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Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1252
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 7:35 am: |       |
G'day Sarah,
One phase that a serial killer goes through after the actual murder phase, involves blending back into life/innocence. I read all about the seven phases that a killer goes through.
Street sellers and retailers got to the market as soon as possible, so they would get the best bargains, and avoid the 'specks', (damaged fruit).
On the 'Victorian London Dictionary' Website, I read: 'Oranges are bought by retailers in Duke's Place',(otherwise known as 'St. James Square' or 'The Orange Market'), and Covent Garden; but the costermongers nearly all resort to Duke's Place. and the shopkeepers to Covent Garden.'
'The Illustrated Police News' 6 Oct 1888 gave a description of the area around Mitre Square after Kate's body was found: 'Usually a busy place on a Sunday morning, Houndsditch and connecting thouroughfares presented a particularly animated appearance, men with barrows vending fruit and edables, doing a brisk trade.' The men had to go to the fruit market to hire and load up their fruit barrows first!
LEANNE |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 477
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 8:03 am: | |
Hi Alan,This is the first I have read of a repectably dressed man asking after a couple
Is there any other reference to this?It was about the time Lawende Levy and Harris parted company.It might fit with sgt Steve White"s sighting of a man he described as having "luminous eyes"[opium? coming out of Mitre Square---Donald Rumbelow believes it to be Mitre Square. |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 8:59 pm: | |
Hi Everybody,
There are 2 unconfirmed reports that about 1:15 a man, matching the description of Schwartz and Lawendes man, was seen sitting on a doorstep in Church lane "looking suspicious and wiping his hands off". While this certainly doesnt mean that this guy was Jack the Ripper, it is interesting. The reports that the man was in a dark coat and wore a sailors cap and a mustache. The man said when he looked at the guy, he wouldnt look up and appeared to be hiding his face.
Paul
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Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 9:42 pm: | |
Oh, I forgot...
the above reports were supposedly made before
Schwartz or Lawende's suspect descriptions were made public. I think that maybe that guy may have seen Stride's killer, who I believe was Jack, making a pit stop on his way to Find Another Hooker. Best Regards...
Paul |
Anuska Victoria
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 12:42 pm: | |
The killer would have waited until there was no one around before he struck. He may even have been inside the IWMC on Berner Street that night where Elizabeth Stride was killed. Stride, a prostitute, was waiting for the men to come out of the club. Police Constable William Smith said he noticed her at 12:35am along Berner Street. Twenty five minutes later Louis Diemschutz arrived in the yard of the club suprised to find the gates open and noticed Stride's body. Diemschutz left the yard immiediatly to get a candle (indicating that it was too dark to see) if someone was in the yard at that point he would not have seen them. The killer had plenty of time to escape when Louis went inside. Looking at it logically the killer would not have ran away, drawing suspicion to himself, he would have acted calmly and he may have had a disguise. A women living at 36 Berner Street testified that she saw a man, at about 1am, walking quickly to Commercial Road carring a black Gladstone bag, a bag large enough to carry whatever he might need. Commercial Road would also have led him eventually to Mitre Square, where he would kill his second victim that night |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 74
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 3:20 pm: | |
Hi Anuska,
The man carrying the gladstone bag later came
forward and told police that he was in the vicinity of the crime but was not involved.
Your theory is pretty much the same as mine,
although I dont necessarily think that he was
inside the club that night. Also, Stride was
seen several times that night with a man that,
according to witness descriptions, was very similiar to Schwartz's man and Smiths man.
They very well could be describing the same man.
Best Regards.
Paul
|
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 498
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 3:59 pm: | |
Hi Anuska and Paul,What makes me think he may have been familiar with the club even if that particular night he wasnt inside it is that he wasnt seen making his escape from the yard by any of the witnesses.
I must say it also makes me wonder why he was hanging round that particular club.As I said before in another post it may have been he didnt like prostitutes hanging round the club soliciting the men who came out of that club.
If you then accept he hot footed it to another club near Mitre Square where he was seen by 3 men one of whom [Levy] "appeared to know more than he wished to testify"-a pattern seems to be beginning to emerge-did prostitutes frequent THAT club and solicit outside in the same way etc
Then if you add on Goulston Street and think about the type of dwelling house [ie who lived there] and where the Graffiti was found inside it and the Bit of cloth with the writing above it, then the pattern becomes a bit more pronounced-and you can start to forgive Anderson his thinking!
Natalie |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 75
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 7:59 pm: | |
Hi Nat,
yea...good call on that post. It does make one wonder about that doesnt it. I agree that the "jewish clubs" could come into play, but,
Im still not sure if its just a coincidence(a big one,yes) or not. We may never know. Regards...
Paul |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 10:03 pm: | |
Or maybe he just hates women that date Jewish guys.
Paul |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 534
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 3:56 am: | |
A women living at 36 Berner Street testified that she saw a man, at about 1am, walking quickly to Commercial Road carring a black Gladstone bag, a bag large enough to carry whatever he might need.
This is one of the glaring errors from Patricia Cornwell's book where I assume you read it. Fanny Mortimer in fact saw the man with the bag sometime around quarter to half an hour earlier, walking FROM Commercial Road. He stopped and looked up at the club on his way past, then turned the corner into Fairclough Street. She did not see this man after the murder and he was not walking towards Commercial Road. Also, as stated by Paul, Leon Goldstein, a commercial traveller, later came forward to identify himself to the police as being this man. The bag contained cigarette cartons. |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 899
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 4:57 am: | |
Glenn,
Re your March 18th post,
If Id have read the Stride thread (it bores me most of the time as it discusses the same old same old) Id have jumped to your defence a lot sooner. Unfortunately I cannot give you the credit for my questioning of Schwartz, that my own work Im afraid….comes with the training.
Your thought process about the Louis’s testimony is very very good. It makes very clear reading and, of course, sense. As always. Just that I see it differently.
Talking about convenience, you question Schwartz yet Mrs Mortimer is unchallenged. The way I see it the consensus is if you believe Schwartz you must not believe Mortimer. Or if you believe Mortimer then you must feel Schwartz had got it wrong….there is no other possibility is there ?
Regards,
Monty
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1404
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 7:50 pm: | |
Hi Monty,
Regarding the questioning of Schwartz... Don't worry; I'll be glad to give you the credit for it -- I've been picked on because of it to such an extent, that I don't mind at all.
I remember some one else did think along the same lines; could have been you, then...
Thank you for the nice words, although you "see it differently". As long as I manage to at least make some sort of sense, people don't have to agree with me.
To tell you the truth, the Stride case is really making my already grey hair grow inwards. I really don't know what to make out of this whole mess.
"Talking about convenience, you question Schwartz yet Mrs Mortimer is unchallenged. The way I see it the consensus is if you believe Schwartz you must not believe Mortimer. Or if you believe Mortimer then you must feel Schwartz had got it wrong….there is no other possibility is there?"
Well, that could be correct, but -- now, I am not sure if I understand your passage there correctly -- as I remember somewhere far back in my head, her initial time estimating for her standing in the door way was approximately ten minutes (not half an hour, as has been stated later) and that she heard Diemschutz's cart just as she had stepped inside. If the Schwartz incident did take place around 12.45 (as he believed, although he naturally could be mistaken), there is of course a possibility that Mr. Broad Shoulders (if he was the murderer) could have killed her and then left, just before Mrs. Fanny Mortimer went outside. If that was the case, then the two witness statements don't necessarily contradict each other concerning times and movements. I must consider that possibility.
However, I feel everything hangs in the air; if the witness testimonies here tell a true story, each of them, then we still can't fully rely on the time tables delivered by any of them, something that I feel is necessary. That is to me the greatest problem, and if we had more testimonies corroborating their statements, these details hopefully would be less confusing than they seem.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 9:25 pm: | |
Hey Glenn,
Or The Killer could have left the yard after Fanny went inside. Actually Fannys testimony is important here....Ok..she was obviously not at the door during the "Struggle"...she obviously didnt see Schwartz or Pipeman. So, there are two scenarios here that could have occured:
Schwartz didnt see the incident until closer to 1:00 after Fanny had went inside. She stated that she heard Louis'pony shortly after she went inside. How long "shortly after"..we dont know.
This would place the murder at a few minutes before 1:00...if this Scenario is correct then the man that killed Stride was probably Jack The Ripper.
If Schwartz was fairly accurate in his time, then Fanny may have not made it outside yet..
And missed the whole thing. This Scenario would favor the killer as someone other than the Ripper since he was not interrupted.
Thats just an interpretation of what could have happened. Best Regards,
Paul
(Message edited by paulj on March 30, 2004) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1405
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 6:38 am: | |
Hey Paul,
Correctomundo.
That is quite similar to how I see it as well, to some extent.
Let's say Schwartz was accurate about the time, and Mr Broad Shoulders was the murderer -- then I feel there are too many minutes for him to hang around in order to then leave after Mrs Mortimer went inside and then be interrupted by Diemschutz.
It is of course possible that something could have happened during the murder at 12.45 that could have forced him to for example hide behind the gate or in a dark corner (like a person walking down the street, who wasn't seen by anybody and don't appear in the witness testimonies, or by some noise or someone appearing for a second or two in the side-door of the club). When we are talking about interruptions, we are usually only referring to Diemschutz, but there is a very slim possibility (if one desperately wants to hang on to the interruption scenario) that an interruption could have occurred earlier for another reason, which forced him to hide and then he suddenly discovers Fanny Mortimer when he is about to clear out, so he therefore has to stay in there until the woman leaves. Well, I don't really buy it, but it is a possibility nevertheless.
Regardless of which, as you say: if Schwartz's time estimate was inaccurate and the assault didn't happen until closer to 1:00, then we must consider the Diemschutz interruption theory as valid. (However, in my view, that still doesen't mean it has to be Jack the Ripper. We still have other things to take into account: forensic evidence like the signs of different murder weapons etc. -- I know you really want to believe it, like I used to, but just because the killer may have been interrupted and Schwartz could have been wrong about the time, Mr Broad Shoulder doesne't have to be Jack the Ripper; and I believe he wasn't anyway.)
Or else, as you say, the murder really took place at 12:45 and therefore probably was not Jack the Ripper anyway and the killer wasn't disturbed.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 92
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 8:12 pm: | |
Hey Glenn,
Yea..Good post. The main reason that I like Stride being a victim is that..if she's not, then that only leaves four. Take out MJK(which I feel is a Ripper Victim) that everyone is dismissing these days as a Ripper victim...that leaves three. Next, people will be claiming that Annie and Martha were not JTR victims. Then where does that leave us?
Yes..the evidence in the Stride case could possibly point to someone else, Im not denying
that. But it makes it a little more exciting if he really did hack up two women in one night.
Plus, Dutfields yard is the most interesting murder scene anyway (in my opinion). Its just more entertaining to me to think of Stride as a Ripper Victim....It livens things up a bit.
This is kinda out of left field, but what if Mr Broad shoulders threw Stride down and she pulled her knife on him. What if he just got pissed and slashed her throat with her own knife? I know thats sort of far out, but that thought just occured to me. Schwartz said the guy didnt have anything in his hands.
As you were saying earlier.. what if the killer was interrupted by someone other than Louis?
Thats very possible, since there were obviously people coming in and out of the side door. Some, like you stated, could have done so and there is no report of it in the files. There were people coming and going most of the night. It sucks that we dont know exactly what happened. But then again, figuring it out is all the fun. Im gonna go eat dinner now. Best Regards.
Paul |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 959
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 3:26 am: | |
Chaps,
Isnt this the most confusing murder and crime scene in the supposed series ?
I have to have my books at hand when Im going through this one.
Ouch Monty
Our little group has always been and always will until the end... |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1410
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 8:05 am: | |
Monty,
It is. It is. Indeed. I would be completely lost without having the books spread wide open when discussing the Stride incident. And still one gets it wrong and gets confused at occasion. Even if it may not have been Jack the Ripper, it is indeed a mystery worthy of him.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1411
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 8:21 am: | |
Hey paul,
Nice chatting with you as always.
"The main reason that I like Stride being a victim is that..if she's not, then that only leaves four. Take out MJK(which I feel is a Ripper Victim) that everyone is dismissing these days as a Ripper victim...that leaves three. Next, people will be claiming that Annie and Martha were not JTR victims. Then where does that leave us?"
Yeah I know. But I think there's no need for you to worry. Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes have as far as I know never been questioned, and I don't think they ever will. The similarities are too great, and even if we are only left with three, Jack the Ripper still is a serial killer -- the limit goes with three victims, as far as I know. Personally I feel that there were more Ripper victims than that, but in some of them I think we should keep an open mind nevertheless.
"But it makes it a little more exciting if he really did hack up two women in one night.
Plus, Dutfields yard is the most interesting murder scene anyway (in my opinion). Its just more entertaining to me to think of Stride as a Ripper Victim....It livens things up a bit."
Aah, you remind me of myself in my younger days...
Just kidding. I feel the same way. That is why I fought against the possibility of alternative solutions so long.
Well, actually my favorite murder scene (God, I didn't like the sound of that...) is Mitre Square. A really spooky place, and it still is, although it is totally rebuilt. But just look at the old photos and remind yourself that only two flickering gas lamps lit up the "square" (not larger than a small back yard, really) and all those abandoned empty buildings at night. And then the horrific nature of the murder itself. Brrrr...
Besides, No offense to poor Stride, my fellow countrywoman, but Eddowes is my favorite character among the victims. A very interesting woman in many ways.
In Sweden Stride is known and accepted as the Ripper's third canonical victim, and it would indeed be a bummer for the Swedes in general if she wasn't and just a victim of a drunken ruffian. But the murder is of course a shame and sad incident, whoever did it.
Hope you had a good dinner, Paul.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 9:11 pm: | |
Didn't Fanny live like three doors down from Dutfields yard? I dont have my books in front of me, so Im not exactly sure. But I know she lived on the same side of the street. Wouldnt it be difficult, if you're looking out your front door, to see whats going on two or three doors down..on the same side of the street.
I just tried to do just that..and I must say that it would be difficult. Fanny never said she went outside, so how could she have seen anything going on at #40 anyway? The killer could have easily went out the gates and down the street(heading the other way of course) and Fanny might not have seen anything. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Best Regards.
Paul |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1417
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 6:49 am: | |
Hi Paul,
We can't be actually sure what she meant -- "standing in the door" can be interpreted in many ways. But I suppose that it would be quite hard. If she only were standing in the doorway, it would probably be rather difficult to see her if you peeked out from the yard.
As I said, I only put forward that as a minor suggestion, without never really believing in it myself. It was offered as a very vague possibility, not something to take too seriously.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 8:31 am: | |
Hey Everybody,
Ya know, I just had a thought about the wound to Strides neck. Polly Nichols and Chapman both had 2 separate slices through the throat. Stride's throat was gashed 6 inches. Thats a long gash! He could have been interrupted as
he cut her throat, which would explain why he didnt finish the complete cut(assuming, of course that JTR was the killer).
When Pollys neck wound was examined, Dr. Llewylenn said that the knife was not that long and could have been a shoemaker's knife. A shoemakers knife was also a possible weapon used to slash Strides throat. This might not mean
a thing and probably doesnt, but I thought it was kind of interesting. Regards.
Paul |
Neale Carter
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ncarter
Post Number: 52
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 7:18 am: | |
Paul,
Your theory is a load of old cobblers.
Do you have a description for a shoemaker's knife? I assume it would be shortish, stout and very sharp for cutting leather.
Regards
Neale |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1164
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 5:34 pm: | |
Hi all
Thought this large scale (40 feet to 1 inch) of the Berner Street site and surroundings might help
Chris
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1562
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 5:45 pm: | |
Wow! At least a decent plan over the actual vicinity! I must say it's the first time I have ever seen such a detailed plan over Dutfield's Yard and its surroundings.
Do you any information about when it's dated, Chris? And what is the source you found it in? A book or a city archive?
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 132
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 5:53 pm: | |
Chris,
Thank you man!!!! It never ceases to amaze me how you come up with all this stuff. BIG TIME HELP!
Paul |
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