| Author |
Message |
    
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 5:53 am: |       |
G'day,
'The Jack the Ripper A-Z' mentions on page 486 a man passing through Church Lane, (not to be confused with Church Passage), at 1:30 a.m. which was half an hour after the discovery of Elizabeth Stride's body. The man was described as wearing a sailor-like cap and was sitting on a doorstep wiping his hands.
The authors of 'The A-Z' believe this was likely a sighting of Stride's murderer on route to Mitre Square.
Does anyone know which newspaper reported this sighting, or any further information on it?
LEANNE |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 102
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 10:41 am: | |
Leanne,
Sugden cites the source as the October 1 issue of the Star.
Don. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1055
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 4:46 pm: | |
G'day Don,
Thanks. The October 1st 'Star' newspaper isn't available here on Casebook. Can anyone help?
LEANNE |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 183
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 6:15 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
Phillip Sugden in his book printed the passage from the 'Star' 1st October:
"From two different sources we have the story that a man, when passing through Church Lane at about half past one, saw a man sitting on a doorstep and wiping his hands. As everyone is on the look-out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and sailor's hat".
Rob |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1056
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 6:31 pm: | |
G'day,
Thanks Rob, I just dug Phillip Sugden's 'The Complete History Of Jack the Ripper' from my library.
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1057
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 3:08 am: | |
G'day Rob and Don,
Many researchers ignore the existence of this man in Church Lane, because the sighting was only reported in one newspaper. Do you think he should be ignored?
I am trying to find a detailed description of Church Lane, to see if there were any shops or warehouses or anywhere that the killer could have found something to wipe his hands with, and perhaps pick up his hidden knife.
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 396
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 9:59 am: | |
Leanne,
I don't think it should be ignored but many people were on high alert at the time and so people probably took note of other people a lot more. This man may have been washing his hands for a very innocent reason. Also, if he has only cut Liz's throat then I shouldn't imagine that there would have been much blood on his hands to wash off.
Sarah |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 249
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 10:15 am: | |
On the maps it is called Back Church Lane and is only a block or two to the west of Berner's Street. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 337
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:12 am: | |
Diana,
Church Lane and Back Church Lane are not the same. Church Lane was a short street running between Commercial Road and Whitechapel Road, opposite and slightly to the west of Gower's Walk. I believe it has a different name now, but I don't remember what it is. |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 105
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:29 am: | |
Leanne,
The initial problem with the story in the Star is that the reporter says two independent people (not identified) apparently told him that a third man (also not identified and presumably unidentifiable since the reporter did not find and try to interview him) told them he saw a man sitting on a doorstep wiping his hands. So at best you have third-hand hearsay.
Moreover Sugden, who is somewhat enthusiastic about the story, admits the timing was not quite right for it to have been Jack. Of course, in an era and area without digital watches on every wrist, accurate statements about time are not possible.
That said, it could still be an accurate account -- and mean absolutely nothing at all. The world of Whitechapel in the fall of 1888 was not a gigantic Jack the Ripper reality show. People had lives and continued to play them out. So a man sitting on a doorstep a few blocks from Berner Street could have been wiping his hands for any number of reasons that had nothing to do with Liz Stride. Probably almost as many reasons as there were young men on the streets wearing short jackets and peaked caps.
Finally, even if it were our Jack, how much "forrader" are we? If Jack did the double event, well he obviously got from Berner Street to Mitre Square somehow. And a "short jacket and sailor's cap" is not much different, but no more helpful, than several of the other descriptions given.
Don.
|
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 592
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
Alan, diana, LEANNE, ect,
Church lane is still there. It has some dodgy hotel at its southern end (I remember a fire station around there) and a pub (I think is called 'The Lester Piggott'..that or some other Jockey) towards the northern end.
Something that might be worth thinking about. I walked from Berner st to Mitre sq via Church lane (I read the same passage LEANNE quotes above and thought along the same lines). It took a tad less than 15 mins. This means that Jack may have either waited 15 mins at Mitre sq end of this journey (perhaps to pick up a victim) or he stopped en route to get himself clean.
Whatever happend there is a 30 min window of which around 15 mins would have been used up during transit...what happend to the other 15/20 mins before Lewandes possible sighting?....that make sense ?
Monty
 |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 399
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:39 am: | |
Monty,
First of all I'm sure that Jack wasn't deliberately heading to Mitre Square so may not have gone the most direct route. He also may have passed Mitre Square then double backed and all sorts before finding another victim.
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 594
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:48 am: | |
Sarah,
Yep, I agree. I think he was heading for St Boltophs.
And yep again, he may have gone around the houses. But I think, if Stride was a victim of his, he would have
a)wanted to have gotten the hell out of that area ASAP
b)gotten to an area that was heavily populated ie a main thoroughfare.
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 401
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:58 am: | |
Monty,
Why heavily populated? If he did have blood on him anywhere people may have been suspicios especially if there had just been a murder.
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 596
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 12:08 pm: | |
Sarah,
On black blood hardly shows. he wouldnt have been that heavily covered in blood anyway.
Heavily populated ? Cant see the wood for the trees.
Monty
|
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 72
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 1:55 pm: | |
Hi all,
I don't think someone coming from Berner Street and heading directly to St.Botolph church or Mitre Square would use Church lane. It leads to the opposite direction, towards Osborn Str.
Imho, if the man seen was indeed JTR coming from Stride he either had business there to do or was strolling around or was at first heading north.
Christian
} |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 184
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 3:06 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
I think timing is the problem here.
I don't think the person that killed Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were the same person. Church Lane is about five minutes walk from Berner Street, so if this was the person that killed Elizabeth Stride he was in no great hurry to leave the area. And if this was the person that killed Catherine Eddowes, he was cutting it very fine in heading towards Mitre Square which was still about ten minutes away.
I don't think we should ignore it though, but we can't do anything with it until we get more information. It would be interesting to know who the two sources were. Since this report was only in the 'Star' as was Israel Schartz's account I am wondering if they had a police source, but that is just my opinion.
I've posted a map of Church Lane, there is no information on it about what sort of business premises if any were there, except a public house. It is called Whitechurch Lane today.
Rob
 |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1058
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:47 pm: | |
G'day,
SARAH: Yes people were on alert, so why did this innocent man sit on a doorstep to wipe his hands? What an idiot!
The description of a sailor's cap wouldn't have been published in the newspapers yet, so the 'two sources' couldn't have read about that description.
DON: Yes it's 'third-hand' hearsay, but how long are we going to ignore it? I really don't understand the claims that the timing isn't right. Could you please explain this to me? The two sources said "about" half past one, which means they estimated.
SARAH (again): The Ripper could have been on his way to the markets near Mitre Square, to create an alibi.
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1059
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 3:42 am: | |
G'day,
If the person who killed Elizabeth Stride was in a mad hurry to get away, why would he want to enter the busy Whitechapel Road if he still had the slightest drop of fresh blood on his hands?
Remember he'd just been disturbed at Dutfields Yard, may have hid temporily in the darkness until it was safe to run, and people would have ran to Whitechapel road in their search for a policeman. He could have pretended to be one of those searching for a policeman too.
LEANNE |
not again!
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 7:50 pm: | |
G'day,
SARAH: Yes people were certainly on alert, so why did this innocent man sit on a doorstep wipping his hands? What an idiot!
The description of a sailor's cap, wouldn't have been published in the newspapers yet, so the 'two sources' couldn't have coppied the other description.
DON: Yes it's 'third-hand' hearsay, but how long are we going to ignore it? I really don't understand the claims that the timing isn't right. Could you please explain? The 'sources' said "about" half past one, which means they guessed.
SARAH (again): Jack could've been heading towards the markets near Mitre Square, to secure an alibi!
LEANNE |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 108
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 5:11 pm: | |
Leanne,
You have to do something about that comnputer.
Anyway, the time problem is Sugden's and he explains it in the book. I don't have much interest either way.
For me, the real question is not "...how long are we going to ignore it" but rather why did the police and the Star ignore the tale when it might have mattered? To begin with the latter, that newspaper had certainly been enterprising enough to track down Israel Schwartz and get an interview with him. So, it may well be that neither of the Star's two sources knew the man who witnessed the hand-wiping incident and so the story ended there. In the same way, even if the police took notice of the thrice-told tale, they were likely similarly stymied following up on a possible lead.
More important, though, is that ignoring or embracing enthusiastically the story makes no difference now. All the principals are assuredly dead and unavailable for further research. The man wiping his hands may have been innocently removing filth from his hands. The man may have been Stride's killer, who then went home and went to sleep. He may have been Stride's killer who then went on to Mitre Square and eviscerated Eddowes. He may have simply been a figment of someone's imagination. We will almost certainly never know.
It seems the only use for the story now is that to which Sugden put it: an "if only, but..." anecdote that grabs the reader's attention. It did mine when I first read it and for that reason might be worth incorporating in your book -- I'm being serious, not sarcastic.
Don. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1060
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 5:59 pm: | |
G'day Don,
I don't know what happened that time with this computer. I said to Dad: "Have you been fiddling with this computer again?" And he said he hadn't. This problem never happens with his message boards. We're getting a new one soon. This will be our 5th!
I don't know why the police ignored this particular report, or even if they saw it. There were so many newspapers and as you point out it was third-hand knowledge. It came out the same day that Stride's inquest opened so they may have waited until after that, and by that time the two sources may have vanished into history.
I'll put this into our book, but treat it with suspicion like you!
LEANNE |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 185
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 6:18 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
I think timing is the problem here. I would take about 1.30 as being at least 5 minute either side of it. And that would make it practically impossible for him to get to Church Passage from Church Lane to meet Catherine Eddowes. And if this was the person that killed Elizabeth Stride than he must be a few onions short of a jar to be sitting on a doorstep in an area swarming with police.
We don't know if the police did ignore it. Perhaps one of the 'Stars' sources was the police. Who knows?
Rob |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1061
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 7:22 pm: | |
G'day Rob,
How long would it take to get to Church Passage from Church Lane? Times are very vague here! Maybe that's why the police couldn't make this report add up, IF they read it.
I'm thinking that he left something in Church Lane, (ie what happened to the 18-inch-long parcel wrapped in newspaper that P.C. Smith saw the sailor-cap man with?)
LEANNE |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 111
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 8:55 pm: | |
Leanne,
Fifth computer!? Computer salesmen in your area must look upon the Perry family as the next best thing to an annuity.
Don. |
