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Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 258
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 8:53 pm: |       |
Hello all,
Paul Jackson writes: Hows this scenario....James Brown didnt see anyone talking to Stride because he saw the "boardschool couple" that was seen by Fanny Mortimer. The couple was standing in the thoroughfare where Fairclough meets Berner st.
As far as the Pipeman being the guy that James Brown saw....surely Brown would have noticed the man being almost 6 feet tall.
It is a very remote chance that the pipeman was ever talking to a woman at the board school.
As Glenn pointed out, in reference to the witnesses discriptions of the suspect, sometimes eyewitness testimony should be taken with a grain of salt. I do however disagree with the importance of the two descriptions. Schwartz could have easily missed the red neckerchief..
It was VERY DARK. Red is almost black in the dark. I do think that the two descriptions are very similiar and could in fact be the same man. Sorry Glenn ol' boy. Peace
Paul, you are willing to accept that Schwartz, who got a far better view of Stride’s assailant than any other reliable witness got of their respective suspect, would miss the red handkerchief, but that Brown – who couldn’t even say if his man wore a hat or not – could not be mistaken as to height? Keep in mind that Brown was walking along the curb, so he was not at even keel with the couple who were standing on the pavement. Also remember that his sighting was within ten to fifteen minutes of PC Smith’s sighting of Liz with a man at the same spot. The Mortimer thing has been thrown around for years, but we don’t know if such a couple ever existed, though we DO have reason to doubt there was such a couple in the vicinity at the time Mortimer suggests, and we DO know that Brown, and not Mortimer, were called to testify at the inquest. I agree that as to Schwartz and Lawende’s descriptions there is no reason to accept they were of the same man.
Frank writes: The police report containing information about Schwartz’ sighting doesn’t say Schwartz was following Stride’s assaulter, it just reads: “… on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.”
If I remember well it was The Star that said Man #1 had walked some distance ahead of Schwartz in Berner Street. As there were some more significant discrepancies between the Star story and the official report I think the Star account must be treated with caution.
Frank, in terms of where Man #1 was approaching from, there is no discrepancy between the two reports. Swanson’s version, sadly, is lacking in detail. There are indeed serious problems with the Star report, and I disagree with the authors of the A-Z who attribute this to poor translation; I believe it was intentional on the part of the reporter and, indeed, may have been suggested by the police. I can expound on this theory if you’d like. But many of the details do match, so it’s wise to consider the minor details of their story (i.e. the direction Man #1 approached from, that he was ‘tipsy’, etc). The fact that the police saw no real reason to accept the two as a team might suggest Man #1 really DIDN’T approach from the direction in which Man #2 was standing, as the Star states. As there’s no source, official or otherwise, that states Man #2 approached from the vicinity of Man #1, then this would be the most dangerous variation to endorse.
Frank writes: By the way, I’m inclined to think that Broad Shoulders and Pipeman were not a team.
On this we agree, though it is an interesting possibility to consider, is it not?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
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Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 568
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 2:10 pm: | |
Hi Howard,
I have no idea what influence alcohol would have on the blood clotting time line. I'm not a medical man either. I would think, however, that there's enough "error" in the estimated times people report, that any influence of drinking would still keep the timeline within an acceptable range. Meaning, it would still fit with Stride being killed about the time the pony arrives.
Remember, all this information allows us to conclude is that "pony interruptus" type theories are not inconsistent with the blood clotting data. Because of the variation that this time line includes, neither is it inconsistent with Stride being killed a few minutes before the pony arrives, which would mean the killer simply left and did not perform any mutilations; though he may have had time to.
- Jeff |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 569
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 2:17 pm: | |
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the pointer to Dr. Johnson. I'll have to look around for any information and/or testimony he gives. Given the fairly smooth time line concerning the blood clotting that seems to be emerging serendipidously, I hope that anything he says isn't going to put a spanner in the works. It would be nice to have some consistency in the stated forensic data! ha!
- Jeff |
Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 132
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 2:21 pm: | |
Thanks Jeff for that assessment....
May I be so bold as to change that "pony interruptus' to a new one?
...like, Coltus Interruptus ? |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 571
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 2:26 pm: | |
Hi Howard,
I wish I had thought of that! ha! I'm still chuckling, nicely done.
- Jeff |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 8:51 pm: | |
Mr. Andersson,
I am sorry to hear that you are unemployed. I hope that you will find a new job very soon. One way to avoid unemployment is to have your own business. I find it a source of satisfaction in itself to be my own boss.
Good luck,
David
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2342
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 5:49 am: | |
Kelpie,
I am not sure I see why the point you make here should be of any real significance, unless I've missed something.
I mean, there are enough mysteries as it is in this case, right?
We have no clue of what happened to the cart and pony, since they are not mentioned any further in the police documentation, so obviously the police didn't find the matter of any vast importance.
This is the tricky part with dealing with cases of historical nature, namely for us to understand things that were quite common at the times.
I am not sure about the value of a horse and cart in East End seen in this context, and I am not sure if stealing a horse a cart would be like stealing a car in the middle of a densed populated area -- it is a bit slow and makes some noise as well. I just guess Diemschutz found it more important to raise alarm about the body and didn't care about other stuff.
David,
Thank you.
Although the reason for my unemployment and the mess I am in, is the fact that I had my own business, which I had to close down because the taxes and costs ruined me. You see, having your own business in Sweden is a complete suicide mission and is unfortunately not treated by the authorities in the same positive way it is in USA.
Instead of being encouraged to open up your own business, the authorities here tries to pull the rug away under your feet from day one, with high fees, enormous extra tax rates, complicated administrative rules and no help from the bank... etc.
If there is something we could learn in Sweden from the US, it is how we treat the entrepeneurs.
Instead, many fail in their attempts and have to close down and -- like myself -- finally ends up at the Social Services'.
All the best
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 312
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 12:40 pm: | |
Kelpie,
You make an interesting point. I would not be concerned with the pony and cart being stolen (in the crowded streets it would have been a true low-speed chase) or the pony wandering away (it would have used to long stoppages), but just when the pony and rig were moved and to where is worth pondering.
It would certainly seem that the rig would only be in the way as more and more people gathered around Stride's body, so it must have been moved somewhere. Most likely it was taken, at least temporarily, further into the yard. The question, though, is when and by whom and as you point out that does have implications for the timeline and the activity at the yard entrance. Hmmmm?
Don. |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 574
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 2:36 pm: | |
Hi,
Tom pointed out a Dr. Johnson arrived prior to Dr. Blackwell. I've checked the Stride inquest pages, and Johnson testifies that when he examined Stride, the blood was no longer flowing from the throat wound, and the blood on the ground was "all clotted".
He did not have a watch, but indicated he arrived 3 or 4 minutes prior to Dr. Blackwell. And, his report of "all clotted" fits with Dr. Blackwell's report of the same. And, given the relative closeness in time, and the expected variations in blood clotting times, etc, his testimony fits well enough (meaning, "coltus interruptus" still works - but of course so do other explanations. I'm not trying to say this is the only interpretation, but rather, we can't rule it out).
- Jeff |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 362
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 10:28 am: | |
I just thought of something else related to Diemschutz arrival. There has been a lot of debate about how JTR could have seen to do the mutilations after dark. There have been discussions of lanterns, proximity of streetlamps, and in the case of Stride light escaping from the windows and doors of the working mans club. We know that Jack didnt have a light of any kind when Diemschutz arrived or Diemschutz would have seen it. Instead all that Diemschutz was able to perceive was a dark lump of the feminine gender. He couldnt even tell if it was his wife or not, and he didnt see the fatal wound. With that kind of light Jack would have had to operate almost totally by touch if he were to successfully mutilate Stride (I know he never got that far, but the theory is that he was preparing to mutilate Stride when Diemschutz interrupted him.) I suppose its possible that Jack had a lantern and he heard Diemschutz undoing the gate in time to douse it. If he didnt use a lantern then we're left with the problem of how he found Eddowes kidney, etc. |
D. radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 10:44 pm: | |
Glenn,
I think you are right about entreprenourial matters. In U.S. we have too little socialism, in Sweden you have too much.
Good luck,
David
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1549
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 3:04 pm: | |
glenn
so sorry to hear about your horrors! Good luck Boy!!!
I still think that this thread should somehow combine with the
'Could Diemschutz thread above there are way too many overlaps here especially with the blood flow thing etc.
Cheers
Suzi |
Lindsey Millar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 80
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 10:55 pm: | |
Yes, Glenn,
Truly sad to hear about your unemployment. May God see bigger things for you!
Truly,bestest,
Lyn |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1550
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 5:13 pm: | |
Glenn
Am sure you will eh! Hey get into that festive stuff eh and just
suzi x |
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