|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1641
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 8:53 am: | 
|
Guys,
lets not have a b**ch fight!
Newbies are good, the casebook is good, the message board is good, everythings good, agreed?
Cheers
Jenni
ps Glenn, nothing much is ever happening on the watch/diary threads!
"All You Need Is Positivity"
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2823
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:01 am: |
|
Hi Jenni,
Just biding time until Jane's new masterpiece comes along, you know...
Regarding your ps... you don't have to tell me that... 
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 14, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3878
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:15 am: |
|
Jenni, I know of a situation where you don't need positivity....when you're being breathalysed.
Robert (strictly a pedestrian) |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 107
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:17 am: |
|
Dear Bookcase,
I am undertaking a study of Jackie The Ripperer and I would like your help.
Who was it? Was it John Maybrock or the King?
I want to visit Mill Close, where Mandy Kell died - can you tell me where it is and how I can get to see that very hotel room?
Thank you.
PS : I am new to these boards but I have a lot to contribute.
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2824
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:23 am: |
|
Hahahaha, Hutch... 
Good one....
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 112
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:56 am: |
|
Glenn, Paul, Monty : Thank you! My fragile ego is slowly being rebuilt.
Robert : In regards to 'East End Then And Now' - of course! That would make sense! Ramsey obviously knew where he was going then. I should hopefully be getting this book within the week. Can't wait. You are an incredible contact to have, my friend, but if you continue to spell me with 2 'l's I shall be forced to resurrect Kitty.  And I don't mean a cat. 
Jane : "How many books have you go for goodness sake? Can you actually get into your abode or are you forced to climb over tomes every time you go in?" : You really don't know how true that is. Seriously. I DO have boxes of books piled up all over my bedsit, and I DO fall over them at times. Some of these images I have lifted off elsewhere on Casebook and reposted here to be relevant, but a lot are my own. Stewart Evans used to tease me about how few Ripper books I had for a Ripperologist, so now I am snapping up lots of rare ones. My problem is that my entire living area - including bed and kitchenette - is the same size as Stewart's library! Still - 40-odd Ripper books, about half of them rare. Not bad, is it?
"See what a good girl I am, I could have done all those on seperate posts to get my rank up and I didn't Philip..... love yer!" : Yes, Jane, you are definitely a good-time girl.  . 'You'd say anything except yer prayers'.
"you're definitely not going to post any more pics now are you?" : 'Will you?', 'Yes'. 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 69
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:59 am: |
|
Philip,
You made me laugh out loud, thanks.
I'm just putting the finishing touches to Mary's room, looking for a ginger beer bottle, (seriously) I have a feeling that they were ochre earthenware, with a stopper, but not certain. Couldn' t find a picture of the fishermans widow or friend or whatever it was so improvised, think I'll get away with it.
I've decided to go for candlelight and I think I like it, covers a multitude of sins. Do you think I should put Mary asleep in the bed or would that be a bit gross? It would add a lot, but don't want to get sicko here. No way would I do a scene after the event, totally gratutious, but do you think having her just asleep would be okay?
honest answers please.
Jane
xxxxxx |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3199
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 10:07 am: |
|
Hi Jane -
Here's an image of a typical ginger beer bottle:
As for Fisherman's Widow, Adrian Morris concluded many years ago that it was in fact a re-titled print of the painting, A Hopeless Dawn. Here's a image of the painting:
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2825
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 10:10 am: |
|
Jane,
If I am allowed to break in with my opinion, I just want to say that a candle light scene would be terrific. The gruesome photo shows a daylight scene anyway, so a night or evening interpretation with candle light would add a new dimension to the place. I totally concur with this idea. Great choice.
Regarding, her lying asleep there or not, it could really work both ways. Maybe I personally would appreciate the room empty, without her in it, but I can't really explain why. Just my personal feelings, though. Anyway, whatever you choose, I am convinced it will turn out great. I am really looking forward to this.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2826
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 10:14 am: |
|
Thanks for that, Spry.
helpful as always.
As an educated art historian I must say that is a splendid high quality example of 19th century realism or naturalism (with strokes of romanticism). Some would probably call it syrupy, but for someone who appreciates 19th century art, that particular painting reveals quite a lot of talent and skills. I would't mind having it on my wall myself.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 114
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
|
See how Spry is allowed to upload pictures of more than 600x600 pixels?
Ha!
Now then, Jane, this is a bum.
I read your bit about what does a ginger beer bottle look like and I have one of that vintage in my bedsit (which shows my space limitations!) and I straight away took a picture for you - scrolled down the screen - and saw that Spry has already done one!!! Aaarghhh!
This example is 17cm tall and has a diameter of 6cm.
Still - GREAT to see a copy of the picture in Mary's room posted, eh? That is REALLY something! Having studied art at a rudimentary level as part of my History degree, that is a powerful piece! Sure you can buy prints of it on eBay, Glenn? I'll have a look in a minute and e-mail you if so. Have you any more info on it Steve? Makes you wonder if it was hers or McCarthy's - and if so, the social context and mindset that would make such a despairing piece suitable sole decoration in a cheerless environment!
PHILIP
PS : Jane - No matter what you do with the interior it will be fine. I would be very keen to see an expanded view from the angle of the infamous corpse shot though (with or without Mary in bed) taking in the rest of the wall. You do, I take it, have the other shot of the interior from behind the bed, don't you?
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3200
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 10:45 am: |
|
Hi Philip -
Some more discussion on "The Fisherman's Widow" can be found on this thread:
../4921/6676.html"#DEDDCE"> |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 431
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
|
My apologies Philip, I never noticed the spelling. Actually I quite liked Kitty, anyone who can wind so many people up in such a short space of time can't be that bad.  .
Rob |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 72
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:16 am: |
|
Thank you, this is great. I haven't got to start paying research fees, hope I can repay the favour sometime like doing free pics for any books you might be getting together. (Serious offer!)
You might not believe this, but I'm beginning to get worried that I might be psychic after all, cringe cringe.
I picture I actually chose as a substitute for the widow pic is this one. Not a bad guess ay?
The ginger beer bottle is going up on the shelf as we speak, might put something on the table not sure what yet. I might do one version with Mary and one without so people can take their pic or pick so to speak, easy to do, just turn a layer off! Now you see her now you don't!
By the way the light on the picture isn't a ufo landing, it's a reflection of the candle, I just haven't got the lighting sorted yet!
Back to work, nearly there now,
All the best
Jane
xxxxx
ps I got a bit worried when I saw Stephen's name on the board, thought he was turning up to tell me off for starting a fracau earlier! |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 116
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
|
Can undertand your worry Jane - I had one of my postings taken off for saying Lyn used to live in a shack; which she did and had confirmed to me on the boards only the day before! It's always a worry on these boards that you can be misunderstood (I mean, just look at Kitty - HA!)
Have you clicked on the link Steve kindly put up for this picture? It makes me think. If it WAS this picture that Steve has posted, it had only been exhibited for the first time in 1888. Now - apparently, if you went to the exhibition it was possible to buy cheap prints of it. If MJK had been at 13 since the Spring... may she have gone to the exhibition and bought it herself, if it is indeed that picture?
I think this would be a great finding if true - it is a tiny fragment, but it would be a piece of MJK we never knew.
I can't believe we can't even be sure what picture was on her wall though!
Now, Jane - I have done something lovely for you. I have found 2 shots of ginger beer bottles from LONDON sellers which are contemporary with the Ripper. The first is undated, but from Bethnal Green (so that's local!), the second is circa 1890 but is another part of London.
 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1434
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:41 am: |
|
WOW---!!!This thread has moved a tad since I last saw it!
I can see what Monty was getting at----I myself was going to add to Monty"s list the name of the other Robert---but there are so many!!!
I think Glenn has a point about people coming on board with a fresh "take" on things.
But then Monty"s posts are fresh and full of humour as well as a real understanding of the case!
Thanks Phil-----it is ofcourse great too to have your well informed and exciting contributions.
Phil,Philip and Jane---quite remarkable contributors! A Big Thankyou to you all!
And to Glenn its great you are back-you really "pep up" the boards man!
Nats
Natalie
|
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 117
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:42 am: |
|
Something else very important, Jane!!!
I have just found a copy of the painting for sale on eBay.
It is a print made from the painting - and, of course, it is in black and white. The copy for sale on eBay from a US seller is from a collection of old prints, so it will have a very different quality. I have culled and cropped from the ad, and here it is as a PRINT would have looked :
God, we are so brilliant!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 432
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:44 am: |
|
Hi Jane,
We should be paying you for those wonderful images. If you want to send me cash, feel free .
The fire in the picture seems a bit big to me, and I think there were little alcoves either side because of the chimney.
All the best
Rob |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1502
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:57 am: |
|
Oh shut up you Guys,
You make Monty blush!
Jane dont worry bout Spry. He is a puppet Administrator and not the real deal at all.
Im the Geezer you dont want to pi$$ off. A sorta Darth Vader in slippers !
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
|
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 119
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:03 pm: |
|
Monty - how funny it would be if your message were to be taken off!!!
Surely it would be bad news to annoy myself, even though I've just arrived? Reason? Well, I've seen your Papa Lazarou fixation, Monty.
Does or does he not say "Now I am George"?
PHILIP
PS : Jane - did you privately e-mail Rob the Miller's Court recent shot? He's commenting on it but I've not seen it.
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 74
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
|
Philip, you are a love,
I've already stuck two of your first ginger beer bottle in and one of Stephen's, if I put any more it's going to look like an off licence, but I know everyone would be really pleased to see those offerings anyway, they are real gems.
the b/w print is so helpful. I had put the colour one in, desaturating as we speak. Interesting point about where she might have got the print from. If it was the print. Highly speculative but if true I think this might tell us a bit more about Mary. She was said to be a cut above the others in 'her class' (groan) and supposedly had leanings which might indicate at least some connection with the art world, if we believe half of what she told Joe. It might seem fitting that she would have put a print in her room as a token of this. Possibly me just going off on a flight of fancy, but it does seem to fit in with her character. Willing to get slapped down on that one. Fact is there was a print of something in her room.
Almost ready to post the pic, but I want my hubby to have a look at it BEFORE he goes to the pub, otherwise goodness knows what we'll end up with!
Jane |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1504
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:13 pm: |
|
Phil,
It wont be.....Im the only reason this site survives. Im like Lord Lucan at the Claremont....a lure for all ! Ryder knows that !
Papa says 'Hello Dave......want any pegs Daaaaave ?"
And other zany lines !
Monty
PS see the girl on the left??....thats Glenn that is.
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2830
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:24 pm: |
|
Monty,
Actually, I am the one behind Papa Lazarou. He is just blocking my view. They didn't think I looked good enough in a nightie.
The Swedes' sexual charisma is over-rated.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 121
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
|
Just laughed for a full 15 seconds.
Jane - where would the toilet have been in Mary's room? 
I take it her TV will only be a black & white one as well.
Yep - I think, if we find it WAS this picture, it will have proven Mary went to the exhibition and picked up the print herself? Maybe a small remembrance of the loss of her Mr Davies? Unlikely, I know - but fun to contemplate!
Small point, but I was so glad to have noted that of course a print would have been in black & white and not colour.
We have our answer. Jack was Papa Lazarou.
"Of COURSE, Monty, we would LAAAAVE you to join us!" 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 75
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 1:44 pm: |
|
Here it is gang,
Might need a bit more twiddling technically, and I dare say you'll come up with some major boo boos, I used the plan and the contemporary sketch of the room, which I have misplaced. If anyone has it to hand I think it is possible some people haven't seen it and would like to have a look at it if they didn't mind posting it.
It was pointed out at the time that it was too open and made the room look too large, which it did I think, so I've tried to get as tight on this as I could. blooming hard to get that claustrophobic feel though.
I'll have a look at Dutfield's yard next, and that has two loo's I'm not even going to go there....not the loo, I mean, oh you know what I mean.
Here goes, hope it doesn't come out too light this time, it will be a real shame if it does.
love Jane
XXXXXX big kisses this time for all the help!
I left Mary off of the bed, didn't work, felt better this way.
I know the fireplace is wrong, but I didn't have a clue what it would have looked like. I believe that it used to be a kitchen? Maybe I'm wrong.
Please tell me anything that's wrong, I don't mind in the least. It's very easy to correct.
 |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 434
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:05 pm: |
|
WOW
Sorry, but I'm speechless. That is brilliant.
Rob |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1261
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:22 pm: |
|
Hi jane,
I like the shortage of space that your image portrays, there are a few noticable errors,ie. the double head board, a missing chair,the table placed towards the top of the bed. Is that a cupboard or a washstand to the right of the fireplace?.
I would place the room the same size, but the table at the top of the bed, a broken backed chair near the foot of the foot near the partition a disused washstand on the right wall, between the foot of the bed and the cupboard next to the fireplace.
I Congratulate you on the scene, with a few alterations at least in my mind it would be most authentic.
Richard. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1643
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:30 pm: |
|
Jane
Some stunning visual work which has deserved all the praise folks have given it. These reconstructions are impressive in their own right but also give a real feel for the atmosphere of these much discussed places.
I have the feeling that your images are as close as we will ever get to knowing what these locations looked like at the time of the murders.
Please keep up the good work and thanks for all the effort and skill you have put into these artworks
All the best
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3883
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:40 pm: |
|
Jane, I love this. And I think you were right to leave Mary off the bed. Mary has gone.
The candle reflected in the picture is a lovely touch.
Just one point : although I can see the objects, coincidence in a small space of the table, the cupboard behind and the foot of the bed keeps fooling my brain into imagining there's a chair there. Could you shift the table a bit so that the bedpost doesn't appear to form part of the back of a chair?
Robert |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 77
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:42 pm: |
|
Hi Richard,
I must admit I did tidy the room up a bit because it looked a bit too cluttered when I had it arranged in various ways. Did try quite few and only settled on this one because it was easier! The chair is actually tucked in at the end of the bed in front of the cupboard. But of course then where is the wash stand? Good point.
Actually thinking about it, I will do another version with the table moved up as you suggest and see if I can put the chair in and not make it look too untidy.
It might give it another dimension.
It was supposed to be a single bed, I think it got enlarged because I was trying to make the room look smaller, (does that makes sense?)
I've got a horrible feeling if I make it much smaller the room will lose that closed in quality, but I'll have a go.
Thanks for your comments, I know you have a special interest in Mary's room, was thinking of you and Joe when I did this!
All the best Jane
I should be able to get the other version very quickly, if I can find a chair! |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 78
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:46 pm: |
|
Hi All,
Rearranging the room as we speak. I reckon an hour should do it. Thanks for the input. You go blind to it after a while, I wouldn't notice if there was a camel in the room!
Jane |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 34
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:54 pm: |
|
FANTASTIC many thanks and congratulations. I have always had difficulty imagining the room - in the candlelight it looks (almost) homely and cosy. Though heaven forfend that I should ever have had to live there!!
Have you ever thought what it must have been like to, live there afterwards, when (allegedly) there were still bloodstains on the walls!! Didn't an American reporter go there and was introduced to the current tenant?
I think it is the horror of the MJK photographs that makes it difficult to conceive the room as anything but a slaughterhouse. But thanks to you, I can now imagine one sitting on the bed, another on the chair as Joe and Mary ate from the table.
Incidentally, if the room had originally been a kitchen, it would have dated from way back (C18th?). I was going to suggest a kitchen range might have been a feature, but that would be too modern for a house that old and unrestored.
Again, thank you, and heartiest praise.
Phil
|
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1262
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:57 pm: |
|
Hi Jane,
I have always believed the bed was a chairs width away from the pertition, the cupboard was next to the fireplace, and the washstand was on the pertition side of the wall at the foot of the bed , the table was proberly always at the top of the bed to the right, and a chair nearly underneath the window.
I believe your room is most authentic, the fireplace , position of print is fine, i just feel even without the presence of poor Mary, we should have the room shown nearly hundred percent as it would have been viewed by Bowyer on the morning of the 9th, without the gory bits.
Cheers.
Richard. |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 124
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:06 pm: |
|
Yippee Jane!
Lovely!
The comments are, of course, right.
I think this is just before. Mary hasn't GONE; she's out. Fat carroty man has gone. Mary's out in the rain talking to George Hutchinson (I remember it well).
Do you understand just how important your illustrations are, Jane? I am fairly confident they are going to be used in new Ripper books for years to come. Really. And I'll be honoured to say that, in a very small way (and let's be clear about that!) I was involved in it.
Phil : This is an excerpt from the paper I delivered at the Ripper Conference I organised in November : "In 1959 a Mrs Little, speaking to the late Daniel Farson, said her mother had moved into 13 Miller’s Court after the Kelly murder and there was a bloody imprint of a hand on the wall behind a crucifixion painting which could not be washed off or painted over. She went on to say that many people visited 13 Millers Court just to see the bloody handprint. The insinuation is given that this picture belonged to Mary Kelly, yet no reports refer to it. Why was the handprint behind the picture? Why is this handprint not alluded to in any report of the time or afterwards except in this one book? I am sure Mrs Little was confused or making it up. If her mother did indeed move into 13 Millers Court after the event and was plagued by visitors, it would only have been to see the murder scene, and not a bloody handprint."
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 35
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:14 pm: |
|
Jane - forgive me, but I have only just caught up with the UNBELIEVABLY brilliant depictions of the exterior of Miller's Court.
Thanks to all who took part in the discussion from which I have learned loads. But to you Jane, a million thanks would not be enough - you have simply brought the scenes to life in a way I NEVER thought possible.
Please, please, please copyright these. Others are right - they'll be used in books for a long time, and maybe film and TV companies will want to draw in them as well. To my knowledge, NOTHING like this has been attempted before.
Bless you for your imagination, time and efforts. I feel privileged to have been among the first to see these.
well done indeed.
Sincerely, Phil |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
|
Philip,
As far as i know the person who occupied the room after Kelly was a woman called lottie, who lived with her lout of a husband who was a violent character.
Obviously that interview with Mrs Little was Dan Farsons follow up to the imformation he received from 'Farsons guide to the British' where the famous [or infamous] grave spitting incident was reported.
Both of these incidents are absolutely fascinating..
Richard. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1264
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
|
Hi Jane,
I second phils comments about copyright, your artistic talent and crime scene imagination, is a complete new approach to this extremely commercial subject, and will be viewed by everyone who views this site around the world as a exciting breakthrough in ripperology.
Get these into legal copyright as soon as you can, and any future intrest in your work outside this site will be protected.
We are lucky to have you as one of us, and to share these unique pictures on this site, i am lucky to process a great deal of imagination[ which i have my critics ] but not everyone has, and these pictures give a fascinating insight to this compelling series of murders.
Good Luck in any future success.
Richard. |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 480
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:35 pm: |
|
It's wonderful, Jane. You have been given a great talent. |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 79
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:37 pm: |
|
Hi All,
Thanks so much for all your posts, and I am nearly there in the revision. I'm going to have to paint the chair in though, quicker than looking for a pic.
I really do appreciate your kind words about my pics. I think the reason I find them so easy to do, and they are much easier than I imagined they would be, is that you have all helped so much. I do hope that you are able to get something out of them in return.
I have actually been asked by someone to put a book together for publication, but I've been a bit worried about doing it. I have been a commercial artist all my life, but I get the jitters thinking about it. This is a bit different to designing a piece of porcelain or a carriage clock face!
No-one has ever known that a piece was my work before, and now suddenly they do, which is really wierd.
Because of my background I have a very close affinity with the whole JtR saga, being born there, living there when it was much closer to the living conditions than it is today, in a place very much like Miller's Court, mixing with prostitutes all my childhood. I've never really been able to get away from it, so perhaps I should do something.
Anyway, back to that chair, my paints dryng.
thanks again
Jane
|
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 278
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:51 pm: |
|
Hi, Jane-- I TOLD YOU SO !!!!!
Mags
|
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 279
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:55 pm: |
|
For some reason I never thought of the bed having a foot board. If it did, that makes the whole business of how she got onto the bed a lot harder for me to imagine. Hmmmm
Mags
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1437
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
|
Jane,beautiful image very close to the real thing I would think---but here I qualify---only on a day when Mary had the heart to bother with her room.!Because I have an image of something much scruffier,dirtier, with a broken window that hadnt seen a window cleaner ever and an old black overcoat flung across it, the floor all dusty like the police said.And in the wretched fireplace the wonky kettle with a broken spout!
But its a superb reconstruction and I think its how Mary would very much have liked to have had it.
Natsx |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1266
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
I agree with that observation the place would have been a lot more soiled then Janes picture suggests.
It would be much better, if the room could show the outline of a window in prospective to the room size with the shadow of a black overcoat, and of course more detail of a burnt out kettle
But i cannot default Janes work , i know you will agree it is excellent.
Richard. |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 80
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
|
Here is the revised one, Didn't want to do too much on it in case it was still wrong. I wasn't sure how broken the chair was, so I did what I thought looked best.
The bed is still a bit close to the wall, but I can't face moving it unless I really have to.
Didn't even think about the foot board. Anybody really smart and know the answer to that one, was there or wasn't there?
HI Natalie,
I had a quick flick round with a duster for her before I did this, least I could do.
I promise I will get onto Dutfield's yard now.
Group hug
Jane
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3886
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 4:59 pm: |
|
Jane, great again. I don't know whether I'm imagining this, but this seems more sombre, sadder, and literally darker. But I can't actually look at both at once.
One thing that might be interesting, would be to take the various pictures so far posted and try the effect of giving them various frames of various colours.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1267
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
|
Hi Jane,
One of the chairs was described as broken backed, therefore appearence of a high stool, this appears to have been the chair which her clothing was placed on, which was halfway down the bed on the side nearest the partition, therefore the bed would have been at least that width away from the wall.
The Table which blocked entry was therefore up against the bed nearest the door.
The washstand may have originally been against the bottom right hand wall , with the cupboard to its left then the fire place, it is possible that the bed was moved farther out from the partition, then its original position to obtain the second photo shot.
Infact the original room upon entry could have been [ from right upon entering] one table containing innerds, one bed 2ft away from the wall, one washstand to the right of the victims head, one broken backed chair containing victims clothing halfway down the bed close to the partition, one cupboard open, on the right back wall, containing a crust of bread and empty bottles, one fire place with evidence of fire, one melted kettle, one pair of boots laying as if to dry. one chair near the window, and ones mans overcoat acting as a blind.
This is how i portray that hovel, taking every fact i know into account.
Richard.
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1439
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:08 pm: |
|
Yes Jane,Mr Astrakhan would have been"very comfortable" here.[To quote those immortal words].
Beautiful colouring-I didnt realise that a computer could give such subtle and varied hues!
Fantastic work.
Natsx
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1440
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
|
.....and one clay pipe-on the mantelpiece!
Fascinated Jane to hear about the East End as you were growing up.Did anyone ever say who they thought the ripper was?I believe some of the prostitutes probably knew who it was---but maybe wanted to steer clear.Its just a feeling I have
about the case.Although the East End was pretty devastated by the murders and formed vigilante groups and many,if not most tried to help the police to try and catch him I think there were some women who were too scared and lacking confidence in the police to do so -precisely because they were prostitutes.These women knew they were being criticised by officers such as Warren who was telling them to keep off the streets and I think they mostly went to earth during his reign of terror.Any ideas on this?
Best Natsxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 81
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
|
Just a quick follow up,
I am going to do other views of Mary's room, presumably as many angles as it needs to cover all aspects. I might use a 3d programme for that because my perspectives are grim, but it will still look like a continuation of this view ( hopefully). If anyone would like anything in particular please just let me know,
I know everyone thinks it should look dirtier, but I dare not put too much clutter in as it would look a total mess visually. You don't know what's tucked under the bed though, and I bet if we opened a cupboard there would be an avalanche! Maybe I can slip a bit more debris in the other views.
I've got a sudden craving for pie and mash. It's not like it used to be though, the potato is not lumpy enough and the pastry doesn't resemble old knicker elastic. Things aint what they used to be.
All the best
Jane
xxxxx
|
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 126
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
|
Good point about the chair/stool on the other side of the bed, Jane - always wondered how the police got round the other side to take the 2nd photo. All makes sense now.
I must say I like it much more with the table at the top of the bed - just how I have mine in a room the same size!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
