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Message |
    
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 154
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 4:43 pm: | 
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So, what about it? What do people think of Sweeney Todd? Could his throat cutting have influenced Jack?
What about the eating of human meat pies? Could some of these same pies have been made from kidney?
I think they would taste "very nise" |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 647
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 6:20 am: |
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The details of this story are a little hazy. When exactly was this written? If before Jack's time then it is a possibility.
Sarah
Some more words to fill up the space |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 280
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 2:09 pm: |
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I am retyping this message, as the pop-ups are interfering with putting messages on this Board.
The novel, "A STRING OF PEARLS" was written by
Thomas Peckett Prest, about 1847, and introduced the character of Sweeney Todd to the public. About 1979/80 Keith Haring wrote a study of Sweeney Todd, and suggested that while there were several possible sources for the cannibal murderer
(such as the Scottish murderer Sawney Bean and his family in Galway), the actual germ for the murderous barber was a 1785 London barber who may have killed two people. But the story of the 1785 crimes was very vague (two small news items).
Jeff |
StephenLeece
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 10:02 pm: |
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Just to let you know as far as Sawney Bean as an inspiration for Sweeney Todd goes the stories are both mythical. I have come across two tales of Sawney Bean- one which says the crimes occured in 13th century Argyll, and the other states they occured in 18th century Argyll (Apparently Sawney was part of a Jacobite plot and was executed after a show trial in Edinburgh). I have found no evidence supporting either the 13th century or 18th century stories though. Sweeney Todd has more historical grounding (18th century, 2 victims I believe) but like JTR the public perception has more of a basis in myth than historical actuality. |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 744
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 12:22 pm: |
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Ahhh Sweeney Todd !!
Get you trousers on, you're nicked !!!
Fantastic...what, the wrong Sweeney ??
Read a book on him recently, last summer, that recent ?
Anyway, something in there about the catacombes in Fleet street way where hundreds of bits of human bones were found.
That true anyone ?
Monty...who did eat all the pies...very nise indeed thank you !
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Stephen Leece
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 3:20 pm: |
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There was abook I read years ago- if I find it I'll post the details for anyone who's intersted- there were catacombs under Fleet Street (the alleged site of Sweeney's Barber shop). I can not recall pieces of bone being found though. What was found was a sign saying 'Sweeney Todd Barbers'. However this turned out to be a modern hoax. Typical isn't it? |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 613
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 11:09 am: |
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Hi, all
One book on Sweeney Todd which I have it The Mystery and Horrible Murders of Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street by Peter Haining. According to Amazon, this may be out of print.
All my best
Chris |
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 164
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 11:25 am: |
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I have two different books by Peter Haining about Sweeney Todd . . . The second (printed in 1993) is much better than the first one. In the first he basically just glosses over the story as it is known, but in the second he actually digs into who Sweeney possibly was.
I'm actually in the middle of reading the second book right now. |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 749
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 11:46 am: |
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Kris,
Thats the one !!!
Mentions Jack Sheppard and Newgate prison doesnt it ?
Monty
25 word rule....Baggy trousers, dirty shirt, pulling hair and eating dirt!
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Paul Williams
Sergeant
Username: Wehrwulf
Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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I read Peter Haining's first book on Todd a long time ago. It is now out of print but a very good account, taken from it, is online at http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/todd/pit_2.html?sect=3 |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:29 pm: |
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i am actually writing an essay on sweeeney todd, now haining's book is probably a hoax but New Scotland Yard have information for me, i have to ring back tomorrow morning....this info concerns a barber who was hung for murder in 1802 after killing in his Fleet St shop....if i can get proof of this info then the demon barber is probably factual, i'll upload my essay soon |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:36 pm: |
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my essay is an in depth profile on todd, it has illustrations, trapdoor design , an illustration of his shop, shop interior; fleet st, all the twists and turns, it's food for thought, i've been writing it for about three years....is the demon barber fictional?...i used to think so but i dont now. |
Joshua St Johnston
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 9:02 am: |
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Malcolm,
Am just reading the Haining book, and am coming to the conclusion that it's fiction. Haining's references to and quotes from The Newgate Calendar seem entirely fictitious. Is everything else made up too? I'd be fascinated to know what you've found out, and what info you've got from New Scotland Yard. Any chance of a peek at your essay?
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Mal
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 2:54 pm: |
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hi Joshua
yes the Haining book is a hoax, based on the famous legend of Todd...i've checked out all haining's sources and they're all bogus...even today i was on the phone! never mind, my essay is a depiction of what he could have been like..its a sort of biography, its quite black as well...haining doesn't describe what todd's personality was like but my essay goes into great depth....
i will definitely upload it within two weeks here on this message string and all will be explained when you read it....we are searching like crazy for a barber who committed murder between the years 1798 to 1803 (thornhill)now then the `Yard` know about Todd, but the guy who runs the crime museum is on holiday till next week....there are things that point towards a cover up, but at the moment we have no proof....we have to ignore haining's book but he's got the legend right but found no proof. if we find proof then the legend is correct because it makes so much sense...the really interesting thing is dicken's mentions todd (but not by name) 3 years or so before `penny dreadful` |
malcolm Macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 7:40 pm: |
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the legend of Todd is just like Nessie or Bigfoot, but the only way now to find anything would be to search newspapers of that era, this would be a long hard graft, i was told to search the microfilms of the `Times`. if Todd was hushed up and wiped from the records because his crimes were considered too repulsive, then the only thing you're likely to find is something mentioned in a newspaper |
Joshua St Johnston
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 2:41 pm: |
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Thanks, Malcolm. Fascinating stuff. So when you say that Haining has got the legend right, does that include the stuff about Todd's childhood, apprenticeship, Newgate, and the crypt of St Dunstan's? Is all that part of the legend? Or is it Haining's invention? Forgive my ignorance. I'm trying to find a copy of the Thomas Peckett Prest version, but no luck so far. I take it Thornhill was real, and was really killed. |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:39 am: |
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hi Joshua
the legend is basically everything from him opening the Fleet st shop onwards...before that the early life of Todd is Haining's imagination running wild...but for a cutthoat killer like Todd the early life depicted seems fairly realistic as well...i.e poverty, pickpocketting, prison and a life of crime....the catacombs/crypt are indeed true, but were rebuilt in the 1830s as was all of that area of Fleet st. i class todd as fictional but there's something that doesn't make sense and i dont know what this is...yet!
you need to search for ``string of pearls`` or penny dreadful......as for thornhill i dont know yet until i speak to the `yard` and search the Times microfilms at Christchurch library...and this is every single daily newspaper from 1800 to 1803,they have every single daily newspaper; so it's a huge amount of work and back then murders/executions were very popular reading...very tabloid! Todd is an ongoing project, i'll still be sniffing around in a year's time.....now if you look in the Haining book we need to trace that murder of december 1784 (hyde pk barbershop....i tried last night, by searching ` annual register 1784` but all i found was that newspaper cutting which could also be a hoax... we need to find that very same newspaper cutting but with other news surrounding it or the rest of the page...because that cutting is easy to hoax in Corel 8 graphics.
yes its very interesting stuff |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:24 am: |
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the trouble with Sweeney Todd is its that period of history when news reporting was very basic indeed, its not the same as the tabloid press of Jack the Ripper's era...so all we have is basically the Times newspaper...all the other minor newspapers are dead and buried with no records kept....its easy to find out what newspapers were in existance, but this is no good at all because we need to read their contents and you cant...only the Times or the Annual Register/Peoples Periodical etc.....somebody like todd might have been mentioned in the Times but only about 8 lines and all the other minor newspapers have long since gone...they used to print posters back then or penny publications but these wouldn't survive....regardless of his horror/infamous reputation at that time, without proof or documentation, he would have been regarded as fictional only 40 years later...the same goes for Jack Sheppard, but the big clue is that sheppard was good reading and regarded as popular/heroic by the lower classes...not so Todd, totally evil and thus only mentioned briefly in newspapers, the crazed antics of escape artist Sheppard were highly popular, especially with the lower classes who idolised him. Sheppard was popular like David Beckham but Todd was miles worst than Ed Gine so there you go!
now this arguement can be described as flawed because other murderers/highway robbers can be traced on the web or in the Newgate calendar, but my argument is that todd was struck from the records only a year or so after his execution....and these other killers are tame compared to Todd, this is the only way to explain for such an infamous person no evidence whatsoever...other than this it's fictional.
there is no other explanation, i've done too much research it was either hushed up/lost to history or it's fictional. |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 1:01 pm: |
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i've booked the microfilm `Times` newspaper search achives for monday afternoon at Winchester library, i'll search all newspapers from 1785 to 1803. if Sweeney todd's there i'll get him, i've got help as well.
the researcher told me that Sweeney Todd was probably his `nickname`.....if so we've a major problem!....the search criteria will then have to be all murder convictions from this era...i think it will have to be anyway |
Joshua St Johnston
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 6:37 pm: |
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Brilliant. Your theory is a good one. Let us know how you get on with the man from the Yard museum. Interesting that the Hyde Park killing might be phoney too. Good luck with that search! But the crypts are real... so is it part of the pre-Haining story that Todd hid human remains there? And the smell gave him away? |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 1:02 pm: |
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yes because the Hyde pk killing is easy to hoax, all haining needed to do was copy the style and typeface from `annual register`. yes it's always been the todd legend that he used the crypts...but i'm not sure about the smell. its more likely that he was caught for murdering Thornhill and then they found everything else and quickly hushed it up. it has to have been hushed up or its fictional, because everything in haining's book is impossible to trace in real life, i wont hold my breath tomorrow; it'll be virtually impossible to find anything....but if i do i'll be contacting the BBC straight away, i wont fool around like Haining....because a BBC reseach team will be able to trace everything else far better than i; plus legitimise my work. but i'll need concrete evidence to show them first.
dont forget if i dont do this people will call me a hoaxer too and that's why we all know haining's book is a hoax....because it has no guts...it's never been invesigated on TV or mentioned in any serious publication, if haining had found the truth...he'd be famous now, in fact; Todd would be as popular as Jack....maybe more so because Todd was a heavyweight criminal.....proving Todd's existance would be big news.
but alas.....nobody else has, so therefore its doubtful i will either. |
Julia
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 11:32 pm: |
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But if we're looking for influences on Jack's psyche, it wouldn't really matter if Sweeney Todd were real or fictional, would it? Jacky might have heard the story and liked something in the evil character of Todd, and become obsessed with it. You've said there were only two small newspaper articles on the subject, but was this a popular story circulating in the 1800's? |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:19 am: |
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sorry Joshua
bad news, Todd's fictional and his barbershop is wrong as well...it was a 4 storey Georgian, i found all of this out yesterday and the shop today....DAMN IT! my essay is based on Haining's 2 storey Elizabethan, which means i have to redo it all...even so it still should be a good read but unfortunately the discovery that it's all fictional means the essay has lost its guts!
its gone flat on me...never mind i'll still upload it on the web soon....be it heavily revised!
Haining is a bull******* oh well never mind, hopefully i can point out his hoaxes and try and portray a more accurate Todd.....sorry! |
Stephen Leece
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:59 pm: |
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Just to let you know Peter Haining is already famous in the UK and well known to the BBC- he did in fact write the 25th anniversary book of Doctor Who for the BBC. |
Stephen Leece
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 6:01 pm: |
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I really don't think it is fair to describe Peter Haining as a 'bull*******.' For a start he is not a trained historian but rather a populist author and researcher. His back catalogue of publications include works on the paranormal and pop culture as well as Sweeney Todd. As a result of his efforts regarding the legend of Todd and his authenticity or not, he should be praised for producing research that goes beyond the popular melodrama. If you feel misled by his work on Sweeney Todd it indicates more of a weakness in historical analytical skills of the general public rather than of the researcher (ie Haining). |
