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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2048
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2004 - 6:44 pm: | 
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Louise, what do you mean when you say that Shipman was a unique serial killer inasmuch as he was non-violent? What about serial poisoners, for instance?
Robert |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2004 - 7:50 pm: |
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R.C. Linford is right. Also, when you say "He was non-violent, and in this one fact alone he is completely unique compared to any other serial killer", you betray your ignorance of the fact that there are multiple examples of "Angels of Death" (either doctors or nurses) who, disguised as caregivers, kill without pity. They do it either for gain or the power rush.
Then again, perhaps you are merely a troll.
On a (possibly?) related note, does Britain suffer from the unpleasant phenomenon of "murder groupies"? That is, individuals, mostly women, who seem to get off on corresponding with, visiting, and then marrying serial killers? Richard Ramirez comes to mind in the USA.
Regards, Vincent |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2058
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 6:47 pm: |
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Yes, Vincent, I think that phenomenon is at work in Britain today. In fact, decades ago in Germany Peter Kurten used to get female fan mail!
Robert |
Julia
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 8:51 pm: |
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There is a name for that phenomenon where people (unfortunately usually women) feel a connection to a violent criminal in prison, thinking they could be the one person in the world who understands and can help them. Or maybe they just get a thrill out of the danger of writing to or meeting such a person. Many prisoners actually marry someone on the outside who never even knew them except as a convicted rapist or killer, or other kind of violent criminal. Ted Bundy had hundreds of "fans" who wanted to meet him and who proclaimed love for him. It's scary...
Julia |
rosa divineski
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 11:41 pm: |
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Greetings everyone:
regardless of any postitive emotions one may feel for Shipman, what he will be remembered for is the pain he caused. He does not gain any value as a human being. Ted Bundy was loved, but has anyone gained anything from loving him? No one is richer for knowing him. At best they are floored, at worst, dead. Otherwise empty.
rosa |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 604
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 5:51 am: |
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Louise,
Do you honestly believe that we should forget about all the people he killed because he helped a handful of people? I don't think so.
I know this is your point of view and you are entitled to it but it seems to me that you have the attitude of "well he hasn't hurt me so why should I hate him?". This attitude is very wrong. Personally I feel that people who think this just don't seem to care about others. Do you care about all those people who had loved ones killed by Shipman? If this is not your attitude then forgive me, I only say it how it seems to be coming across.
Rosa,
Very well put I think.
Sarah |
LOUISE BROWN
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 5:42 am: |
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There is plenty of 'evidence' to suggest that the death of Dr Shipman's mother caused his emotional trama and subsequent behaviour. Just read the FACTS of his early life.
The majority of serial killers murder because of their own perverted, twisted lusts.
Dr Shipman did not rape, torture, brutalise, sexually assault or viciously kill his
patients, so there is little point in your comparisons to the 'monsters' you refer to in these posts.
The regime at Wakefield jail very definitely failed him and I think there should be some there who should be feeling guilty regarding his death.
Louise
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M.Mc.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 2:49 pm: |
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The problem is nobody cannot say for sure who will become a killer and why. Somewhere along the way a person can become a blood lusting fiend. Like switching on and off of a light, something causes a otherwise normal person to become a cold blooded killer. No mater if they are loved or not, no matter if they like the color blue or not. |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 607
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 12:01 pm: |
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Louise,
The fact that he saw his mother die doesn't immediately suggest that this was the instigator for his killing spree.
Why should someone feel guilty about his death? I doubt he felt guilty about the deaths of the people he killed.
You still haven't answered my question from before. Do you honestly believe that his limited good deeds mean that people should just forget all the murders he committed?
Sarah |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 257
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 5:02 pm: |
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Hi Louise,I Have wondered whether Harold Shipman became obsessed with watching "death" happen,and that thjis may have started when his mother had to have morphine injections.Like he got hooked on the whole scenario.Maybe he even thought that because numbers of them were fairly old he was actually doing them a favour.But he had no right to play "God" and must have known he was doing wrong and [in my view simply indulged his appetite for watching this Macabre scenario].He therefore "chose" to betray trust and murder innocent and defenceless elderly people causing untold suffering for their sons daughters sisters brothers friends etc.This in my view made his behavior indefencible.
Best Wishes Natalie. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2074
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 5:53 am: |
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No, Louise, that won't do.
Let's suppose for a moment that you're right, i.e. that Shipman did suffer from an unsuspected condition which rendered him not responsible for his actions. Interesting then the easy way you slip into saying that some of the people at Wakefield jail "should be feeling guilty regarding his death".
But what of these people at Wakefield jail? Do they have unsuspected psychological conditions?
Have they suffered traumas? Did their upbringing and education equip them to deal with, or to bring themselves to understand, someone like Shipman?
I'm sorry, but it cuts both ways. And it's very noticeable the way you have started talking of guilt, but in relation to the people at Wakefield.
Robert |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 713
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 6:28 am: |
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Hi Nat, All,
Shipman did indeed know he was doing wrong. This monster ‘doctored’ the evidence on computer to change dates, diagnoses and treatments, in a desperate and unsuccessful attempt to hide his evil-doing behind a cynical mask that made him appear like the perfect GP – tireless and caring, working way beyond the call of duty, to give his all in the service of everyone on his list.
The day that his ‘doctoring’ was discovered, and the mask systematically stripped away, he lost it, becoming enraged, and turned on those who dared to question and undermine the vice-like grip he had managed to establish over many years on all the poor sods who trusted him with their health and with their lives.
In short, Shipman decided one day, as a thinking adult, to take criminal control over other human beings. When that control was finally wrenched from him, he lost it in more ways than one - and he couldn’t bear it.
We see the same thing happening all the time, to a much lesser and non-criminal extent, when people mislead, and lie, and distort facts just so they can stay in control and lord it over everyone who looks up to them, reacting strongly if and when they are found out.
Love,
Caz
(Message edited by Caz on February 10, 2004) |
LOUISE BROWN
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 5:29 am: |
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Of course I sympathise with the relatives of the patients Dr Shipman injected; and of course what he did cannot be condoned. But I also feel very sorry for Dr Shipman.
I do believe that the sad death of his mother caused his emotional disturbance; always seeing her being injected with the pain killer morphine, and then the final one. He was close to his mother and I believe his psyche became twisted in the grieving process. He definitely needed help and counselling instead of being expected to carry on as normal.
To compare him to other serial killers is wrong. He did a lot of good in his life, and many people could testify to the care and help he gave them as a doctor. Nearly everyone at the time spoke well of him and said what a wonderful doctor he was.
Even in Frankland prison where most of his time inside was spent, he was helpful and was doing useful things.
Both staff and inmates at Wakefield should feel guilty. Dr Shipman was doing his time. He had never been violent to anyone and he did not deserve to have violence and nastiness shown to him. I think the prison system failed him badly.
Louise |
Rosa Divineski
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 1:16 pm: |
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Greetings everyone:
It takes arrogance to take another persons life. it's not a switch. It was a behaviour that Shipman decided not to control, contain, or discuss. He took his own life for the same reason. He did not share the same world we do. And his actions would certainly have me look again into how exactly his mother died. People had no value for him, including you or I or his mother.
There is nothing that could excuse his behaviour and it's insult to everyone he killed, and to those who loved them, to try and find one for him. Infact, it's plain insulting to excuse murder.
rosa |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 616
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 10:33 am: |
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Louise,
Are you some sort of psychologist? Did you exchange a single word with Shipman? If so I apologise, but to be quite honest I doubt it very much. Unless you are experienced in the workings of the mind and human nature and have met with the person on quite a few occasions you cannot understand what is going on in their heads and understand why they do the things they do.
I'm sure that those people you talk about who were nice about him when he was found out still did not agree with his murders and were happy to see him locked up. If I'd been a patient of his and then found out what he had done I would be very relieved to see him locked up and feel very lucky that he hadn't tried to kill me.
I don't see why anyone should feel guilty about his death, no-one made him kill himself, he came to that decision himself.
I agree with Rosa, it is VERY insulting to try to find an excuse for his murders.
Sarah |
Michael Raney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 12:06 pm: |
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Louise, I suggest you spend time volunteering in your local Jail to see what it's like trying to keep everyone doing what they should be doing, keeping watch on every single person, keeping everything clean, getting new bedding to everyone and feeding everyone. Dr. Shipman was an adult and even in prison everyone is responsible for himself. Guards and staff are not psychic, they cannot forsee very event that might happen and systems are in place to prevent as much as possible from happening. Shipman knew very well what he was thinking and doing. No one else had that privilege.
With all respect,
Mikey |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 259
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 5:23 pm: |
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Hi Caz/All
Yes Caz you are right about the medical records being doctored as well! This was all quite systematic and premeditated.Mind I think he was in complete denial about the monstrous nature of his crimes not that this matters much whether he was or wasnt but he seemed to convince himself that he hadnt done anything wrong which is astonishing.
Best Wishes Nats |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 833
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 6:00 pm: |
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Caz
actually your very descriptive post just about sums up every GP I ever met in my life, apart of course where you described them as 'tireless and caring'. Surely you are getting confused here, or have had a drink?
Excuse me while I try to avoid the stampede as they rush to sign the death certificate for their fifty quid. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 720
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 5:12 am: |
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Hi AP,
I was describing the ‘perfect’ GP that Shipman pretended to be – I never claimed perfect GPs actually exist. I don’t have enough experience of consulting them to know. 
Having said that, back in the 1970s, when I lived near Colchester, I had to visit my GP in the tiny village of Coggeshall, because I was suffering badly with a torn eardrum. He had a terrible ‘bedside’ manner, abrupt and impatient with this new patient who was crying with the pain and dizziness. I put it down to an off-day and thankfully I never had to bother him again with my ills. His name? Dr Jones, the GP who before long would be all over the front pages, suspected of murdering his wife, Diane. I can’t remember if her body was ever found, or if foul play was ever confirmed.
Hi Rosa,
I absolutely disagree with your comment about Shipman not sharing the same world as we do. Unfortunately, taking control and having power over other living beings using any deliberately underhand means, criminal or otherwise, happens on a daily basis all over the world, by ‘normal’ husbands, wives and parents, ‘normal’ bosses, ‘normal’ politicians, ‘normal’ people in every walk of life you can think of. When the inner compulsion to retain a power gained in this way becomes obsessive, the results can be spectacularly tragic for all concerned.
The last thing someone ‘afflicted’ in this way can ever do is to admit they were in the wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Apologising, backing down or taking their punishment like a man – or woman – would be against their nature. If they were made that way, they would have gained all their strength, their credibility and the respect they deserve by honest and straightforward means, and would actually prefer to have their mistakes pointed out to them by others working towards a similar goal. In short, they are cowards. And when they are finally forced by circumstances to face the truth about themselves, they just can’t do it. They turn on their accusers and/or go into denial and finally self-destruct.
Become a people watcher and see if I’m wrong – I hope I am.
Love,
Caz
(Message edited by Caz on February 11, 2004) |
LOUSE BROWN
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 4:29 am: |
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With the plethora of views which have been expressed in this thread as to why you think Dr Shipman did what he did, you can hardly accuse me of being the only one to do so.
It is certainly NOT insulting to supply a very likely reason as to his motivation. Many of the patients relatives have repeatedly asked the question: Why did he do it? An answer may be of interest to them if not to those who are indifferent such as yourselves.
Regarding the prison issue, Dr Shipman was a vulnerable and high-profile prisoner and should have been protected at Wakefield jail. He seemed to be getting on o.k at Frankland prison which implies that the prison authorities badly miscalculated when they had him transferred to 'unsavoury' Wakefield jail.
Louise
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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 625
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 9:47 am: |
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Louise,
I am not aware of anyone but you guessing why he committed his crimes, they are just saying that there is no excuse for him doing what he did. His mother's death may have been a factor in it but it is no excuse. Rosa didn't say it was insulting to find a reason behind his crimes but only that it is insulting to excuse it, they are very two different things.
I still have no pity for the way he died or how he was treated in prison, in my opinion if people murder then they should be treated like dirt as that's what they are. As the saying goes "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime".
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 723
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 10:16 am: |
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He had never been violent to anyone and he did not deserve to have violence and nastiness shown to him.
Sorry ?? I do not understand that one ?
Ahhh bless him.
My father lost his parents within months of each other.
He didnt turn out to be a serial murderer. He turned out to be the most honest and kindest man I know.
Its not his victims fault or their rellies that Harold suffered.
He was a murderer and nothing can excuse a murderers behavoir....nothing.
Monty |
Rosa
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 9:29 am: |
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Hi Caroline:
Shipman felt he was special enough that he didn't have to respect other people, the medical profession or the law.
Louise:
Shipman was aware enough of these values as to hide what he was doing.
How many people did he kill?
Over how many years?
Did he tell anyone what he was doing?
Did he try and get help?
Wasn't one of the rules to get on his dismissial list is to annoy him?
He always knew what he was doing and added bedside manners in order to continue to kill. otherwise he might have chosen to do something else. Unless of course you believe he was working for the national health service to help reduce costs?
Where can any good Shipman did possibly change what harm he has done?
Doing good is also a means of hiding your intentions, a method of deception, building integity. I mean Hitler built the autobahn, the most amazing architural structures in Germany, united a group of people who had been crushed for years by the treaty of 1919, put meat and potatoes on the table for those who were starving. Das ist gut! Komrad. Unless of course, you were communist or socialist, among others.
What did Shipman do for you?
Ted Bundy rescued a drowning girl. He worked for for a crisis centre. He appeared to hold most sacred, American values.
Can you honestly say what good Shipman had done can change the harm he has done? There are others who can do his good without killing. Do not devalue good by saying Shipman was a good person. You lower the standard of everyone else.
Rosa |
Michael Raney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 80
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 2:17 pm: |
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Monty,
Very well said!
Louise,
Again, I say - VOLUNTEER in any Jail or Prison system for just a short period of time. Maybe then you will understand that no single prisoner can be the priority of administration. I understand what you are saying but you have a very unrealistic view of the system if you feel it failed Shipman. And remember, he was still a murderer, no more, no less. No matter what mayor may not have triggered him.
With all respect,
Mikey |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2086
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 10:16 pm: |
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Louise, before you spend any more time fretting over the individual care and attention you feel was denied Shipman, you may care to remember that in some parts of Britain today there are elderly men and women hounded to death in their own homes over a number of years, by gangs of yobs whose conduct every do-gooder in the country bends over backwards to excuse.
How morally elevating to forgive something inflicted on someone else.
Robert |
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