
I look forward to it as well, trouble is some complete and utter maniac just gave me a litre bottle of Jameson's, and that little sod keeps waving at me.
By Monday I should be okay.
Between now and then, if I see a fox, I'll feed it to the chickens. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2564
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
|
While trawling through the reports associated with murder, mutilation and the river courses of London, I came across this most extraordinary case of murder and mutilation where a French nurse - Eugenie Blanchard, 22 - to a South Kensington family murders her week-old child and then actually cleaves the poor thing in half, chucks the left half down a drain to be found by a plumber, and scatters the rest around the parish.
My interest was in the method of mutilation.
The full report in The Times of May 30th 1888 makes a provoking read. |
Red Riding Hood
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 6:04 am: |
|
great work A.P Wolf.
but i cant answer your question Howard, account not activated!...obviously you like to talk to yourself over there, that's the first sign of madness you know, or is that an old wife's tale haha?
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2648
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 4:07 pm: |
|
I see ‘The Star’ was at this game a long time before me.
From the Whitechapel anarchist paper ‘Freedom’ in 1888:
‘The police do not and cannot protect us from homicidal maniacs. This horrible disease attacks human beings very rarely even under our presens unhealthy social conditions. When it does, helpless people are at the maniac's mercy in spite of our "admirable police." The Star enumerated the other day sixteen recent murders in London, not in-
cluding the Westmintter and Whitechapel affairs, whose perpetrators are still unknown. Facts to shake the most robust faith in the preventive efficacy of a police force.’
* * *
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2655
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 4:19 am: |
|
Just to add a bit more information to the figures for 1889.
The Metropolitan Police Report for 1889 reports that there were 17 murders on their beat - this includes male as well as female victims - and the remarkable fact that not one single murder resulted in a conviction.
I should also like to add to my list of murdered women, Louisa Smith, aged 35, prostitute, who was found mortally wounded in Algeron Road, Lewisham. (Inquest Feb. 1889).
Not quite the East End, but damned close. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2740
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
|
I'm presently working on this, so if anyone wants additional information about the individual crimes please let me know as I've already started.
An example of the format and information is provided.
'MURDER, ATTEMPTED MURDER AND MURDEROUS ATTACKS UPON WOMEN IN THE EAST END OF LONDON IN 1888.
Being a comprehensive account of all such eventualities for that year.
Format:
Victim & Age (‘P’ indicates the victim was a prostitute).
Attacker & Age
Charge/Crime
Location
Weapon
Attack Focus (throat, head, privates etc).
Relationship (between victim & attacker)
Sentence (of court).
February 2
Ms. Potsami (unknown age)
Husband (unknown name & age)
Murder
Indoors/Outdoors. Back-Church Lane.
Shoemaker’s knife
Throat cut
Husband & wife. Two months separation.
Suicide by attacker.' |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2751
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 4:32 pm: |
|
The Old Bailey calender for September 1888.
Murders - 6
Attempted Murders - 4
Manslaughter - 1
Rape/Indecent assault - 7.
That is just one month's worth. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2758
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 1:04 pm: |
|
MURDER, ATTEMPTED MURDER AND MURDEROUS ATTACKS UPON WOMEN IN THE EAST END OF LONDON IN 1888.
Being an account of all such known eventualities for that year, but not including the generally accepted victims of the Whitechapel Murderer.
Format:
Victim & Age (‘P’ indicates the victim was a prostitute).
Attacker & Age
Charge/Crime
Location
Weapon
Attack Focus (throat, head, privates etc).
Relationship (between victim & attacker)
Sentence (of court), when known.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
January 26
Louise Clarke (unknown age)
Unknown
Murder
Indoors
Knife & blunt instrument
Throat cut & head
Stranger crime, burglary
February 2
Ms. Potsami (unknown age)
Husband (unknown name & age)
Murder
Indoors/Outdoors. Back-Church Lane.
Shoemaker’s knife
Throat cut
Husband & wife. Two months separation.
Suicide by attacker.
March 6
Margaret White, 68
James White, 65
Murder
Indoors
Poker
Head
Husband & wife
Death
March 7
Stallion (age unknown)
William Stallion, 53
Attempted murder
Indoors. Dorset Square.
Poker
Head
Husband & Wife
April 3
(P?) Eliza Jane Lowe or Gow (age unknown)
James Brown
Attempted murder
Indoors
Knife (or razor)
Throat cut
Partners. Recently separated
April 9
(P?) Emma Elizabeth Smith, 45
Unknown
Murder
Outdoors. George street, Spitalfields.
Unknown
Head and privates
Unknown
April 13
Esther Hewett (age unknown)
Patrick Sullivan, 45
Violent assault
Outdoors - Brick lane, Whitechapel
Attempted manual strangulation
Stranger
Six months hard labour
(Only the timely intervention of a patrolling PC prevented this woman from being murdered in this very violent and unprovoked assault.)
April 28
Annie Smith, 25
Anthony & Canter (bargemen)
Alleged rape and murder
Outdoors
‘criminally assaulted’
Strangers
Crown dropped the case, ‘insufficient evidence for successful prosecution’, but there is much to this case that needs looking at again.
May 4
Barton (age unknown)
William Barton, 56
Stabbing
Indoors
Knife & fork
Breasts - seven stabs
Husband & wife
May 8
Johanna & Mary Smith (sisters, ages unknown)
William Albert Reynor (a ‘young man’)
Attempted murder
Indoors/Outdoors
Gun & Knife
Upper body
Partner to one sister. Separated 5 months
10 years
May 18
Frances Maria Wright, 60
Burglars
Murder
Indoors
Unknown
Head
Strangers
May 22
(P) Maria Newman (age unknown)
Charles Latham, 30
Murder
Indoors
Knife
Throat cut
Partners
HMP’d
May 22
Maria Wright (or Bright), (age unknown)
Robert Bright, 29
Attempted Murder
Indoors
Plasterer’s hammer and or hatchet
Head, six blows
Husband & wife
(There is some confusion evident in the reporting of the two cases involving ‘Maria Wright’ in the press of the day, but as one case was ‘murder’ and the other ‘attempted murder’ I do believe they are entirely separate incidents.)
June 4
Krell (age unknown)
Barnard Krell (age unknown)
Attempted murder (cutting & wounding)
Unknown
Unknown
Husband & wife
Wife refused to testify, discharged
July 11
Mary Cowen (age unknown)
Henry Baker, alias Welham, 26
Attempted Murder
Outdoors
Knife
Breast and back
Partners, recently separated
August 20
Elizabeth Bartlett, 56
Levi Richard Bartlett, 60
Murder
Indoors
14lb hammer & knife
Head & throat cut
Husband & Wife
Death
(Elizabeth Bartlett was ‘Elizabeth Mears’ before her marriage to Levi.)
August 23
Annie Patterson (age unknown)
Richard Patterson, 28
Attempted Murder
Indoors. Grove Street, Whitechapel
Knife
Face, hands and arm
Husband & Wife
September 12
The Thames Mystery
Parts of murdered woman found in the Thames.
Murder
September 14
Jane Uberfield (or Haberfield) (age unknown)
Thomas James Uberfield, 63 (or Haberfield)
Attempted Murder
Indoors
Knife (razor?)
Throat cut
Father to victim
September 28
Miriam Allison (age unknown)
John Allison, 52
Attempted Murder
Indoors - Outdoors
Chopper
Head and hand
Husband & Wife, recently separated
October
Scotland Yard Torso
Unknown
Murder
Unknown
Unknown
Only torso found
October 17
Sarah Brett, 53
Thomas Onley, 62 & Frank Hall, 20
Attempted murder
Outdoors
Knife
Throat cut
Onley discharged, Hall to Old Bailey
October 26
Sarah Brown, (age unknown)
John Brown, 45
Murder
Indoors
Knife
Unknown
Husband & wife
HMP’d
October 29
Emily Marriot (age unknown)
Nathanial Marriot (age unknown)
Cutting & wounding
Indoors
Knife
Throat & hands
Husband & wife, recently separated
November 16
(P) Ellen Worsfold, 19
CH Fenwick
Cutting & wounding
Indoors
Knife
Stomach
Stranger
November 22
(P) Annie Farmer, 40
Unknown
Attempted murder
Indoors
Knife
Throat cut
Stranger
(This is the scam where the prostitute allegedly cuts her own throat with a blunt knife and conceals the money in her mouth.)
December 11
Lucretia Pembroke, 15
William Atkins, 21
Attempted Murder
Indoors
Knife
Throat cut
No relationship
December 26
(P) Rose Mylett
Unknown
Murder
Outdoors
Cord or similar
Throat, strangulation
Unknown
(I have included this case after finding a report in The Times of December 29 which does appear to verify the fact that Mylett was murdered.) |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 741
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 2:26 pm: |
|
AP--Concerning the above list. Here's a little puzzler from Dr. Fishman's East End 1888. I think I posted this 3 or 4 years ago. I still have never seen a clue to what the heck he is referring to.
"Strangely enough, in the two murders of women before the Ripper's onslaught began, both victims were immigrant Jewesses. The first was perpetrated by a jealous husband; in the second, the body was found with "shocking injuries" in the tunnel between Aldgate East and St. Mary's WHitechapel. It was this setting of everyday violence against women that the Whitechapel murderer found his natural habitat".
Clearly the first Jewish lady was Mrs. Potstami.
But who the heck was the second? Fishman was a guy who read the ELO from cover to cover; it seems unlikely he isn't basing this on something specific. RP |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2769
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 3:32 pm: |
|
I can only think, RP, that Fishman had somehow disconnected his thoughts and he meant the torso that was found with 'shocking injuries' in a sort of tunnel at New Scotland Yard.
That sort of fits, but I'll dwell on what you say, as it is entirely possible that there is one, or more, that I have missed. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2770
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
|
One also supposes that he could have been referring to the murder of Elizabeth Bartlett, definitely murdered indoors but nonetheless a horrific murder with her brains all over the bed, blood up the wall and stabbed several times in the throat.
The killer, her husband, was named Levi Richard Bartlett, so I would guess that the couple were Jewish immigrants who had adopted a more English-sounding surname - a very common practise during the LVP.
He was one of the few murderers of that period who was actually hung, 13th November 1888 at Newgate.
Funnily enough only two murderers from Whitechapel ended up on the gallows in that entire period, and they were both Jews.
Israel Lipski was ’tother, 22nd August 1887, Newgate.
Guess it was a Closedgate for both of ’em. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2562
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 6:20 pm: |
|
Hi Ap,RJ,
I think he was referring to Martha Tabram.He describes her murder as taking place near an "arched dark alley" along the Whitechapel Road-George Yard[now Gunthorpe Street].He calls her Martha Turner and states that"it is still debated whether she was the first victim".Since it was fairly common to change your name if you were Jewish,Fishman may have thought she was a Jewess and had simply changed her name.
Natalie
I know some great great grandparents of mine apparently changed their name from Cohen to something similar, but anglicised, around the 1860"s. |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 742
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 4:12 pm: |
|
Natalie--Hi. Yes it could be. But I think it almost sounds to me like he meant the train tracks, since Aldgate East and St.Mary's were the train stations in 1888, no? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2564
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 5:05 pm: |
|
RJ,
-possibly but in Fishman"s, The Street"s of East london he reproduces a section of Spitalfields,highlighting 16 "landmarks" of Walking Tour 1 and this map shows the spot Martha Tabram was murdered and calls it point "2" and it lies very clearly between Algate East Station and St Mary"s Church.
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2774
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
|
I think you are right here, Natalie:
'View Full Version : Jewish immigrants to London around 1900
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Darren Foreman16-01-2005, 11:52 PM
This is a long shot, a rumour in the family that my Tabram Ancestors where Russian Jews. So far all the ones I have traced have been born in London.
Is there anyway of tracing Russian Jews that came to London around 1900?
I have Tabram's & Tabrahams in my tree from Hoxton/Shoreditch/Bethnal Green, London.
Henry Tabraham 1812, his son ... Henry Tabram 1834 (surname changed for some reason) married a Martha Mosley they had a son called
Alfred Tabram 1861 who Married a Rebecca Neal in Bethnal Green in 1884. Thanks.' |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 743
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
|
Yes, I think you're right, too, Natalie. That does makes a heck of a lot of sense. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2565
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 6:29 pm: |
|
AP,RJ,
I did scan through the Streets of East London book last night and couldnt find any other woman mentioned who it could have been apart from her and with the names AP has found re Russian Jews I think it more than likely Fishman assumed her to be a Jewess.His knowledge of the East End of the time is superb but I wouldnt say he was top notch over the crimes of Jack the Ripper!
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2775
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 11:32 am: |
|
Interesting to note in those figures from 1888 that of the 28 violent incidents reported 17 of them involved one form of relationship or the other between victim and attacker, mostly husband & wife, or partners.
In those 17 violent incidents a knife was the preferred weapon, being used in 12 of the incidents, and of those 12, 9 of the victims had their throats cut.
Looking deeper one can see that 6 of these incidents were the result of a couple separating a short time before the attack, with 5 of these involving a knife attack, 3 of those directed at the victim’s throat.
It is figures like this that must be taken into account when looking at the murder of Elizabeth Stride.
What the figures seem to tell us is that it was much more likely that the killing of Stride was a case of domestic murder. |
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