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Lee McLoughlin
Police Constable
Username: Lee
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 8:35 am: |       |
One thing about the theory that Jack hid in the dark after hearing the horse bothers me. After Diemschutz arrived at the gates he knealt down to observe the body "To make sure it wasn't my wife". Why didn't Jack stab him before he rose again? I think this suggests that the killer of Liz Stride had escaped BEFORE Diemschutz horse arrived at the gates and he had local knowledge of an alleyway or some other route of escape.
Thoughts.... |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2286
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 9:00 am: | |
My tip is, that ragged prostitutes were the only ones that he felt forced to -- and dared to -- kill. He didn't murder for the sake of killing in itself, but in order to perform the mutilations.
Serial killers rarely kill anyone outside their chosen category of victims.
I believe Diemscutz would have been of no interest to him.
This is if Stride was a Ripper murder, of course.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3477
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 9:35 am: | |
Hi Lee
I can't see him stabbing Diemschutz. Perhaps if Diemschutz had spotted him and tried to detain him, but not otherwise.
Robert
(Message edited by Robert on November 17, 2004) |
Lee McLoughlin
Police Constable
Username: Lee
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 10:24 am: | |
I can understand what both are you are saying. It's just that I was thinking if the Ripper did hide, as obviously suggested by the diary, how would he have coped with the panic? Would anyone have been calm enough to happily hide in the shadows knowing that you were just seconds away from being caught and obviously hung in those days?
Also another thing that has just come into my mind. If Stride WAS a ripper victim, how long did the hiding take? We know that the ripper was at Mitre sq at a certain time, but we also know that he had to get there from Berner Street. Time wise we have to account for Diemschutz to get of his cart, check the body "to make sure it wasn't my wife" and then depart to the club to raise an alarm. How long would that have taken?
When the surgen arrived Liz Stride still had a weak pulse so she hadn't been attacked that long before. So taking into account the time-scale that we know has to be met, due to the Eddowes murder, is it plausible that the ripper hid? |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 351
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 10:46 am: | |
There is an old saying that bullies are usually cowards. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1093
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 10:49 am: | |
Hi Lee
I would recommend that you don't accept anything that the Diary says as having any true pertinence to the case. Whomever created the Diary, which was certainly not James Maybrick, wrote a fictional treatment of the case which does not correspond to the actual events of 1888.
Best regards
Chris George
(Message edited by chrisg on November 17, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Lee McLoughlin
Police Constable
Username: Lee
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 10:57 am: | |
Hi Chris,
Dont worry about that, I am very convinced that the diary is fake. I was just wondering that if the killer was delayed as much as the events in my post above Stride wasn't a ripper victim. I believe that if Stride is to be added to the ripper's list he had to have escaped before Diemschutz rode up to the gates. |
Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 119
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 10:37 pm: | |
Dear Mr. McLoughlin*:
Sometimes we tend to assume that since 2 of the Canonical 5 were mutilated previously and that despite no definitive evidence of a sexual serial killer being at work here,that Stride had to be mutilated to fit in with the scheme of things.
It is quite possible that the location was as or more important, than our collective assumption of JTR's intention of perpetuating another evisceration upon Mrs. Stride.
Berner Street is quite problematic,thats for sure.
How
* Hoping I have your gender correct !
(Message edited by howard on November 17, 2004)
(Message edited by howard on November 17, 2004) |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 262
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 11:32 pm: | |
Hey Everybody,
Lee...I dont think Ive ever heard that Stride had a weak pulse. Dr. Blackwell arrived at 1:16 am and stated that the deceased had been dead for about 15 or 20 minutes.
As far as the time it would have taken louis to drive up and check the body and go inside would maybe have taken 30 seconds to a minute, maybe.
It is very possible that the killer hid in the yard until he went inside. Im not saying that this is what happened, but the scenario is quite likely.
Glenn...ol' boy....how the hell are you?
Paul |
Lee McLoughlin
Police Constable
Username: Lee
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 7:18 am: | |
Hi Paul,
I'm sure that I read in "Jack the Ripper- the encyclopaedia" that Stride had a weak pulse. I will check tonight and see if I did and if it matches up elsewhere.
Hi Howard,
You are correct and I certianly am Mr rather than Miss, Mrs or Ms!! |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2296
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 8:03 am: | |
Paul, buddy!
I am now unemployed and have a very unsecure financial situation at the moment, so things could be better.
Hope you're OK, though. Long time, no see.
I agree, I think it's quite likely that the killer hid in the yard, like behind the door. But we can only speculate.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3493
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 10:43 am: | |
Hi Lee
Are you thinking of Frances Coles? I seem to remember that PC Thompson said he thought he could feel a weak pulse.
Could be wrong, though.
Robert |
Lee McLoughlin
Police Constable
Username: Lee
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 11:14 am: | |
I could be Robert. I am work at the moment but will check through the books tonight.
Saying that, I am probally confusing the 2 cases.
Lee |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 627
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 11:55 am: | |
I do believe that Diemschutz most probably interrupted the killer. I don't believe he was hiding so much as he effected a clever and narrow escape much as he would do from Mitre Square shortly after.
Andy S.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3495
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 1:55 pm: | |
Lee, I've just quickly checked the Sourcebook. Thompson said that one of Coles's eyelids flickered.
Robert Paul said that he fancied he felt a movement when he touched Nichols's breast.
Robert |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 360
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 5:29 pm: | |
Hi Glenn,
“I am now unemployed and have a very unsecure financial situation at the moment, so things could be better.”
I know that this isn't the place for such a post, so I'll just say that I'm very sorry to hear that Glenn, hope you’ll find something soon!!
All the best!
Frank
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2301
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 5:38 pm: | |
Thanks, Frank. Didn't mean to shout it out here, it just slipped through.
All,
Whether Diemschutz was interrupted or not, is very much a question of who we believe to be Stride's killer, isn't it?
Do we believe in Mr Broad Shoulders as being the killer of Stride? Because if that's the case, I'd say the Diemschuz interruption and discussion regarding the killer's hiding in the yard, is not relevant. If Mr Broad Shoulders was the man, then I would say the time difference between this assault incident and Diemschutz arrival is too long, and the most probable assumption would that he disappeared somewhere between Schwartz ran away and Diemschutz arrived.
If the murderer indeed was someone else, and in that case the Ripper, the thought of the killer hiding in the dark yard is more plausible. In that case, the best time for him to take off would be when Diemscutz went inside to look for his wife and to fetch the others.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 263
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 7:22 pm: | |
Hi Everyone,
Glenn...as Frank stated....this isnt a great place to discuss our financial or personal status, but, I too hope things will get better.
With that said...back to the discussion.
Glenn brings up a good point regarding the two scenarios being different. If broad shoulders killed Stride...and its a good chance he did....then was he the ripper? Maybe..Maybe not. I know Glenn and I and others of course, have discussed that subject at great length and it shouldnt detain us here.
I do however want to throw a little curve ball into the mix. What if Schwartz was wrong about the time...lets say 10 minutes. I dont think he had on a watch and a ten minute guesstimate would be very possible. That would take us up close to 1:00 when Louis pulled up. That would also kind of explain why the couple standing at the board school never saw anyone leave the yard. IF the killer left before Louis pulled up...wouldnt the couple have had a better chance at seeing him than after all the commosion broke out when they found the body?
But if Schwartz was correct about the time being 12:45...and he did see the attack on Stride, then the killer was probably Not Jack the Ripper. I doubt that he would have stood around with the body for 15 minutes and then split. But if this is the case, why did the board school couple not see him? Maybe they did and didnt say anything. Why didnt Fanny see him, if it was 12:45 or so....even though her times that she reported that she was looking out her door are confusing.
My personal opinion is that Deimshutz interrupted the killer and he left as he was going inside. Peace.
Paul |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2302
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 7:58 pm: | |
Hi Paul,
Well, my questions were mostly focused on if it would be probable that Mr Broad Shoulders (if he was the killer) would stay behind and hide in the yard and allow himself to be interrupted by Diemschutz, rather than if it was Jack the Ripper or not (that is another discussion).
I don't think this is likely. Either Mr Broad Shoulders killed Stride after Schwartz left and then himself split, or else a second unknown character (Jack?) disposed her after the assault and got interrupted by Diemschutz.
My point in this whole mess is, that it is unlikely that the two is possible to mix together -- it must be either one.
So therefore, the theories regarding this must be based on who we think the killer was -- Mr Broad Shoulders (who then left shortly after) or an unknown man that got interrupted by Diemschutz (Jack or not) -- since I don't believe Mr Broad Shoulder would stay that long; it seems unlikely that he would be interrupted by the horse and cart.
What do you think? It could be either way, as far as I am concerned. I personally do however sense that Broad Shoulders was her killer (I really don't see her as a Ripper victim), but I am not sure.
Well, the fact that no one saw anything is a problem in both alternatives. No one saw anyone leave and walk down Berner Street after Diemscutz's cart went into the yard either. Fanny Mortimer could have been inside at that very minute and as far as I know we have no accounts from the board school whatsoever anyway.
I don't think Schwartz could have been mistaken about the time to such an extent that it would make a difference.
So it's back to the old problem: what happened after Schwartz left the scene, and before Diemscutz arrived? No witness observations, nothing. And still something did happen.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 256
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 8:42 pm: | |
Hello all,
A few points regarding this interesting conversation:
* Stride was, in fact, alive at the time of her discovery at approx. 1a.m.. According to Edward Spooner's corroborated testimony, blood was still flowing from her neck at the time he checked her at approx. 1:03 (my estimate). This lends significant credence to the idea that Diemschutz interrupted her killer at 1a.m.
* There's no real reason to assume Jack hid behind the gate, though that's a possibility. Quite possibly he slipped out behind Diemschutz's cart as he drove in, and also quite possibly it was Jack that caused his pony to shy.
* Schwartz's first man, in my opinion, was just another drunk upset that Stride refused to service him, and probably had no intent to kill her. Indeed, he didn't even strike her (her postmortem revealed no bruises or such signs). He was attempting to pull her into the street, not push her into the yard. This man probably left immediately after Schwartz, and I find it unlikely he hung about another ten minutes eating cachous and chatting with her, or that she would have allowed this to happen.
* If Man #1 were Stride's killer, he almost certainly wasn't Jack. However, mutilations aside, her murder has much in common with the other Ripper crimes (silenced without violence and 'laid down' as opposed to thrown down; turned to side before her throat was cut). In fact, I'd say her murder gives us a good idea of how Jack operated, as it's most likely a murder stopped in mid-stream.
Of course, Howard Brown is correct in stating that the murderer may have had no intention of mutilating Stride, and Diemschutz's arrival at about the same time she received her fatal would could have been coincidence.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 264
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 9:23 pm: | |
Hi Tom,
I dont think Stride was still alive when Spooner got there. Blood may have been still oozing out of her neck but I believe that was due more to gravity than a heartbeat. Then again....she may have had a slight pulse....It doesnt really matter.
I would love for the scenario of the Ripper coming in after mr broad shoulders and killing Stride to be true. I just cant get past the coincidence of two seperate men...attacking Stride at two different times within a few minutes of each other. Thats too much of a coincidence for me.....even though it would be great if it went down that way.
I do agree with you on all your other points though. I do believe the killer was interrupted by louis or somebody.
THe times of the witnesses are very problematical when trying to piece all of it together. I refer to my point in an earlier post where....in theory...Schwartz was mistaken about the time and it was a lot closer to 1:00 when all the action went down. If that was the case...I think things would fit together a little better. Thats the only scenario that I have for the 15 minute gap....besides your's which is good also.
I hope all that made sense...reading it again I kinda confused myself. Peace
Paul |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2304
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 10:10 pm: | |
Paul,
The Stride murder is probably the most confusing of them all, be sure of that.
Tom,
Although I am not so sure about Stride being a Ripper victim, I think you make a lot of good points.
It is not impossible for the blood to flow after fifteen minutes, as far as I've read, and as Paul says there are a few factors to consider that influences this.
But I agree on, that if Mr Broad Shoulders was her killer -- which I also am quite doubtful about in many respects -- he was certainly not Jack the Ripper.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1311
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 6:05 am: | |
Hi All,
It may not have been coincidence, if two men encountered and ill-treated Stride within minutes.
If Jack was lurking nearby, he could have seen the ruffian man-handling Stride (and Schwartz pushing off), and decided to take full advantage of the situation to go in for the kill, after offering her some assistance.
Love,
Caz
X |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2306
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 6:17 am: | |
Diana,
You're right, of course. Not impossible at all.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Lee McLoughlin
Police Constable
Username: Lee
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 7:23 am: | |
Hi Caroline,
I was thinking about that quite recently. If Stride was a ripper victim then Jack must have been coming back from somewhere or on his way somewhere. ie: Coming back from a days work or going to the Spitalfields area to find a new victim. (William Bury or George Hutchinson anyone?)
Is it very plausible that Jack just happened to be passing by when he saw an arguement, went to help the woman and then kill her? Then after he killed her headed onto Mitre Square to Eddowes?
Also considering that there were plenty of people around the area whether in the street or in a very nearby club, whould the real Ripper have taken such a huge risk? When you think about the other locations, they were all very quiet and quite isolated.
I have never really believed that Stride was a ripper victim but her inclusion has, in my opinion, always added a bit of weight to the "2-men" arguement. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2307
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 8:09 am: | |
Caz,
Sorry, don't tell me why I called you Diana, but my post above was naturally directed to you.
Ha! So much for drinking French brandy the night before...
(I'm sorry, AP... yes, French, not Spanish...) 
Lee,
I agree with everything you say here. Good stuff.
The "second helper" theory is not by any means new -- I myself used to stress that one quite strongly a couple of years ago (although it met with quite a lot of resistance from people at the time), and I still believe it to be a relevant one -- if Stride was a Ripper victim.
Like you, her inclusion is also for me based on this "2-men" theory of someone assisting and then killing her after Schwartz ran away and Broad Shoulders left the scene.
As you say, the conduct of Mr Broad Shoulder is not in any way consistent with the Ripper, who performed his crimes in a very subtle and quiet way, very careful not to be seen in action.
Then, of course there is always a possibility that Stride was in fact killed by Broad Shoulders in aclient--prostitute or pimp--prostitute dispute (I could also consider Michael Kidney in this context, although I am not sure regarding his alibi).
Also, interesting that you mention Bury; I have always found him interesting and Beadle's arguments for his candidacy is by far NOT among the worst I have encountered in connection with the Ripper, on the contrary.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
kelpie
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 6:21 am: | |
^Hi there,
I may be wrong, but I remember to have read, that Diemschütz at first did not inspect the body thoroughly, but assumed it was his wife. Then he brought the pony and cart to the stable (which will have taken a few minutes (believe me- you have to get all the tack off - at least I hope for the pony that he did this) - enough for jack to escape unseen and the easy way) and then on Diemschütz way back he had a closer look at the body - and recognized what he saw!
Makes perfect sense to me - for both Diemschütz and the Ripper´s reaction. He just did not have to attack Diemschütz because he was never near to being deteacted.
(Sorry if my language is strange, I´m no native speaker...) |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 6:28 pm: | |
"Sometimes we tend to assume that since 2 of the Canonical 5 were mutilated previously and that despite no definitive evidence of a sexual serial killer being at work here,that Stride had to be mutilated to fit in with the scheme of things."
>>100% definitive evidence of sexual serial murder was found on Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. That's four, not two. This evidence was murder together with mutilation of the sexual organs.
David
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2311
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 10:27 am: | |
Radka,
There is no "100% definite evidence" proving that the Kelly murder was part of a series. It could be, but saying there is conclusive proof of this is a complete error.
So, in fact, they are neither two or four -- they are actually three.
All the best
G, Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on November 19, 2004)
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2312
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 10:30 am: | |
Kelpie,
As far as I know, the horse and cart had begun to drive into the yard -- Diemschutz discovered the body while sitting on his cart because of his horse sheered away from it.
Then he jumped down and inspected the body (thinking it could be his wife), as you say, but as far as I know he had already passed -- or was passing -- the gates of the yard.
I could be wrong here, but this is what I remember.
All the best
G, Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on November 19, 2004)
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1558
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 10:41 am: | |
At the inquest, Diemschutz said:
I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open. It was rather dark there. All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object. I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could only get sufficient light to see that there was some figure there. I could tell from the dress that it was the figure of a woman.
[Coroner] You did not disturb it? - No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
I don't think we can deduce from this with any degree of certainty that Diemschutz automatically assumed that the prone figure lying in the dark was his wife. All he says is that he went into the club and asked where she was. It is a parge leap to go from that to assuming that he thought the body in the yard was his wife's
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1559
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 10:42 am: | |
At the inquest, Diemschutz said:
I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open. It was rather dark there. All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object. I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could only get sufficient light to see that there was some figure there. I could tell from the dress that it was the figure of a woman.
[Coroner] You did not disturb it? - No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
I don't think we can deduce from this with any degree of certainty that Diemschutz automatically assumed that the prone figure lying in the dark was his wife. All he says is that he went into the club and asked where she was. It is a large leap to go from that to assuming that he thought the body in the yard was his wife's
Chris |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2313
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 10:59 am: | |
That's what I thought! He had already passed through the gates to the yard when he discovered the body.
Well, Chris, as far as I know he went into the club in order to check out if his wife was inside there (since it probably was too dark for him to identify the body with certainty). Why else would he do that directly after having discovered a body (drunk or dead) on the ground?
I have actually read somewhere that he thought it MIGHT be his wife, but he couldn't see good enough in order to confirm it and therefore went into the club to ask for her.
All the best
G, Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on November 19, 2004)
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 355
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 1:07 pm: | |
One point in favor of broad shoulders. His description by Schwartz tallied almost exactly with the description given by Lawende who saw Eddowes with a man less than an hour later. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2315
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 1:26 pm: | |
Diana,
I am afraid I fail to see the great similarities between the descriptions delivered by Schwartz and Lawende.
The only point of interest is the peaked cap, but besides that the rest of the details are completely useless as references; brown moustache and dark clothes could fit thousands of men in East End. Besides, Lawende's probably most important detail was the red neckerchief -- an item that would have stood out rather well from the dark clothes, and it's not mentioned by Schwartz.
Witness descriptions -- especially those based on encounters at night -- can't be used as a credible link in an investigation (unless they are extraordinary and very detailed), because they are in general completely unreliable. I would seriously advice against it.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 307
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 3:16 pm: | |
David,
Read Howard's sentence again: "Sometimes we tend to assume that since 2 of the Canonical 5 were mutilated previously and that despite no definitive evidence of a sexual serial killer being at work here,that Stride had to be mutilated to fit in with the scheme of things."
Clearly he was saying that because the two canonical murders prior to Stride's were that of a serial sexual killer Stride's is sometimes dismissed from the canon because she was not mutilated. He was only talking about the two murders before Stride and not the total number attributed to JtR.
And you get mad because people don't read your thread carefully enough? Granted, the adverb is awkwardly placed, but the sense was readily apparent.
Don. |
Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 120
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 4:40 pm: | |
Thanks Don. I appreciate the support.
However,David is not mistaken in how he took my message.
I am of the school of thought that believes that the WM were not necessarily the work of an SSK.
Of course,90 percent or better of murders which involve destruction of a females' sexual organs ARE the work of a SSK.
However,in almost every SSK murder or murders,organs aren't taken away. The classification of the murders, whether by a psychotic,a SSK, an occultist-Satanist, or even perhaps a revenge motive, is what remains to be proven.
Again,thanks Donald...It was my gaffe in my grammar that caused the misunderstanding.
Posted by Caroline Anne Morris on Friday,
Hi All,
It may not have been coincidence, if two men encountered and
ill-treated Stride within minutes.
If Jack was lurking nearby, he could have seen the ruffian
man-handling Stride (and Schwartz pushing off), and decided to take
full advantage of the situation to go in for the kill, after offering
her some assistance.
I agree,gorgeous one, I agree.
Take a second and contemplate this...
Stride is attacked by Mr.Wonderful....He sees Schwartz...utters an epithet [ which by the way,would have told Schwartz THAT VERY SECOND what ethnicity this attacker was... but that is for another time and another thread..] and goes down Berner in Izzy's direction...
Here's the point: If Pipe Man [ for me,the Ripper...],didn't do what Caz suggests....what the hell did Stride just stand there for? If she was attacked,why didn't she run away...or at least,go into the OPEN Socialist Club a few feet away and tell someone what had just happened or at very least, stay inside the Club? Common sense dictates that Stride would have done either of these things UNLESS of course that Caz' scenario is as you say,spot on, and that Pipe Man made his move...
(Message edited by howard on November 19, 2004) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2318
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 5:19 pm: | |
Hi Howard,
Unfortunately you are wrong when you say that organs are not taken away in the context of sexual serial killers. On the contrary, it is quite common in connection with disorganized sexual serial killers -- they are mostly taken away for throphee purposes or to be subjected to cannibalism.
You can look it up in ever crime reference book, and see that it's actually a rather common trait.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 308
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 5:26 pm: | |
Howard,
Okay. I can usually navigate successfully the treacherous shoals of grammer, but whether Saucy Jack was a psychopath, sociopath, SSK, BPOE, IOOF, organized, disorganized, or merely mildly muddled I leave to others. I simply assume he was not blessed with a sound mind in a sound body and proceed from there.
Don. |
Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 121
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 5:58 pm: | |
I agree Donald....again, it was my error and I'm sorry !
Glenn...my friend......
While the majority of SSK's do in fact take souvenirs with them,they aren't organs such as hearts,kidneys,uteri,and such... You are correct in that they ordinarily do take trophies...just like a ritualist killer would be likely to do.
It really makes no difference if I was correct in my assumption that JTR was a ritualist,because I am certain that he derived some sort of sexual gratification in his work.
I recognize that I am, as always, implying an additional aspect to a series of crimes that does have all the hallmarks of a sexual serial killing. However,I take the risk factors involved at Mitre Square and at Hanbury Street to be of a specific intent in taking the organs obtained at those particular kills and that they may be of paramount importance.
Considering that most ssk's today don't run the risks that JTR did if in fact they remove organs [ mostly indoors ] and keep them for some reason or another, I feel that simply classifying the series of murders as those done in Whitechapel, by a ssk, may be judgmental observations that depend on either statistics and comparisons done with other indoor and safer environments.
Besides....its always good to get a reply from my good drinking buddy...
....and now we drink  |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 567
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 8:01 pm: | |
Below is a combination of a couple of posts I made on January 14, 2004 under the Liz Stride - The Murder thread. Basically, from the given testimonies, a time line can be created with respect to the formation of "blood clot" in the Stride case. And, if the information from the Crime Library article I mention is accurate, then this "blood clot" time line would suggest that Liz had her throat cut just about the time the pony cart arrived.
Anyway, thought this might be of interest.
- Jeff
I've recently read at the website Crime Library (under the Lizzie Borden case) some information concerning blood clotting. Apparently, blood will usually clot 5-15 min after a murder, but sometimes in especially violent deaths, something happens and the blood never clots. There must be some quick release addrenalin response or something that interferes with the clotting of the blood, or something like that. Anyway, this is rare, but when it does occur the blood will stay liquid for hours.
Anyway, with Liz Stride we have a bit of a time line concerning the clotting of the blood.
Diemshutz says he passed the bakers shop on the corner of Berner street at 1 (by the clock at the shop). It's not entirely clear if he notes this as he gets to the club (before finding the body), or as he goes looking for the police after finding the body.
A man (Spooner) arrives on the scene when being told of the murder, and touches Strides chin (but says he did not move the position of the head) and notices the blood is still flowing from the wound (so not clot yet). We don't know how much time has passed since the discovery of the body, but it doesn't appear to be much, a few minutes.
Const. Lamb states he arrives shortly before 1, presumably his time is based upon a different clock than that of Deimshutz) and states there is some slightly congealed blood near the body, the rest is still liquid.
Dr. Blackwell is the first doctor to arrive, and he checks his watch upon his arrival and notes the time is 1:16 am. Const. Lamb estimated Blackwells arrival as to be about 12 or so minutes after he arrived, which would put Const. Lamb's arrival at 1:04 ish, or shortly after 1, fitting better with the testimony of Deimshutz (but the different clocks makes this hard to figure out).
Anyway, what we seem to have is the blood has reached the "clotting" stage with Dr. Blackwell, possibly starting around Const. Lamb's arrival. The normal range of time is between 5-15 minutes. Blackwell seems to have arrived 16 minutes after the body was found, and Const. Lamb arrived 12 or so minutes earlier.
Notice that these times (Const. Lamb's arrival and Dr. Blackwell's arrival) roughly correspond to the earliest and latestest window for normal clotting (1:04 and 1:16 am are close to 5 and 15 min after 1 am, which is Deimshutz's testified discovery time).
These both estimate the murder to have occured just about the time Deimshutz discovered the body. In other words, the most common interruption theory is that the killer flees when the pony cart arrives, and the blood clotting evidence does seem to fit that theory.
Remember, however, the blood clotting evidence does not in any way indicate that whoever killed Stride intended to mutilate her! All the blood clotting evidence suggests is that she was probably killed some 5-15 minutes prior to the formation of the clot.
Now, a further caveat should be noted. I'm no expert in blood clotting. It could be that the 5-15 minutes is based upon first signs of clot, which means the murder would be estimated as 5-15 minutes prior to Const. Lamb's arrival (so roughly between 12:50 and 1:00). Second, these times are the range for the usual case, not all individual cases will fall within this time window. It's also possible that Stride was a "slow clotter", and we don't know what percentage of cases fall outside this range.
Regardless, what's important is that from what little evidence we do have, the notion that Stride was murdered just as Deimshutz arrived is not in conflict with the time course of the testimony concerning the blood clot formation.
One other thing. The time of Schwartz's sighting is often quoted as 12:45. However, under the dissertations section (Elizabeth Stride: Her Killer and Time of Death
Dave Yost) the editors note includes the police summary report of his testimony. This report seems to indicate that 12:45 corresponds to when Schwartz turned onto Berner Street from Commercial road, or more probable, that he noted the time on commercial road, turned onto Berner Street, walked down this towards home and then witnessed the attack on Stride.
The distance from commercial street is not great, so it's not like we can make up a full 15 mins, but some time must have passed. In other words, Schwartz's sighting may have occured between 12:45 and 1 am; with the time based upon some clock in Commercial street.
Regardless even with a full 15 minutes before the body is found, the different estimates in times is already within a window that could reflect nothing more than "different clocks, and the expected errors of time estimation".
Still, notice how this still puts things close to the earliest time window based upon blod clotting times, suggested in the "further caveat" section, but still not out of an "acceptable margin of error" for even the latest time of 1 am.
Strides case is so full of this kind of "works all ways" evidence.
- Jeff
|
Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 126
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 8:10 pm: | |
Thanks very much for the reposting,Mr.Hamm.
"There must be some quick release addrenalin response or something that interferes with the clotting of the blood, or something like that. Anyway, this is rare, but when it does occur the blood will stay liquid for hours."
Not being a medical man,wouldn't a fair to middlin' level of alcohol prevent clotting ? Stride probably had her normal intake on that night...
Thanks..
How |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2324
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 9:33 pm: | |
Hi Howard, my friend.
Actually, yes, also modern sexual serial killers do take and remove organs, although we are then mostly talking about so called disorganized ones, since the organ taking is a part of a bizarre behaviour. We have a number of well known serial killers who did this and in many cases it is connected with cannibalism. Jeffrey Dahmer is one very famous example, but there are numerous others.
Organ taking doesen't necessarily have to imply black magic rituals -- and they seldom do.
It's true the organs, as well as the mutilations were probably of paramount importance, but from a personal, sexual point of view. At least that is often the case.
However, for sexual psychopaths/orgainized it is more common to take a bit of clothing or some other personal belongings rather than organs.
"It really makes no difference if I was correct in my assumption that JTR was a ritualist,because I am certain that he derived some sort of sexual gratification in his work."
I think we in some way are in agreement here. really.
Sexual serial killers of disorganized disposition often displays elements of ritualism in their crimes. So in many respects sexual driving forces and ritualism can go hand in hand.
All the best.
G, Sweden
Save a pint for me, Howie.
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 257
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 10:07 pm: | |
Hello all,
I was just skimming the above posts. Again, I find this a very interesting topic. A few observations:
*Jeff Hamm is correct in stating that Schwartz turned into Berner Street at 12:45, thus putting his sighting at approximately 12:48. This then leaves room for the evidence of James Brown, who stated he passed a couple talking in Berner Street at approx. 12:45. This MAY ( repeat MAY) have been Pipeman speaking with Stride. Brown was not at all good in the details. Purely speculative, but Brown's testimony should not be discarded on the notion that it conflicts with Schwartz's. It doesn't. Brown overheard Stride telling a man 'Not tonight, some other night'. For this reason I believe, a few minutes later, she also turned down Schwartz's Man #1, who was not happy with this and became a bit aggressive. But I do not believe this man was her murderer.
* The point is often discussed that it's too much to ask that Stride was 'attacked' in the same spot within 15 minutes by two different men. However, although he was physical and abrupt, Man #1 did not 'attack' Stride, per se. As I've noted, he left no bruises on her, which even a good strong hold could do. She had a gimp leg, so her being 'thrown down' may have been nothing more than her being caught off balance and falling down when he attempted to pull her along with him. He was an angry, aggressive man, and I imagine STride and other women of her ilk came across such men almost nightly, and more than once in the same night on occasion. Her killer does not appear to have been angry or aggressive - there was no sign of a struggle, she was not tossed about, and he had the sense to turn her away from him when he slit her throat. My thoughts are that had this one anonymous man not been quite so horny or drunk that evening, many more people today would be able to accept Stride as a Ripper victim.
* As for the idea that Man #1 and Man #2 (Pipeman) were working in tandem, this seems doubtful as Schwartz followed Man #1 down Berner Street and they were walking TOWARDS Man #2, not away from him, as would have been the case if they'd spotted Stride and Man #1 took off in pursuit while Man #2 watched.
* It is often written that Schwartz saw Man #2 come out of the beer house. He did not. And certain evidence indicates the beer house (it was not a pub) was closed by 12:45a.m.
* Jeff Hamm mentions that Dr. Blackwell was the first doctor on scene at 1:16, however his assistant, Dr. Johnston, arrived earlier, about 5 minutes after Edward Spooner.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 265
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 11:02 pm: | |
Hey Everybody,
Hello Tom,
Hows this scenario....James Brown didnt see anyone talking to Stride because he saw the "boardschool couple" that was seen by Fanny Mortimer. The couple was standing in the thoroughfare where Fairclough meets Berner st.
As far as the Pipeman being the guy that James Brown saw....surely Brown would have noticed the man being almost 6 feet tall.
It is a very remote chance that the pipeman was ever talking to a woman at the board school.
As Glenn pointed out, in reference to the witnesses discriptions of the suspect, sometimes eyewitness testimony should be taken with a grain of salt. I do however disagree with the importance of the two descriptions. Schwartz could have easily missed the red neckerchief..
It was VERY DARK. Red is almost black in the dark. I do think that the two descriptions are very similiar and could in fact be the same man. Sorry Glenn ol' boy. Peace
Paul |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2326
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 7:29 am: | |
Yes, Paul,
But if we discount the red neckerchief, what have we got? Nothing, besides the peaked cap (which was a very common head gear among the workíng class). Just dark clothes (some sort of jacket and trousers; black or dark grey, observed in darkness at night!) and moustache (which practically EVERYBODY had in those days).
So no, sorry Paul. It ain't just enough saying that two witness descriptions are similar when they only consist of "dark jacket and trousers" and things like that.
You must also look at what the descriptions really say. And besides the red neckerchief which were seen on one of them they tell us -- nothing.
However, if there were an item of clothing that was unusual and special, and different sightings corroborated this, it would be another question.
But the descriptions above are totally useless, because they fit hundreds if not thousands of men in East End.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 364
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 12:19 pm: | |
Hi Tom,
“* As for the idea that Man #1 and Man #2 (Pipeman) were working in tandem, this seems doubtful as Schwartz followed Man #1 down Berner Street and they were walking TOWARDS Man #2, not away from him, as would have been the case if they'd spotted Stride and Man #1 took off in pursuit while Man #2 watched.”
The police report containing information about Schwartz’ sighting doesn’t say Schwartz was following Stride’s assaulter, it just reads: “… on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.”
If I remember well it was The Star that said Man #1 had walked some distance ahead of Schwartz in Berner Street. As there were some more significant discrepancies between the Star story and the official report I think the Star account must be treated with caution.
By the way, I’m inclined to think that Broad Shoulders and Pipeman were not a team.
All the best,
Frank
|
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 365
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 12:35 pm: | |
Hey Paul,
I completely agree with Glenn on the witness descriptions. Only if there would have been an item of clothing or some other feature that was unusual and conspicuous, and this was corroborated by different witness descriptions, the description regarding that specific item or feature could be taken seriously.
All the best,
Frank
 |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 6:32 pm: | |
Mr. Souden wrote:
"And you get mad because people don't read your thread carefully enough? Granted, the adverb is awkwardly placed, but the sense was readily apparent."
Why don't you like me, Mr. Souden? What have I done to you so bad? You've been picking on me for my personality for so long. What can I do to make it up to you? How can I make amends?
David
|
kelpie
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 1:33 pm: | |
Hi,
I don´t want to stress this point and maybe everybody knows about it and I just do not: What happend to the cart and pony??? This is not like parking a car...
IF D. stabled the pony right after passing the body first time this has an effect on the timeline. It sounds so odd to me that he should have left a valuable property that could walk away on it´s own legs unattended.
What do you think? |
|
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