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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 330
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 12:21 pm: | 
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Please do. I know I'd be interested.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 238
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 9:41 pm: |
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Here's a Dahlia site with the webmaster's own theory: www.lmharnisch.com/home.html
And then there's www.blackdahliaavenger.com - In my opinion, the best case against a suspect to date. Good book.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 122
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 9:36 am: |
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ERey,
I am also interested in why you think 'Severed' is as a whole highly fictionalized.
Take care,
Kevin |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 685
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 3:08 pm: |
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ERAY
I would be interested in why you regard the Gilmore book as wholly fictionalised. Padded with some questionable research and fleshed out with some fictionalised accounts, I could accept-however I would be hesitant to say an author has wholly fictionalised his book.
All The Best
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 686
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 3:20 pm: |
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The Walter Bayley theory as mentioned above is worth considering. Although to be honest, I think the killer is as yet unnamed publicly. As I've said before I believe the truth involves the man and woman (women?) Beth was scene with after her official disappearance.
Best
Gary |
ERey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 5:08 pm: |
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First off -- Gary, I never said I thought “Severed” to be “wholly fictionalized”. (Would that mean that the Black Dahlia murder itself was made up by Gilmore?) I said I found it _highly_ fictionalized, to a degree that surprised me, even though my expectations for the book were low.
I will say that I found the level of balderdash that “Severed” contained sufficient for me to disregard all the facts offered in it, absent outside corroboration. I feel the same way about Steve Hodel’s book. That’s not the same thing as saying that nothing in either book is true, only that the each of the author’s has, to my mind, proven himself to be thoroughly unreliable.
Next, a couple of caveats:
1.) My copy of “Severed” went back to the library a couple of months ago, so this is from memory.
2.) This necessarily depends on whose “facts” you believe, so I will try to explain which I find reliable, and why. Needless to say, your mileage may vary.
Anyway…
I take it as a fact that Elizabeth Short was not in California at any time from September 1943, when she sent back to Medford, MA, after being arrested for underage drinking in Santa Barbara, CA, until April 1946, when she first came to Los Angeles to live. Between those two dates she was mostly in Florida or home in Medford. Mary Pacios, who interviewed the Short family and many other people who knew Short in Medford for her book, tracks Short’s movements during this period in some detail. As I’ve said before, I find Pacios’ book to be substantially factually reliable, despite her funny ideas about Orson Welles. Larry Harnisch’s website says the same thing about Short’s whereabouts, and I find Harnisch to be factually reliable, although he’s got a ways to go before he convinces me that a previously law-abiding elderly man killed Short. The few facsimiles of documents from the time (newspaper articles, police reports, etc.) that I have seen are also consistent with this account of Short whereabouts. I’ve seen no reputable source that disputes this account.
Gilmore, on the other hand, spends perhaps one-third to half of his book chronicling Short’s activities in Los Angeles during the time when she was in fact not in Los Angeles. Although “Severed” is notorious for its lack of dates, the sheer volume of anecdotes gives the impression that Short spent perhaps two years in LA. Gilmore has Short working as a hostess at the Hollywood Canteen and meeting eventual murder victim Georgette Bauerdorf there. According to all sources, Bauerdorf was killed in October 1944. According to Harnisch, the Hollywood Canteen closed in November 1945. Gilmore gives us a long, detailed account of Short’s dealings with a painter named Arthur James. According to Pacios, James was a check-kiter, a con man, and a fabulist who grabbed a few headlines just after Short’s murder by claiming he had met Short in an LA café and painted her picture in 1944. Pacios gives James as an example of the kind of lowlifes that crawled out of the woodwork to claim they had known the Black Dahlia; I got the impression his story was quickly debunked at the time. Whether Gilmore is repeating and embellishing old canards or coming up with stories purely out of his own imagination, I don’t think we need to put too fine a point on it: Loads of “Severed” is just made up.
Then there is all the other fishy stuff about Gilmore: he’ll say he changed some names in the book, but won’t say which; nobody can show that some of his most important sources (e.g., the young detective on the case) ever existed, under any name; he says he had tapes of his conversations with Jack Anderson Wilson, but he lost them; he reportedly says he has a copy of Short’s autopsy report in his safe deposit box (shoulda put the tapes in there!), but no one can see it until he is dead, so it won’t get “exploited”. Sorry, but this guy does not strike me as a credible resource in any way, shape, or form.
Like I said, this is not to say Gilmore doesn’t get some of the facts right. I’m sure he does. So does Steve Hodel, and so, I’m sure, does Janice Knowlton, the other daddy-did-it author. But at some point, the horse-pucky piles up to the point where you have to consider everything B.S. until proven otherwise. |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 695
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 6:17 pm: |
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Hi Eray
I did not mean to say wholly fictionalised- I meant to say highly fictionalised.
I have my copy of Severed here with me, but it is flawed by the lack of an index, so I cannot immediately confirm or deny that Gilmore claims to have a copy of the autopsy report. From what I know to be true and from reading other sources on the autopsy report, the only copy is locked in a file drawer at the LAPD and there are no plans to release it to the public within our lifetimes.
As for my personal opinion on all of the books- the definitive story of Beth Short has not yet been published. Furthermore, that it would require access to the autopsy report to properly begin to sort out all of the facts.
All The Best
Gary |
ERey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 6:41 pm: |
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Gary,
The report that Gilmore says he has a copy of the autopsy comes from the posting on this thread by "T. Reed" on May 11, 2004. I think I have seen Gilmore make this claim, or imply it, in interviews.
I agree that the definitive BD story is not out there yet. I find myself in the weird position of recommending the Pacios book as the best one to date, despite her absurd suspect. |
Sm0k1e
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 4:33 pm: |
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Can anyone help me with a case study about the Kinsgbury Run murders ??
I need to know who were the supspects....
it'ts for a english case study 
Thx.
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eliza cline
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 11:28 pm: |
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You might get the book "In the Wake of the Butcher," it is supposed to be an authoritative account of the Kingsbury murders. The Crime Library website offers a good overview of the case.
There was an excellent suspect, a doctor, Francis Sweeney. He grew up in the Kingsbury Run area, where many of the bodies were located. He had the requisite medical knowledge. He was diagnosed as schizophrenic. Apparently he failed a polygraph about his guilt of the murders. But police were never able to build a conclusive case so he was never charged. But Elliot Ness always believed he was guilty. |
Eliza Cline
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 2:52 pm: |
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Something that bothers me about the Hodel affair..
Hodel died in 1991-damn, that means the police had plenty of time to extradite him and get hair and DNA samples to compare with the DNA and hair on the stamped "Avenger" letters sent to the police. Also, Jim Richardson, the City Editor of the LA times, may have talked to the killer...and police had Hodel' voice on tape! They should have let Richardson listen to those tapes.
Either the police were grossly negligent or there was indeed a coverup. |
ERey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 11:47 am: |
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Eliza,
Isn't a simpler explanation that, after investigation George Hodel thoroughly in 1949/1950, police no longer considered him a suspect, just as the official report said?
And how to you know police didn't have Jim Richardson listen to tapes of George Hodel's voice? Maybe that was one of the things that helped rule him out.
We can hardly expect Steve Hodel to give us an objective view of the available evidence. His book has been shown to be chock-a-block with nonsense. As I said in my posting about "Severed", at some point an author impeaches himself to such a great extent that everything he says (or, in this case, doesn't say) becomes suspect.
Aside to all: The CBS TV show "48 Hours" is supposedly going to devote a full hour show to Steve Hodel sometime this month. I expect a big, wet kiss along the lines of Cornwell on "Primetime" or Hodel on Court TV. But you never know. |
ERey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 2:06 pm: |
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A follow-up on the CBS "48 Hours" show on the Black Dahlia and Steve Hodel...
I don't know how seriously you want to take anything on these "infotainment" shows, but here goes. Most of this show was the usually credulous fluff, but they did make the following interesting points:
-- The LAPD admits that most of the physical evidence in the Black Dahlia case has gone missing over the years, the show reported.
-- The LAPD says that Dr. George Hodel was indeed a suspect in the case at one point, but that he was only one of 22 suspects, seven of whom were medical doctors, and, contrary to Steve Hodel's claims, they were never able to determine that George Hodel and Elizabeth Short ever met, the show reported.
-- The show confirmed that George Hodel's secretary died in 1945 of what was ruled a suicide by drug overdose, as I mentioned a few months ago on this thread.
-- The show hired document examiner John Osborn to compare samples of George Hodel's handwriting to the Dahlia notes. Osborn found that the handwriting evidence did not show that George Hodel wrote the notes. That is, Osborn ruled the comparison "inconclusive". The show reported that the LAPD's handwriting expert came back with the same opinion. (Add to that the handwriting expert hired by Court TV, who was described on that show as having found the handwriting evidence "inconclusive at best", and that's three independent handwriting experts who had the same conclusions. Only the handwriting expert that Steve Hodel used for his book found a probable match.)
-- The show hired a forensic facial-recognition expert to confirm what seem to be obvious to nearly everyone but Steve Hodel: the photos in his father's photo album are not Elizabeth Short. Using facial-recognition software to compare a known photo of Short to the photo of the bare-shouldered woman that Steve Hodel claims is Short, the expert concluded that there was an 85% probability that they were NOT photos of the same person. (Even Steve Hodel seems to have given up claiming that the other picture he has is Short; that one doesn't even resemble the bare-shouldered woman, let alone known pictures of Short.)
Unlike other media profiles on Steve Hodel, "48 Hours" made no mention of Hodel's attempt to tie his father to other crimes, most notably the Jeanne French murder, except to mention very briefly at the very end of the show that he suspected his father of 30 other murders.
This may have been because Hodel presents his father's handwriting as key evidence linking him to the Jeanne French case, and their expert did not back up Hodel's handwriting claims. It may have also been because, if they examined the LAPD and DA investigation files, they may have found that George Hodel can be ruled out as the killer of Jeanne Short on physical evidence. Larry Harnisch has part of the DA investigator's report on the Jeanne French murder posted on his website.
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Eliza Cline
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 10:48 pm: |
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I don't think Hodel can be ruled out as a suspect in the French murder. According to Steve Hodel's own theory, his father may have had an accomplice, Fred Sexton--a shorter man--which would account for the smaller shoe size.
In regard to the handwriting analysis, it looks to my untrained eye as though some of the "Dahlia Avenger" letters were written by a right handed man using his left hand, or vice versa. I tried writing with my left hand and came up with a similar kind of shaky writing. Other Avenger letters look like normal handwriting--most notably the "here it is--" letter. That letter seems to resemble Hodel's handwriting very closely. If this is true it may account for the handwriting experts' confusion.
ERey, I doubt that the LAPD ever let Jim Richardson listen to the Dahlia tapes. For one thing, the tapes were made as a result of the DA's Office's own investigation, not the LAPD. And it just seems to me that if Richardson had denied that the voice he heard was Hodel's, it would have been noted in the Hodel case file. |
ERey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 6:12 pm: |
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Steve Hodel describes his father's friend Fred Sexton as "six foot one, 180 pounds" (page 225 of the paperback). He describes his father as "six foot one, trim at about 165 pounds" (page 224).
I doubt Sexton wore men's size 6 or 7 shoes (for our non-US readers: I don't know what that is in European sizes, but it's a good bit smaller than average), as the DA's report described the person who stomped Jeanne French to death as wearing. Also, you'll notice the DA's report says French was last seen in the company of a "medium-small" man, presumably their chief suspect for her killer.
My point about Jim Richardson is that almost all we know about the investigation of George Hodel comes from Steve Hodel, who has been proven to be, for all practical purposes when it comes to this subject, a liar. |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 414
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 7:50 pm: |
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Someone who is five and a half feet tall wears roughly size 8 - 10 size men shoes, depending upon the width of the foot and other factors. If the person who stomped on Jeanne French had size 6 or 7 shoes, you'd expect him to be maybe 8 to 10 inches shorter than Hodel's father or father's friend. This assumes shoe sizes haven't changed appreciably since the time of her murder.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 271
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 9:48 pm: |
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Steve Hodel has proved to be a liar? Where is this proof? |
ERey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 5:10 pm: |
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Dan -- I guess we need a shoe-sizing expert to know for sure, but I asked my dad, who is in his 70s, if he had noticed any change in the sizing of men's shoes in his lifetime and he said he hadn't. He mentioned that he started wearing a size larger than he always had about 10 years ago, but chalked that up to his feet getting bigger with age. Also, in my experience, most shoes stores don't carry men's sizes smaller than 7, so you have to figure that's getting toward the tail-end of the bell curve.
Tom -- I've taken issue with the veracity of Steve Hodel's claims fairly extensively on this thread, starting with a long posting on June 26, 2003. I've got lots more on him, but I fear that from the point of view of our other participants, this horse I'm flogging may already be dead. If you want to discuss it further privately, clicking on "ERey" will get you a legit email address that I check fairly regularly. |
Eliza Cline
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 10:53 pm: |
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Hodel has not been proved a liar, although he is clearly guilty of overreaching and exaggeration. His mis-identification of Short in his father's photo album is one example. He also claims that his father was the "Barnes" that was identified checking into the L.A. hotel with Short. "Barnes" was actually a younger man (and may have been Ed Burns, a man Short dated in 1946).
These errors were so offputting to me that at first I dismissed his theory. But once I started to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak, I realized there is a pretty good circumstantial case that Hodel was a serial killer.
Hodel had the requisite surgical skill; lived close to the crime scene; drove a black sedan like the one identified at the crime scene; had printing proof-sheets like the ones the killer sent to police; was identified by an acquaintance as having known Beth Short; has handwriting very similar to some of the "Avenger" letters; a black watch found near the crime scene matched the description of a watch he owned.
In regard to some of the other killings: The purse of victim Jean Spangler was found at Fern Dell Park, a few blocks from Hodel's home. Victim Gladys Kern was murdered in a vacant house a few blocks from his home (the suspect was a "curly haired latin type" as Hodel was); the Avennger letters were mailed just down the street from his home. Rosa Mondragon was murdered a few miles from his home, the suspect being a "dark wavy haired man." His own secretary died under suspicious circumstances.
Then there are the tapes, where Hodel makes incriminating statements (supposin' I did kill her...they couldn't prove it now, etc.) His son's errors aside, Hodel is clearly a strong suspect.
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 72
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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Hi all
Are we all getting excited about the two Dahlia movies coming out this year? Hope they're not disappointing. I say movies because I think one might be direct to video. The one that leaves the case unsolved gets my vote. That was one of the few good things about the TV movie and about the only bad thing about "True Confessions". Producers seem to have a problem with that though because they think audiences won't like the work without a nice neat ending. In this case, it would spoil the story for me.
Regards,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
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P.S.
When Hodel put that picture out, claiming it was E.S., he must have thought we were all stupid.
Maybe I'm not the first to bring it up but my pet theory is that she was killed during the production of a snuff film. Makes for the best story in my view anyway.
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 616
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 8:52 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Did they have snuff porn films in 1947?
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 74
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 9:31 pm: |
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Hi Jeff
I wouldn't be surprised but snuff films are kind of an urban legend, even today. Notice I said "pet theory".
There were some real creeps out there in that era, Northcott being the worst in my view. He'd been hanged 17 years previous but he's an example of the perverts who seemed to gravitate to that region.
Are you looking forward to the Dahlia movies?
Bye the way, was the book I referred to on the Axeman case the one you were using as a source for New Orleans murders?
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 618
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 8:32 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I have seen TRUE CONFESSIONS and the television film made with Lucie Arnaz. I don't know if I will see the new Dahlia film - recently I recently saw some of the photos of poor Elizabeth's body and face after that creep got at her. He gave her a death head! Not as horrific as the shots of Mary Kelly, but close enough (in fact I may have written that on the FIND A GRAVE website when writing about Elizabeth's grave).
I was referring to the Tallant book. I really have not looked deeply into any of Tallent's cases, but I suspected (on the whole) they were factually correct - at least until I read your message a few days ago.
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 78
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 9:34 pm: |
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Jeff
Yes, I've also seen the E.S. post-mortem shots. When I wrote about the case for AMW News Magazine, I made a point of the bruises on each side of the bridge of her nose and took that as an indication that she was wearing sunglasses went she was first struck. This would suggest that the attack commenced when she was either outdoors or in a car. They could have been eyeglasses but I don't think she would wear them in front of a man if she ever wore any at all. Just a thought.
Stan |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 350
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 12:14 am: |
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Folks...
Regarding Stan's answer to Jeff's question...about snuff films...
150 yards from where I work, a woman's body was discovered a few months back....A girl who was from Michigan who was found wrapped in the material from a movie screen and rolled down an embankment on the Schuykill River, in Conshohocken,Pa.. Some bicyclists on a bike-path saw the "bundle"...told the police...traced the girl back to the bondage-film maker who lived close to where I work...and nailed him and a female accomplice for murder. This was a case of a bondage film-turned-snuff film.
Apparently,the woman didn't want to participate in certain humiliations on screen and the loathsome Lothario couldn't control himself and in a frenzy...killed her.
As much as I would hope Stan Reid was correct...in reality,there may be other similar cases that slip past the radar. The two culprits in this case were caught specifically because they were so damned stupid....others may not be. |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 79
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 1:07 am: |
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Hi Howard
I remember that case from the news but didn't really know exactly what the final outcome was. Of course, Lake and Ng made some sort of snuff films for there own use as well.
Stan |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 643
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 2:00 am: |
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The problem with determining what's a snuff film is picking a definition.
If it's just someone dying on camera, then, yeah, there a bunch of those. If it's intentionally killing someone on camera, there are still quite a few.
If it's a video or film of someone performing sex acts and getting killed, the numbers are a lot lower, but there are some here and there. Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka, among others, did that.
Usually though when snuff films are being discussed (politically or for discussing urban legends, anyway) the definition used is someone being intentionally killed specifically for the purpose of showing or selling the video or film to outside parties who would gain sexual pleasure out of watching it. Now that's an entirely different thing. As far as I know, nothing like that has ever been discovered.
The way I've heard it explained is that it isn't actually a snuff film unless it's a) sexual (so Iraqis beheading a prisoner on TV wouldn't count), b) the death wouldn't have happened if the camera had stopped working (rules out lots right there), and c) created for other people (Bernardo & Homolka were doing it for themselves).
I personally think c is kind of an iffy criteria but that a and b are fairly necessary to rule out deaths with completely different motivations.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 80
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 8:01 am: |
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Hi Dan
Yes, I've seen the beginnings of one of the Bernardo/Homolka tapes and it would be of a similar type to Lake and Ng. I haven't seen either to their conclusions and don't really want to. I know in the case of Ng's trial, many of the jury members had to go into psychiatric treatment after they were forced to view the tapes in the proceedings.
Regards,
Stan
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 81
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 9:52 am: |
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Hi all
Back to the topic of past and present Dahlia films; it was reported that actors Jack Webb and Tom Neal were in the planning stages of making a movie about the murder back in the early 60s. The project faltered when Neal was charged with killing his own wife. In an amazing coincidence, actor Franchot Tone was a witness in both the Neal and Elizabeth Short cases.
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on April 30, 2005) |
ERey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
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Hi, Stan. It's good to see a little activity on this thread again.
I can't say I'm particularly looking forward to either of the two Black Dahlia movies in production at the moment. Fictionalized treatments of the story don't really interest me much -- maybe because so much of the "nonfiction" written about the case is pure fiction anyway, it’s sort of superfluous.
Speaking of which, there is supposed to be a new nonfiction (or maybe it will be, yet again, "nonfiction", in quotes) out sometime soon, by Donald H. Wolfe, of the expectedly tabloidish title "The Black Dahlia Files: The Mob, the Mogul, and the Murder That Transfixed Los Angeles" (ISBN: 0060582499).
It was supposed to come out this month, but doesn't seem to actually exist yet. It's listed on the online bookseller sites, but the publisher doesn't seem to have heard of it:
http://www.harpercollins.com/imprints.asp?imprint=ReganBooks
I did, however, find this single advance review, in the online newsletter of an independent bookstore. They seem to be offline at the moment, but here is the text of the review:
"Donald Wolfe gained access to DA files regarding the famous Black Dahlia murder that had been closed for fifty years. Through laborious efforts he has determined that: the killer was a notorious Hollywood underworld figure, that a major LA public figure had a hand in the murder (and a secret relationship with the victim), that a shadowy doctor played an intricate part in the murder, and the extent of the corruption certain LAPD officers sanctioned in covering it all up. This is no conspiracy peddling, assumptive work, but one that will leave you agape at the seamy underbelly of Los Angeles in the 1950’s [sic]."
Hmmm... well, we'll see.
By the way, Stan, I agree with you completely about Steve Hodel. Either the man is a fool himself or he counted on selling his book to fools. I know what my guess would be. You know what they say about one being born every minute.
I've been meaning to deal with Eliza Cline's last post in support of the "circumstantial case" against Steve Hodel's father, but I haven't gotten around to it. A wet blanket's work is never done, I guess. For starters, a black sedan may be a black sedan, and a low-quality photo from the proper angle may seem to make one resemble another, but in real life a Packard was about as likely to be mistaken for a beat-up old Ford as... well, as the women in Steve Hodel's pictures were for Elizabeth Short. This is just more of Steve Hodel's chicanery. As usual, he assumes total ignorance on the part of his audience. Start with a little knowledge or do a little research and, once again, his game falls apart. |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 82
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
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Hi ERey
Thanks for the head's up on the book. I'll keep an eye out for it. It sounds like a bunch of old theories thrown into a pot but perhaps not. Regarding the tabloid like title, at least it's not "Shady Lady Comes to Sticky End".
Cheers,
Stan |
William T. Rasmussen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 2:06 pm: |
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See: CORROBORATING EVIDENCE, by William T. Rasmussen, published by Sunstone Press (2004)
ISBN 0-86534-440-X
www.williamtrasmussen.com
First Revised Epilogue to CORROBORATING EVIDENCE due for release in July, 2005. Evidence located that indicates Elizabeth Short may have mentioned the first name of her killer six days before she was murdered. Elizabeth Short linked to the murder/dismemberment of six-year-old Suzanne Degnan in Chicago, January 7, 1946. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1533
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 1:57 pm: |
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MEDIA ALERT. From promos, it appears that "48 Hours" tonight will feature Steve Hodel making his claim that his father was the Black Dahlia murderer. Should be interesting. Let's see how padded and how truthful the segment is.
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 158
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 7:17 pm: |
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Hi William,
William Heirens is still in prison for killing Degnan. He was incarcerated by the time Short was murdered. Is the suggestion that he didn't kill Degnan or has someone gotten their dates mixed up?
Best regards,
Stan |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 373
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
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Chris,
I don't have an antenna (my TV is just for DVDs), so keep us updated on that. I've read Hodel's book and find it a very good (if not totally objective) piece of research.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1542
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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Hi Tom
The CBS 48 Hours special was nicely done in terms of period details, pictures of old Hollywood, and in giving us an outside shot of the top floor apartment where Beth Short lived with several other girls and now-housing estate that was the location of the empty lot where her severed body was found. They also filmed at the actual luxury house where Dr. Hodel had lived, and you got chills thinking what a pervert he was, having sex with his own 14-year-old daughter, Steve Hodel's sister, and having a parade of girls through the house that were seduced by the doctor and his Hollywood cronies. It was also established that Hodel was on a list of suspects and apparently actively surveillanced by the LAPD: he was tailed and eavesdropping equipment was secretly placed in his house; in one recording, a transcript of which still exists, Hodel apparently referenced the Black Dahlia case and may have joked that he got away with the crime. I am sure you will remember that from the book.
The implication was that Hodel made a pay-off to the LA police to hush the crime up, the department at that date, 1947-1950, being infamous for its rampant corruption. The special indicated that he did get away with a not guilty judgement in the case of incest brought against him for having sex with his under-age daughter. The LA police for their part claim today that the doctor was only one of a long list of suspects in the Black Dahlia case, including a number of doctors. In addition, despite claims that Dr. Hodel knew Beth Short, this was not borne out by evidence actually in the LAPD files it seems.
Son Hodel's case fell down when one of two close-up photographs in a small album of photos which he insists shows Ms. Short in life was not confirmed as being the victim by a British woman photo-fit expert (I see no resemblance either), and nor was the writing on the communications sent by the killer confirmed to match Dr. Hodel's writing by an American male handwriting expert despite the son's insistence that it was his father's writing. Both experts, hired by 48 Hours, failed to confirm Hodel's contention and he was left blubbering "But it's true" that his father was the Black Dahlia killer.
Steve Carr of the LA D.A.'s office and author James Ellroy seem convinced by Hodel's case for his father as the killer of Beth Short, for whatever their opinions are worth.
It appears to me as with Ripper authors who let the case for their suspects get the better of them, Steve Hodel is in much the same situation, insisting on his suspect's candidacy when evidence does not entirely back him up. It was also said that the son claims his father committed up to thirty other murders, though of course no evidence was produced. So, certainly the rather nasty Dr. Hodel was a dirty old man, but the Black Dahlia killer...????
Tom, I hope this helps fill you in on the TV special. As I said, you will probably know much of this information from the book. The 48 Hours special laid out an interesting and some ways attractive case for Dr. Hodel as the killer but in no way a conclusive one.
All my best
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on June 08, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 161
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
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Hi all;
I saw some who in the program but not much why, what, where and how. I'm not a tout for John Gilmore by any means but at least he makes an attempt to answer those questions in his book. Until Hodel does that, he's going to just look like another guy trying to hop on the Black Dahlia bandwagon. Another thing the program gave scant coverage to is the lengthy roster of other women he accuses his father of murdering. Was it because they were afraid it would make him look less credible?
Best regards,
Stan |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 375
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 10:01 pm: |
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Chris and Stan,
I totally agree that at least one of the two photos Hodel produces as being Best Short is certainly not. The other MIGHT be, but it's hardly conclusive. The nose sure is right on, though. The fact that it was THESE photos that started him on his journey of suspicion is the weakest point in his case. I empathize with him, though, because that journey led to the discovery that his father was, in fact, a Dahlia suspect, among other unflattering things, such as what you mention in your post. Nevertheless, his research skills are impressive, as displayed in his book, even if one isn't totally convinced by his suspect. I also think he makes a solid argument for the Dahlia not being a one-off killing, but one in a series, even if he stretches the body count a bit far.
I have a video with a bunch of documentaries and news spots on the Dahlia, including one video that basically follows John Gilmore around for 2 hours talking about James Dean, Manson, and a bit about the Dahlia. It's a horrible video, but it shows the Manson crime scene photos totally uncensored. Mortuary shots as well. Most I'd never seen before. Scary stuff. I'll probably get the 48 hours tape bootleg, but it doesn't sound like it has much not already in the book or on his website.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
ERey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
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Chris,
Please be careful not to confuse actual facts with the presumptive (but untrue) "facts" presented by the TV show. For example, one of those "period details" was the implication -- if not the explicit statement (I can't recall if "48 Hours" stated explicitly or not; I know another dubious "news" show did) -- that Elizabeth Short celebrated V-J Day in Los Angeles. In fact, according to multiple sources, Short was in Medford, MA, with her family, at the time. She would not arrive in Los Angeles until nearly a year later.
Likewise, it is not a matter of established fact that George Hodel had sex with his 14-year-old daughter. He was tried and acquitted of incest, with the defense making a convincing case that the daughter doing the accusing was a pathological liar with a history of making up stories about her supposed sexual encounters. (See here for a summary contemporaneous newspaper accounts the incest trial and here for scans of the actual newspaper stories.) While being a pathological liar is hardly mutually exclusive of being a victim of sexual abuse, the fact is we simply cannot know what really happened. For what it is worth, Hodel's daughter from a subsequent marriage has defended him in print, as has an ex-wife.
Frankly, I found the incest-accusing daughter's additional lurid recollections, such as seeing women literally standing in line outside her father's bedroom, waiting to receive his sexual attentions, to be farfetched to say the least. (Ironically, the transcripts of audio surveillance of the Hodel home included in the book show that the senior Hodel could not manage to satisfy even one girlfriend -- he begs off her advances, complaining of being too tired! ...and generally sounds much more like a very ordinary middle-aged man than the evil sexual superman that two of his offspring are eager to portrait him as.)
Another telling thing about the show was the large amount of air time given to (has-been?) singer Michelle Phillips. If you read the book, you know Phillips has no firsthand knowledge of most of the events she described. As to her "frightening" encounter with George Hodel years later, the description of this given in the book makes no intimation that this was anything other than a pleasant night out. But when the cameras were rolling, somehow the story got a whole lot juicier.
As I said when this show first aired in November, they did bring forward a number of interesting points, but these were outnumbered by typically credulous fluff and some familiar riffs on Steve Hodel's usual litigation-proof slander. (I trust you noted that not one of the people accused on the show of misdeeds or indiscretions is still on this side of the sod -- that is, able to sue for libel. Somehow I doubt that's a coincidence.)
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ERey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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I believe the "48 Hours" program on Hodel is just a repeat of one that aired last November. I posted a summary of that show on this thread on December 3, 2004.
By the way, I must demur at Tom Wescott's characterization of Hodel's book as a good piece of research. I found it to be mendacious garbage, and I've said why.
Making up phony evidence and lying about facts and events is not the hallmark of good research by my lights. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1545
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 3:10 pm: |
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Hi ERay
Thanks for your input. Much appreciated. The special did paint Dr. Hodel as a kind of Bluebeard. I also noted that they showed him in old age, as a rather innocuous old geezer, in San Francisco with a lady, and she was not interviewed and nor was anyone else who knew him in his later years. It is rather sad that authors with a suspect try to paint the suspect in the worst light possible, and of course it is in the interests of the TV producers to follow along. To give the producers of 48 Hours their due, however, they did hire the handwriting expert and the photofit authority and they respectively disagreed with Steve Hodel's conclusions about the photograph being Beth Short and about the killer's handwriting matching his father's. For me, that punched substantial holes in his case.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 163
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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Hello gentlemen,
Yes ERey, that was a repeat show. I quickly withdrew my finger from the DVD record button when I saw the first 10 seconds.
The assertion that your deceased father was the "Avenger" seems to be a popular pastime in Southern California of late. Hodel's tale is a little better than Janice Knowlton's but not much.
I once saw an author on the Unsolved Mysteries TV progam making the case that Short's killer was the same man responsible for the Cleveland Torso Slayings and I know he wasn't the first say that. I'm not sure if he wrote a book about it or not but I would very much tend to rule that theory out as well. Steven Nickel mentions E.S. in his excellent book about the Torso killings but only to tell of others' attempts to connect the two cases. I've even seen some try to associate her slaying with the 1946 Texarkana so-called Moonlight Murders.
My main problem with these theories is the car seen at the dump site. It seems too lowly for a L.A. doctor and too nice for a derelict like Jack Wilson. I should expect that the killer must be a poorly educated low-life but not a lower class individual.
Best regards,
Stan |
William T. Rasmussen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 4:06 pm: |
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Stan;
I don't believe William Heirens killed Suzanne Degnan. I also believe the same person that killed the Black Dahlia may have killed Suzanne Degnan and was responsible for the Cleveland Torso Murders (1935-1938) and other murder/dismemberments in McKees Rocks, New Castle, West Pittsburg and Youngstown between 1938-1942.
Suzanne Degnan was killed January 7, 1946. Elizabeth Short was in Chicago "reporting on" and "terribly obsessed with the murder of Suzanne Degnan" sometime between June-Aug.,1946.
Heirens was in prison when the Black Dahlia was killed January 14, 1947.
Suzanne Degnan was "expertly dismembered" and the Black Dahlia was severed by someone "with the finnesse of a surgeon." In other words both victims were either dismembered or severed by someone who knew exactly what they were doing. The clues and evidence that I have discovered point in the direction of the same person Los Angeles Detective John St. John thought was responsible for the murder of the Black Dahlia.
I anticipate the First Revised Epilogue to "Corroborating Evidence" will be released sometime in July, 2005.
William T. Rasmussen |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1547
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 11:44 am: |
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Hi Mr. Rasmussen
Thanks for your view. If I might say so, I would think it unlikely that the same killer was responsible for all the crimes that you mention. Despite the fact that dismemberment is a feature in all those cases, there were also distinctive differences between the Black Dahlia and those other crimes. Your approach reminds me of R. Michael Gordon's attempt to pin the Thames torso murders plus the Ripper crimes and American crimes all on George Chapman (Severin Klosowski), also an unlikely scenario.
All the best
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 166
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
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Hi William,
You sound like you go along with Detective Peter Merylo who tallied up forty some murders for the Torso Slayer starting in the 1920s and ending in the 1950s. I would tend to disagree but I don't rule out any but the most ludicrous theories. The recent one about Orson Welles being the "Avenger" is very close to my line.
On December 9, 1992, I saw Lawrence Scherb on Unsolved Mysteries make this connection and he was supposed to be writhing a book on the topic. I've never seen it if it was ever finished. How do you feel about the other so-called "Werewolf" murders of the era like French and Bauerdorf?
Perhaps you should contact author Dolores Kennedy. She's been trying to get Heirens out of prison from some time now. He's not far from beginning his seventh decade of incarceration.
I'm not sure I'd refer to Short's bisection as expert. I think anyone of normal intelligence would part a body in the region between the rib cage and the hips at the intersection of two vertebrae then cut straight through. The main argument against E.S. being done by Torso is that she was not decapitated.
As an aside, my dad was at Camp Cooke when Short was there but he says, although he probably saw her at some time or other, he doesn't specifically remember her.
Best regards,
Stan
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Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 127
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 11:44 am: |
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Mr. Rasmussen,
Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Los Angeles Detective John St. John think Arnold Smith (Jack Anderson Wilson) was responsible for the murder of the Black Dahlia?
Kevin
(Message edited by kbraun on June 11, 2005) |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 605
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
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Stan,
my dad was at Camp Cooke when Short was there but he says, although he probably saw her at some time or other, he doesn't specifically remember her.
Well, you've just ruined any chance you had to "pull a Hodel." 
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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william T. Rasmussen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 2:44 pm: |
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Christopher,
I suspect that you did not read "CORROBORATING EVIDENCE" before you made a comparison of my book to Mr. Gordan's attempt to pin the Thames torso murders plus the Ripper crimes etc.
Here is a sample of the significant number of clues I uncovered:
Cleveland police Records, 1937:
"Detective Musil and I received information from a person who does not want her identity revealed and who stated that while she was in the workhouse a woman by the name of Helen O'Leary, who was a former wife of a man who was shot and killed several years ago-since got married to Gas House O'Malley, a stage hand, told her that she knew the man that killed Florence Polillo. She asked him who it was and she said "You know, his name is Jack Wilson." We learned from the informer that Jack Wilson was a former butcher and worked for Sam who operated a grocery store and meat market on St. Clair Avenue, and that he was known to carry a large butcher knife. Informant also stated that this Wilson was a sodomist, and that he committed sodomy on a number of persons known by the informant and is committing these decapitated (sic) murders in Kingsbury Run and may be killing them for the purpose of committing Sodomy on the victims, and would be a good suspect in the above murder(Pages 96-97, CORROBORATING EVIDENCE)
Years later, in Los Angeles, after the Black Dahlia was murdered and expertly severed, Los Angeles Detective John St. John's prime suspect was a fellow by the name of Jack Wilson, a convicted sodomist from Canton, Ohio who is known to have been in Cleveland at or around the time Flo Polillo was murdered and expertly dismembered.
The Cleveland Police received a letter that may have been written by the Cleveland Torso Killer postmarked December 22, 1938, from Los Angeles. The letter reads in part:
"You can rest easy now as I have come out to sunny California for the winter..." What the Cleveland detectives found interesting about the letter is how the writer knew the Cleveland Torso Murders had ended.
On April 1, 2005, America's Most Wanted wrote a letter to me concerning "CORROBORATING EVIDENCE" The letter reads in part:
"The connections you made between each victim in your book was very insightful"
Christopher,if your opinion is the same after you read my book and the First Revised Epilogue that is due to be published soon,then so be it.
I think I am on the right track here and would appreciate finding out any other similarities or connections between the Cleveland Torso Murders, the murder of the Black Dahlia and the murder of Suzanne Degnan that are not already outlined in my text.
William Heirens did not kill Suzanne Degnan and if, for example, Jack Wilson can be placed in Chicago in between 1945-1946, then other evidence may be uncovered that directly connects him to the Degnan murder.
William T. Rasmussen
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ERey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
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Chris, the lady seen in photos with the "geezer" George Hodel is no doubt his widow, who, Steve Hodel reports, was apparently happily married to him for something like 30 years and was deeply grieved by his death. Steve says that she no longer speaks to him since he started accusing his father of being a murderer. Big surprise, there.
Also not heard from were Ms. Short's family, who have stated unequivocally that Hodel's pictures are "definitely not Betty" and have denounced Hodel's book as baseless exploitation.
I agree that the show was an odd combination of credulous lionization and "gotcha" fact-finding. As you say, they shoot down Hodel's biggest pieces of evidence (the photos and the handwriting) and then make him look like a fool by sticking the camera in his face as he sputters "But my daddy DID do it!" when confronted with it. Yet they report some of his silliest and most groundless assertions -- like they idea that Man Ray's art somehow inspired the evil doctor to murder (not only fanciful on the face of it, but propped up by phony "facts") -- as if they had validity.
By the way, Tom, the photo that the facial recognition expert examined and found not to be Short was the one you felt might be Short. She mentioned some similarity in the nose, but that was about the end of the resemblance. I find myself baffled as to how you can praise Hodel's research skill while admitting he is so obviously unable to correctly identify this most basic element of his case.
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