| Author |
Message |
    
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 57
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:12 pm: |       |
Hi Everyone,
Glenn and I and Several others were carrying on a discussion about how JTR or "whoever killed Stride" made the escape out of Dutfields yrd when there were several people hanging around...going in and out of the club, standing at their front door, etc. Just wondering about possible scenarios and how he could have pulled this off. Best Regards.
Paul
Please, lets not turn this into a "who killed Stride thread" Thanks |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 467
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:19 am: | |
I would like to see a plan of Dutfield's Yard if one exists (which I rather doubt). I think it would have been too risky for the killer to escape by the main entrance to the Yard. I think there must have been another way out. The Yard was very dark. There were no people "going in and out" of the club by way of the side door onto the Yard at the time of the murder. I suspect he slipped out by some back way.
Andy S. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1240
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:52 am: | |
G'day Andy,
I haven't lost any sleep over the issue, but I've thought that the most likely answer was that he hid behind the gate until Diemschutz ran into the club. He was just lucky he wasn't caught, or seen escaping.
Another possibility is that he just hid further back in the dark yard until it was safe to escape. There was a time when no one was at the exit.
LEANNE
(Message edited by Leanne on March 17, 2004) |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 58
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:53 am: | |
Andrew,
From 12:15 till 1:00 several people were going
"in and out" of the club. Morris Eagle walked hi girl home and returned at about 12:40, William West..who was the overseer of the printing office behind the club went from the club, through the yard and to his office. Joseph Lave went out for some air at about 12:40 and stayed for about 5 minutes..then Diemshutz pulled up..
Thats all I meant by people coming and going...
nobody saw anything. From all accounts, there are 2 ways out...through the club...or through the gates. Best regards.
Paul |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 465
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 3:45 am: | |
Hi All,...I am thinking that perhaps he was someone who knew the layout of the club and that he just slipped back inside[hands in pockets ,rinsed his hands possibly in a sink he knew the whereabouts of and then eased himself out when they were all gathered round panicking or let himself out the backway.It would make sense if he was someone who was "in the know" about the Berner Street club and the Imperial club
10 yards from Mitre Square.If he was familiar that is with movements,layouts that have areas of darkness and can be counted on to be reasonably deserted after a certain time at night[or in the case of Berner Street while people were still going to be most of the time inside carrying on club business].Was he possibly angered or provoked at seeing Elizabeth Stride soliciting for business outside "his" club?
I"m reminded that Levy,who was one of the three who saw Catherine Eddowes with a man in Church passage as he was leaving his club "seemed uneasy and remarked he didnt like walking home alone when such people were about".It was never made plain why he felt uneasy but he was also very evasive as a witness at the inquest making people think"he knew more than he was prepared to say".
Natalie |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1241
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 3:53 am: | |
G'day,
If the killer did hide further back in the dark yard until Deimshutz ran inside, all he had to do if he was spotted leaving was to pretend that he was one of the alarmed onlookers running to find a policeman.
LEANNE |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 103
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 4:10 am: | |
Hi All,
This thread raises some very good points. During our researches for our book Sue and I discovered an old survey map of the area. Behind Dutfields Yard was Gower Walk. It looks like a small alleyway ran between that and the yard in Berner street, therefore providing an adequate get-away route.The killer(s) would have been aware of this.
We have also a theory as to why Liz Stride was seen struggling with a man who was apparently pulling her across the road. We think the intended murder spot was not Dutfields Yard, but a location in Fairclough Street. But that's another story.
A&S. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1063
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 5:22 am: | |
Andy S
You asked about a plan of Dutfield's Yard - the best I can do is an enlarged section showing the yard and surrounding buildings taken from the 1894 Ordnance Survey map which I'm attaching below.
I have marked the yard with a red cross - Berner Street is to the east and Fairclough Street to the south.
Hope this is of use
Chris
 |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1242
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 5:39 am: | |
G'day,
Thanks Chris. Where exactly was the entrance to club, (where Deimschutz ran), and does anyone know what was in the section just above the cross, because I believe the club was on the Fairclough Street side (that right?).
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1243
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 5:45 am: | |
G'day,
No, I just found out the club was on the other side! Anyway, where exactly was the door to the club?
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1244
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 5:57 am: | |
G'day,
I'll just move this to the victim's board, under 'Elizabeth Stride'.
LEANNE |
RipperHistorian
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:14 am: | |
Hey Paul,
Considering that he didn't get a chance to mutilate her (or if it wasn't JTR, didn't want to) I would guess that he didn't have nearly as much blood or other gore on him after killing her.
To be honest, I a have never seen Dutfields Yard so I don't know what kind of opportunities were available for the killer to escape. I would be grateful if you could elaborate on this for me.
Anyways, the killer would have had have either fled the scene without being spotted OR blended in with the crowd.
1) I suppose it is perfectly possible that he simply fled at the right opportunity before anybody knew what was going on. That would be my gut instinct.
2) Considering that he may have been blood free, there is a chance that he could have tossed the knife on a rooftop or hid it somehwere else and just blended in with the crowd. When searched, there was nothing to incriminate him.
I am leaning towards number one, mainly because I believe she was killed by JTR , and I think that he would have been in a killer lust rage after not getting to "do his thing" by mutilating Stride's body. This would have made it very difficult for him to blend in with the crowd and seem normal. Also, he didn't have THAT much time to make it to the second site, so therefore he must have left relatively quickly, which indicates he probably did not stick around and get rounded up by the police.
Here's a little story:
Once I was at a park with one of my friends, a long time ago when I was a young punk, and we were drinking beer at about 1:30 in the morning and hanging out drinking and smoking cigarettes. His house was within sight of the park. At this park, there was a playground and swings and benches and stuff. We were hanging out by this stuff when suddenly I saw a light come around from the back of the school building (The park is a school). From where the light came from I knew it could only be a cop. So, I told my buddy to freeze because he didn't see the lights. Sure enough it was a cop car. The cop car came around the side of the building and proceeded to come directly towards us, but it had to stay on the sidewalk, so therefore could not point it's lights right on us. I was sure that we were about to get busted with a 24 pack of beer on public school property, when all of a sudden the cop car, which was moving slowly, passed right by us. I couldn't believe it. This cop car with the driver side side door not more than 15 feet from us had somehow not noticed to guys and a 24 pack of beer standing still. As soon as the car got a little more past us we ran as fast as we could, putting the playground in between us and the cop to block his view, and lo and behold we escaped without being seen by a cop that passed literally within 15 feet of us, and his window had been wide open. Shortly after, 3 more cop cars showed up at the park. We went to my buddy's yard and we could see the school from there where we proceeded to watch the cops search the school and school roof for about 45 minutes. Apparently somebody had called in saying there were some people drinking on the school grounds. This park was well lit, we had no warning that the cops were coming until they were upon us, there were two of and we didn't hide, we just froze, and we managed to escape.
So, the point of my story is, if you take off quickly and without hesitation at the right time, and get lucky, it is very possible to escape without ever having been seen when there are people looking for you, even if they are close by.
Just my thoughts,
Tim |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 470
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 10:42 am: | |
Thanks, Chris for the plan. But I wonder if it would have shown any rear gates, had they existed.
It seems that people were not going in and out of the club immediately at the time of the murder (or they would have noticed the activity). But people were coming and going at that general time of the night. This makes the murderer's actions quite bold and risky indeed.
As to hiding in the darkness of the Yard by keeping still or whatever, yes I'm sure he could have done this for a while. But at some point he would have to have exited the Yard without being detected by searching police (and sooner rather than later if he is also Eddowes' killer.) I doubt that he could exit through the main entrance into Berner Street -- unless he was known to the club members and didn't seem out of place there. But I think it is likely that there was a back gate or a fence that could have been climbed that would have provided another escape route.
Andy and/or Sue: Your hypothesis about the murder location being elsewhere sounds interesting. Have you published it?
Andy S.
(Message edited by aspallek on March 17, 2004) |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 10:43 am: | |
I used the previously posted picture but put in the location of where the corpse was found as a red dot; and the Jewish club's location as a green dot - as drawn in Sugden's The complete history of JTR.
(Message edited by pl4tinum on March 17, 2004)
Chris 
|
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 913
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 10:51 am: | |
Tim,
That's interesting. Maybe the killer (Jack or otherwise) was literally just standing very still by the wall/fence as Diemschutz came into the yard and that could be why the horse shied.
Sarah |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 57
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:00 am: | |
Sugden says there were 2 entrances to the club. One was a 'side door' which must have been near the Berner street entrance since Sugden says the body was found "near the side door" of the club along the right wall if you were coming through the gates. Diemschutz' pony shied to the left as it came through the gates, possibly because it saw either a corpse or someone in the corner against the wall on its right. Thus the side door of the club was right near the body, along that right wall as you came through the gates from Berner street. Sugden notes that Diemschutz said he thought he saw something in the corner to his right but it was too dark to make out and he continued along the path. He also writes that the man who found the body noticed a pool of blood gathering near the side door - he saw it in the light from the Kitchen (which was what was inside the club's side door), and that it had pooled there as it ran down from the gates/corpse.
(Message edited by pl4tinum on March 17, 2004)
Chris
|
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 890
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:35 am: | |
Liz's killer was long gone before Louis even entered Berner st.
Monty
 |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 916
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:55 am: | |
Monty,
Liz's killer was long gone before Louis even entered Berner st.
Quoting my tutor at college here but, where is the evidence or reference for this?
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 893
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:58 am: | |
Sarah,
OK, lets try it this way.
Liz's killer WAS in the yard when Louis's cart entered through the gates of the same yard
Now what would your tutor say to that ?
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 918
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:03 pm: | |
Monty,
Did I say that? I don't think I did. If I did then my memory must be going.
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 894
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:13 pm: | |
Sarah,
Did I say that you did ? NO.
Everyone is throwing up the possibilities of the murderers escape route from the yard.
I am merely suggesting that her killer wasnt in the yard...another possibilty.
OK?
Monty
|
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:13 pm: | |
Monty, how do you know he was long gone? Diemschutz himself said that he couldn't make out what was in the corner next to the gates because it was too dark. Sugden suggests that Diemschutz interrupted Jack, but doesn't say for sure whether or not Jack was gone from the scene at that point.
Chris
|
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 60
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:15 pm: | |
Sorry Monty,
The way you said it so assertively, I interpreted it as you knowing something about it that we weren't aware of. 
Chris
|
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 919
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:17 pm: | |
Monty,
Well that's ok then. It's just that the fact your post sounded like a statement of fact I was wondering where you got your evidence for that from.
I said "did I say that?" because I thought it was an unfair thing to ask as I don't say statements without evidence or references personally.
Sarah
P.S. See Chris thought you were stating a fact too.
(Message edited by sarah on March 17, 2004) |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 895
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:23 pm: | |
Chris,
Blimey.
OK, I feel Liz's killer was long gone.
The fact that Louis didnt see anyone coupled with the fact that the only mutilation would take seconds along with my assumption that the police would have checked the yard for disturbance (like Mylett) and also Louis doesnt mention he saw anyone out in the street during his approach to the yard, leads me to believe the possibility that her killer wasnt in the yard when Louis entered the god damn yard.
Nothing indicates he was.
But thats my opinion.
Monty
|
