| Author |
Message |
    
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 129
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 5:27 am: |       |
G'day Everyone,
The book 'The Jack the Ripper A-Z', says that Joseph Lawende was a witness at the inquest of Catharine Eddowes, who was born in Warsaw and immigrated in 1871. He was a commercial travellor in the cigarette trade, a resident at 45 Norfolk Road, Dalston and had a buisiness in St Mary Axe. 79 Fenchurch Street was also offered as one of his addresses.
Lawende left the 'Imperial Club' at 1:30 a.m. on the morning of September 30, 1888, with Harry Harris and Joseph Levy. The three men walked 15 yards, when they saw a man and woman standing near Mitre Square, where Catharine's body was later found. He later identified the woman as Catharine Eddowes.
Lawende got a better look at the couple than his friends did. Neither the man nor the woman appeared angry.
He was asked at the inquest by the Coroner to describe no more than the man's clothes, because his sighting was considered important enough to keep secret.
The book: 'The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion' page 124 gives Lawende's description as: 'age 30, ht. 5ft 7 or 8ins, Comp. fair, fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with a peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor.'
Major Henry Smith wrote later in his memoirs of Lawende's description: 'This was without doubt, the murderer and his victim.'
LEANNE PERRY
Sub-editor of 'Ripperoo'. |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 130
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 5:36 am: | |
G'day,
At the time of the Ripper murders, Joseph Barnett was 30 years old, 5ft 7ins tall, fair complexioned and had fair hair with a neatly trimmed moustache.
How difficult would it have been for a worker at Billingsgate, to dress like a sailor?
LEANNE. |
Shannon Christopher
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 3:48 am: | |
Leanne, In the case of Joeseph Barnett (or anyone else), not difficult at all. There were plenty of drunk sailors frequenting the pubs in the area, some of whom would have left articles of clothing either in the pub, at the pawn shop (to pay for the nights activities), or in the company of the "lady" they removed their clothing for. It's no stretch to picture anyone from the area coming by or wearing whatever was available. |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 114
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 7:37 pm: | |
One question Leanne,
What do you think the police might have been seeking to conceal about the Ripper suspect from
Joseph Lawende's description of him?
Was it the blonde hair and moustache?
They would hardly have been concealing the fact he looked like a sailor.... |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 296
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 6:26 am: | |
Hi All
Perhaps the simplist explanation is the best one. He was a sailor.
All The Best
Gary |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 528
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 1:02 pm: | |
Hi all
I have had a quick look in the Polish birth records to see if i could find any Joseph Lawende. I found two entries, which may be of interest. Again, as with other 19th century Polish names there is a large number of variant spellings.
1) JOSEK LAJWAND was born in Opole in 1845
2) In 1864 in Tarnopol, the birth of a Benjamin Wolf Lewande was registered and the father is listed as JOSEF LEWANDE.
Hope this is of interest
Chris
|
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 160
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 2:50 pm: | |
Chris--I'm afraid that this probably isn't the right man. I've traced Joseph Lawende in the 1891 UK Census as follows:
Joseph Lavender
22 Upper Street
Islington South West (St. Mary)
Age: 43 (?)
Occ: Tobacconist & Commercial Traveler
Born: Warsaw, Poland (Naturalized British Subject)
Wife: Annie (32?) Born City of London
Daughters:
Eva (14)
Rose (12)
Pauline (10)
Fanny (6) 16?
Ray? (4)
Lilly (3)
Mary Isabelle (1)
Sons:
Henry (11)
Jack (8)
Ellis (6)
Half the children were born in Whitechapel, the other half in Dalston (which agrees with Lawende's address in the 1888 coverage of the Whitechapel murders).
I'm very certain that this is "our" man. Sounds like he's pretty much Anglicized by 1888.
His poor wife, my gawd. Ten kids in 14 years.
All the best. RJP |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 778
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 3:07 pm: | |
Hi all
There's also a Joseph Lavender age 54 born Poland living in Islington, commercial traveller in the 1901 census.
Robert |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 161
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 3:42 pm: | |
Robert---Referring back to the 1891 Census, I see that it's difficult to tell Lawende's listed age. The Census taker rather stupidly ticked off the box. It might read '43'; seems like your fellow in 1901 is probably the same one. Do you have the names of any others dwelling with Lavender in 1901? As Martin Fido once suggested, tracing Lawende's living relatives could yield something of importance; perhaps the family has some information that could help us identify Anderson's witness once & for all. RP |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 779
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 4:40 pm: | |
Hi RJ
I haven't opened up the household because I haven't yet sent off for the vouchers. But when I tried putting in the individual names of the younger family members, I couldn't find Mary Isabelle, Ellis, Ray or Fanny, but there is a Lilly Lavender born Islington living in Islington, age 13, also an Annie Lavender born Islington living in Islington, age 45.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 529
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 8:28 am: | |
Hi RJP
I had a look at the record you mentioned in the 1891 census and just a few notes to add:
1) The address was 23 Upper Street, not 22 (sorry to be picky!)
2) The daughter Eva is listed as 17 (children are always listed in the census in descending order of age)
3) The wife's age look like 34 to me
4) Joseph's age (even without the crossing through!) looks virtually illegible.
Two other observations - if all the kids are his and they were all born in London then he should of course appear in the 1881 census (Eva would have been born about 1874). This may give a better idea of his age.
Also there was a household servant listed in 1891 named Caroline Mackney, described as a general servant and domestic.
I'll see if I can find this JL in 1881 and post results |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 530
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 8:55 am: | |
Further to the above:
If Eva was born about 1874 and was the eldest child (seeing how Joseph and Annie bred!) they probably married not long before then.
There is a marriage listed in London City in March 1873 between a Joseph Lavender and Annie Lowenthal). This may the couple we are looking for.
We also have a mystery as to where the family was in 1881. I have searched individucally for all family members who should have appeared in 1881: Joseph, Annie (under the names of Lavender and Lowenthal), Eva, Fanny, Henry and Pauline. None could be found under the surname Lavender or Lawende.
But I will carry on looking:-)
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 782
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 9:10 am: | |
Hi Chris
I suppose the question arises, if Joseph had Anglicised his name by 1873, why was he still known as Lawende in 1888?
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 531
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 10:08 am: | |
Hi all
I have found Joseph and family in the 1881 census:-)
The problem was that the family's surname had been transcribed as LACRENDE which suggests that they had by that time reverted to the LAWENDE spelling.
The details listed for 1881 are as follows:
Address:
2 Tenter Street South
London
Head:
Joseph Lacrende born 1849 in Warsaw, Poland
Age 32
Cigarette Maker
Wife:
Anne Lacrende born 1855 in London City
Age 26
Children:
Eva born 1874 in Whitechapel
Fanny born 1875 in Whitechapel
Harry born 1877 in Whitechapel
Rose born 1879 in Whitechapel
Pauline born 1880 in Whitechapel
Others:
Boarder:
Noah Metter born 1857 in Warsaw, Poland
Age 24
Cigar maker
Servant:
Muriel Glitz born 1866 in Poplar
Age 15
Domestic Servant
Interestingly there is another family of the same unusual surname listed as living next door at 3 Tenter Street South
Head:
Leopold Lacrende born 1851 in Warsaw, Poland
Age 30
Cigarette Maker
Wife:
Fanny Lacrende born 1853 in Whitechapel
Age 28
Children:
Moses born 1874 in Whitechapel
Leah born 1875 in Whitechapel
Esther born 1877 in Whitechapel
Julius born 1879 in Whitechapel
Harry born 1880 in Whitechapel
Other:
Boarder:
Herman Lacrende born 1836 in Rawotitte, Russia
Age 45
Dealer in Pictures
Married
The match of unusual surname and place of birth strongly suggests that Joseph and Leopold were related and the relative dates of birth (1849 and 1851) makes it most likely they were brothers or cousins. How the Herman Lacrende fits into the family picture, as he was born in Russia, and is noticeably older than Joseph and Leopold, is not clear.
regards
Chris
|
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 532
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 10:14 am: | |
Re the above post I searched a few households either side of 2 Tenter Street South. next door at No 1 there was living one Louisa Pyzer, born 1811 in Poland, aged 70, a widow. A surname that rings a bell:-))
CS |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 783
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 10:22 am: | |
Great work, Chris! Leopold sounds familiar, I've an idea you found him before. I can't remember for sure, but I think you once found a Lawende/Lacrende living in the same street as a Schwartz.
PS You wait ages for a Lawende then three turn up together.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 533
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:39 pm: | |
I have also found a burial record for a Leopold Lawende who died on 29 September 1900 with hisage shown as 52. he is buried in Edmonton Cemetery (Section B, Row B8)
|
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 784
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 1:48 pm: | |
Hi Chris
He's on the free BMD too only there he's shown as being 51.
Robert |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 162
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 7:46 am: | |
Looking back on the old message boards I see that a year ago 'Steve L ' posted the following from the 1901 Census &tc:
Name = Joseph Lavender
Age = 54
Nationality = Poland Nat British Subject
Administrative County = London
Civil Parish = Islington
Occupation = Commercial Traveller
Another interesting 'Joseph Lavender' is mentioned in the Jewish Chronicle, 21 September 1894, in the births etc. column:
LAVENDER
On 14th September at 116 Mildmay Rd., Mildmay Park, the wife of Joseph Lavender of a daughter
Mildmay Road is very close to Upper Street in Islington. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 788
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 8:32 am: | |
Hi RJ
I think Steve L and me must have found the same Joseph Lavender.
Re the Jewish Chronicle Joseph Lavender, I tried putting 6-year-old female Lavenders into the 1901 census, and the only one that came up as Islington was called Ruby.
I've no idea what happened to Herman.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 902
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 6:45 am: | |
Hi all
From the 1901 census :
Joseph Lavender, 140 Mildmay Rd, age 54.
Wife Annie, 45
Children (all born London Islington)
Eva, 27
Fanny, 25
Harry, 24
Pauline, 21
Julius, 19
Eliazer, 17
Rachail, 15
Lilly, 13
Mary, 11
Ruby, 6
Leonard, 4
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 308
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 10:46 pm: | |
Hi Robert
Once we locate Lawende, tracing his relatives might yield some interesting information which may have been handed down through oral family history.
If I could talk to the family of one witness it would be Lawende.I hope you and the others will keep up the valuable research, because I believe it will eventually bear fruit.
All The Best
Gary
|
Andy and Sue Parlour
Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 48
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 4:25 pm: | |
Regarding Joseph Lawende,
Sue and I have in fact been in contact with the Gt Gt Granddaughter of Joseph for some time. There is possibly a photo.
This is just one of the 'NEW' pieces of research we have uncovered amongst some other 'gems', since our book was published 6 years ago.
Our new book 'Phantom at War' is due for release early November and our publisher has hinted he will commission a re-write of our JTR book for late next year.
All I can say is 'watch this space'.
A&S. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 908
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 5:36 pm: | |
Hi Andy and Sue
I'm relieved that there is a trail leading to the present.
Mind you, I don't know whether the 1901 Lavender is the right line, but if it is, I'd have been disappointed if such a large brood had died out!
Hurry up with that re-write.
Robert |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 4:28 am: | |
Hello Robert,
Our informant has always used the name Lawende although we have not mentioned the other spellings. The thing about contacting descendents of anyone involved in history of any sort, you have to tread so carefully as a single word out of place and that's it, they clam up. It is good Sue and I always approach these things as a pair. I always push Sue forward, people are less likely to tell a woman to 'p--s' off, to put it bluntly.
Apart from this little piece on Lawende we do genuienly have some real nuggets, nothing that tells us who JTR was, but nonetheless answer a few long overdue questions.
A&S
We have although apart from the Lawende |
