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Message |
    
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 104
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 10:30 am: | 
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Hi, all:
Although Patricia Cornwell is not mentioned in the following article, it is evident that the investigators are trying to do the same thing Cornwell attempted to do in the Ripper case--to link letters sent to the authorities with the DNA of local physician-surgeon, Francis E. Sweeney, the man suspected of the murders by Cleveland safety director, Eliot Ness,
The Torso Murders - 65 years later
All the best
Chris |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 54
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 6:43 pm: |
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Hi Chris
Many thanks for posting this as the Butcher of Kingsbury Run is another case that interests me. Apart from JTR, the Cleveland case and the Bogle-Chandler case are the ones that hold my interest the most. I wonder if DNA analysis has been contemplated in more recent cases where letters played a part- I'm thinking in particular of the Zodiac killer
Regards
Chris S
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Gary Weatherhead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 8:14 pm: |
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Chris
Please elaborate if you could on the Bogle-Chandler case. I may have missed a good unsolved murder and I can't allow that.
Best Regards
Gary |
Gary weatherhead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 8:32 pm: |
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P.S.
Does this case in any way reesemble the Hall-Mills murder case? Perhaps better known as the preacher and the choir singer.
Gary |
Mark Stone
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 3:05 am: |
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We've just released "Eliot Ness and the Torso Murders," a feature length documentary. For more about it visit www.storytellersmediagroup.com. Great to see there is continuing interest in this case, and that you're keeping up with the latest.
Mark |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 62
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 6:55 pm: |
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Hi. Mark
There is definite interest in this case on the part of many people whom I have talked to.
The most interesting aspect for me is the fact that the Torso killer was a sexual sadist who killed his victims by begining the decapitation process before the victim was dead. Like the Dahlia killer he enjoyed inflicting pain and perhaps humiliation on his victims.
Imagine being decapitated while alive. Even if the victim was unconscious this method of killing is horrible to contemplate.
The Ripper killed his victims and then mutilated them. He was what I have heard described as a bop and drop killer who killed his victims at the outset and took his pleasure in post mortem mutilations.
Best
Gary |
Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 74
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 3:46 am: |
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Gary - The Bogle-Chandler case is a superb unsolved Australian murder of 1963. The naked bodies of Stanley Bogle and Margaret Chandler were found after a New Year's Eve party in Sydney. Neither motive nor suspect was ever satisfactorily established. As Bogle was a government research scietntist, it was even suggested that this could have been a KGB-sponsored killing.
And Gary - what evidence was there from the two halves of Elizabeth Short that her killer tortured her? Were the BD initials carved on her thigh before she died?
All the best,
Martin F |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 64
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 4:44 am: |
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Hi. Martin
Thanks for the info on the Bogle- Chandler case,I will look it up.
As for Beth Short, it is very unpleasant but here goes. She had rope burns on her wrists and ankles indicating she was suspended and tortured before she died. She suffered repeated blows to her head and face while still alive. The morgue picture of her face shows a broken nose and numerous cuts and bruises which had apparently bled during her ordeal. These blows were sufficient to contuse her brain which was listed in the autopsy as a possible contributing cause of death. She had her mouth slashed in a sick ear to ear grin and blood loss from this wound was said to be the main cause of death. She was forced to eat human excrement which was found to be amongst her stomach contents.
I cannot say for sure as to whether she was dead or alive when the B.D. was cut into her body. Nevertheless she had grass and parts of her flesh inserted into the vagina cavity.
All The Best
Gary |
Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 76
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 10:56 am: |
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Yuk! My memory quietly censors out these nastinesses when I'm reading about mysterious unsolved murders, unless, as in the Jonbenet Ramsey case, the double injury looks like a serious clue. Though I will often remember feeling decidedly sickened by some particular serialists - Henry Lee Lucas & Ottiss Toole; Bundy; the Wests).
All the best,
Martin F |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 67
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 11:35 am: |
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Hi. Martin
My mind filters out this kind of of stuff as well and I believe I look at it with a sort of clinical detachment when I see it. This allows me to take it in and process it for analysis and then leave it alone without being sickened.
The one thing I cannot handle are child murders like Jonbenet Ramsey.
There can't be anything worse than having a child pre-decease you and if they suffered at the hands of one of these sicko's....!!!
All The Best
Gary
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Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 234
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 12:51 pm: |
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Hi, Gary:
I may be wrong about this, but I keep an open mind about whether Beth Short was made to eat excrement or whether grass or parts of her flesh were forced into her vagina. As I understand it, the autopsy report has never been officially released. Since the body was sliced in two, it's possible that excrement mixed with parts of her body giving the illusion she had eaten excrement, and the grass might have come from the crime scene, not have been inserted purposely by the killer. I am not meaning to diminish whatever torture Beth Short may have been submitted to, and agree that the murderer was a vicious and sadistic killer, but just want to point out that the excrement and grass stories related by some authors on the case might be misleading.
All the best
Chris |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 70
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 2:01 pm: |
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Hi Chris
The excrement was said to have been in her stomach contents. The grass was stuffed in her vagina with apparent force along with pieces of flesh cut from her body
I believe portions of the autopsy report have been made public or unearthed by the authors
I will double check to make sure as I believe I have everthing written on Beth Short as well as a rare documentary by Kyle J. Wood.
You raise some points that are worth looking into, however. I question just about everthing I read too. Now If we could only get the author's to do likewise in an objective way.....
All The Best
Gary
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 73
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 4:04 pm: |
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Hi Chris
Let me clarify a point about the autopsy. Most of the information in the autopsy came out during the inquest. Some vital information that only the killer would have known was held back to weed out the confssing Sams'. This information involved her immature vagina which would have made sex impossible.
Best
Gary |
cam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 4:46 am: |
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hey all
could you plz give me all ur info on the Bogle/Chandler murder case thanks cam
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Kerri
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 5:34 pm: |
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Wow this is great, finally some other people who find this stuff interesting. Anyway I am a student of Criminal Justice in West Virginia. I am doing a power point presentation on the Cleveland Torso Murders (The Butcher of Kingsbury Run)and The Black Dahlia Murder. I am in search of crime scene photos, autopsy photos, or any other type of visual data. There seems to be alot of written information, however I still need some type of photos. Please don't think that I am sick or something!!!! If anyonw knows of any websites that would help me please let me know. |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 421
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 2:28 am: |
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Hi Kerri
In the event it isn't too late to help you with your project- check out the Black Dahlia website and link up with the Los Angelas Examiner's photo library.
All The Best
Gary |
Erin Sigler
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 17
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 11:37 pm: |
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I've reading a great book on this case called In the Wake of the Butcher, and I'd like to get everyone's views on this case. To me it strongly resembles the Black Dahlia murder, but then I hear that Eliot Ness is claiming the murderer was committed to an asylum (shades of Anderson, anyone?). Also, does anyone care to provide a brief "profile" of the Butcher? A most curious case, and I'd enjoy hearing everyone's opinions on it. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 668
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 1:56 pm: |
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Hi, Erin
I will join you in recommending In the Wake of the Butcher by James Badal. Mr. Badal spoke at the last U.S. Jack the Ripper convention in Baltimore and his presentation was fascinating.
Erin, in my opinion, the resemblances between Black Dahlia case and the Cleveland Torso series of murders are at best superficial.
That is, although the body of Elizabeth Short was bisected and otherwise mutilated, to her face and torso, her corpse was not completely cut up as were the victims' bodies in the Cleveland crimes. In the Cleveland series, head removal was an especially noticeable feature, something that did not occur in the Los Angeles murder of Beth Short.
Also note that the Cleveland series was largely made up of male victims, though not exclusively so, which might suggest a homosexual did the crimes, and this is in sharp contrast with the murder of the young, attractive Elizabeth Short.
One area where there does appear to be similarity is that Beth Short's corpse appears to have been washed after her murder and the Cleveland cases also featured washing of the bodies. My inclination is to think, though, that the murderers were different.
Even so, both Black Dahlia and Cleveland do present us with fascinating crimes to study and compare, to some extent, with the Ripper case.
Best regards
Chris George |
Erin Sigler
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 18
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 2:13 pm: |
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Interesting stuff--thanks Chris!
Based on what I've read so far I get the impression that the killer may have been bisexual, had some kind of medical knowledge, and probably had his own place. I haven't decided yet if he was actually mentally ill or just a sexual sadist. There are both organized and disorganized elements to the crimes, and while I tend to lean more toward the organized side I do see some evidence of a psychopathology that goes beyond simple anti-social tendencies.
Any thoughts? I realize that most of the things I've suggested are pretty basic, so I'm sure when I finish the book my ideas will be a little more developed. |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 585
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 6:43 am: |
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Hi Erin and Chris
It has always been especially interesting to me that the 'Torso Killer' not only removed the heads, presumably to hinder the police in identifying the victims, he began the process of removing the heads while the victims were still alive.
I believe the Torso Killer was a more organized type of offender than many others we have come across. I say this because he took pains to make sure the victims were never identified and he accomplished his goal for the most part. He strikes me as an older and more intelligent serial killer than most.
All The Best
Gary |
Erin Sigler
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 19
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 11:48 pm: |
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Now that I've nearly finished the book, Gary, I would tend to agree with you. I see the Butcher as a sexual sadist. I've read about mutilation murders before, but most seem to occur purely to delay or avoid victim identification. There was nothing utilitarian about the emasculation of the first two victims. As the rope burns on Andrassy's wrists show, the Butcher was clearly into seeing people suffer and shocking whomever might stumble onto the body parts he left behind.
I find it curious that he chose both male and female victims, since most serial killers seem to stick to one or the other. This could point to the killer's possible bisexuality, since there is clearly a sexual component to the murders, particularly where the men are concerned.
As far as suspects are concerned, I find Sweeney a little dissatisfying. My mind keeps going back to the man who admitted photographing Andrassy and possibly the "Tattooed Man." I think the police should have taken a much harder look at him, whether he had medical training or not. There was clearly something "off" about him. At any rate, perhaps the new DNA tests will come to something. As much fun as these unsolved cases are for us, I would much rather the victims had justice, even if it is long after the fact. |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 960
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 4:23 pm: |
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Erin
I have always been fascinated by this case, so I have bookmarked about twenty web-sites detailing this case and am going to study it in depth for a week or so.
I think it to have great import to the case we discuss here. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 673
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 5:30 pm: |
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Hi, Gary, AP, and Erin:
I would agree that the Cleveland Torso killer would appear to have been an organized offender based on everything that we know about him, and yes, his choice of both male and female victims might suggest he was bisexual, or at the least that he enjoyed seeing his victims suffer no matter what their sex was.
As for the inability to identify the majority of his victims, wasn't this more because the victims appeared to be hobos or drifters? When he was operating in the 1930's, there was a large population of homeless men on the move in the United States as a result of the Depression following the Wall Street Crash of 1929. Remember, most of the bodies were found near the homeless camp in the Kingsbury Run valley, which Cleveland Safety Director Eliot Ness ordered to be burned, for better or worse.
All the best
Chris George |
Erin Sigler
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 21
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 12:55 am: |
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A.P., please let me know what you find. The only in-depth study on the Torso murders that I've found on the internet is the one at Crime Library. You might considering getting the Badal book; it's short and quite well-done, without a lot of unnecessary speculation on the author's part. By the way, as I was reading the book and posting here the image of your caged Grevy stallion kept popping into my head for some reason. . . .
How do you all think the Butcher lured and incapacitated his victims? With the women it's fairly obvious, but less so with the men. I was thinking perhaps he offered them work, but that doesn't explain how he was able to restrain them. Drugs were found only in the body of one victim, and there didn't appear to be marks on the victims indicating they'd been knocked unconscious. Perhaps, like J.W. Gacy, he persuaded them to take part in some kind of "trick," although I have trouble believing anyone as street-wise as, say, Andrassy (who wasn't homeless, curiously enough, and neither was Flo Pollilo), would fall for such an obvious ploy. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 675
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 11:48 am: |
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Hi, Erin
As to how the Torso Killer lured his victims, I should think the promise of money or a place to stay would be a safe bet if as I stated in my last post most of the victims were homeless men. If I am right this would probably mean that the killer himself was not a homeless man, which we pretty much can assume anyway since he apparently had a place to carve up his victims.
All the best
Chris |
