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Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 69
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 6:57 pm: |       |
Hi Richard and Robert!!!!!!Not waving but drowning huh!!!!!!!!!!!!Brilliant Robert!! really cheered me up! Quite sure that Mary was up and toddling about and possibly throwing up too in Dorset St around 9.00am!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peter-The scream.. only if you believe that mary died around that time..what about if Mary had returned to her room about that time,pulled aside the coat..looked in and seen by the light of "the fire" a body ripped up on her bed!!..Don't you think "Oh Murder" would be a reasonable comment !!!?????????
cheers
Suzi |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 495
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 3:24 am: | |
Hi,
The scream which appeared to come from Kellys room , must have occured, so there are three possibilitys.
a] It was the time of her fatal attack
b] Kelly witnessed a murder, through her window.
C] Kelly had a reoccurance of a nightmare, which she had during october, and which she told her friend Lottie about.
Possibility [a] does not fit in with the mornings events ie, Lewis, Maxwell, mrs Goode?.,
possibility[b] Is to far fetched to even consider.
Possibilty [c] considering the frightened state she was in, its entirely possible, that around 4am she woke suddenly from a nightmare,that she was being attacked, therefore 'oh murder' would have been appropiate.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1676
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 12:17 pm: | |
Hi Richard
It's true that "Oh murder" on its own proves nothing, as such cries were apparently common.
On the other hand, this is the only such incident
reported - so the cries weren't that common on that particular night, which is suggestive.
But on the other hand again, it's possible the two women heard two different cries at two similar times. This is what might happen if some couple somewhere were having a row.
I think Suzi meant that Mary discovered a murder, rather than witnessed it - though I don't see why she'd hang around for several hours if she intended to disappear.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 77
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 12:46 pm: | |
Hi Robert and Richard-
Richard - I don't think that Mary witnessed a murder per se through her window but pulled aside the coat and saw the results! (Right Robert!?)
As to hanging around for several hours Robert..I think I'd be off to the pub to recover having seen THAT sight!..mind you I must admit that could be a slight problem..hmmm must think about that...what do you think??
Cheers
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1678
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 2:37 pm: | |
Hi Suzi
Well, suppose that after servicing Hutchinson's toff, Mary goes out to find another client. This time she either doesn't find one, or she services him in a yard or alley and then heads home.
But when she arrives she finds the door pulled to (locked) which is not how she left it. Maybe she thinks that one of her chums has made use of the room to bring a client to. Perhaps she knocks. No answer. So she goes to open the door from outside via the window, and sees the corpse on the bed...
The trouble as I see it is
1. Why only one scream? Blimey, she'd have done her nut!
2. If she sees the corpse on the bed, then the candle is alight (unless somehow the glow of the fire is enough). That means the candle would have burnt away by the time the police entered next day (for surely she wouldn't have actually opened the door and entered - she wouldn't know if Jack was coming back - therefore the candle would be left to burn). Well, maybe the candle did burn away - perhaps Mary bought two candles. That would leave one for the police to find. But if this was stuck in a broken glass, this looks as if it was the one that would have been in use. So her seeing a corpse doesn't seem to fit with the candle business, unless the fire was glowing quite brightly.
3. The natural thing to do would be to scream, wake the neighbours, tell the police...if Mary had a special reason for wanting to avoid publicity (say, fear of the people who took her to France) then why not disappear there and then? Why hang around, waiting till the pubs opened, going into pubs where she was well-known, talking to neighbours and even going back into that dreadful room before disappearing? It doesn't seem to make sense.
Of course, the last point wouldn't apply if it was one of Kelly's friends who found Kelly. Perhaps the friend disappeared. But points one and two would still apply.
However, point two need not apply to anyone if we drop the requirement of looking through the window. Suppose the Ripper left the door unlocked. Then anyone entering and finding a corpse wouldn't need a candle to do it, and could have blown out a candle if it was indeed alight.
Point one would still apply, though, and point three would apply to Kelly.
I hope this doesn't sound confused!
Robert |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 89
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 2:43 pm: | |
Hmmmm, there is at least one other explanation for the cry in the night (actually there are many). Anyway, consaidering Kelly's means of getting rent money, an "Oh, murder" or two could be her "faking it" signature. After all, she must have received a premium rate for a private room and all and perhaps that required a few extra flourishes. I don't really endorse the theory, but everything has to be considered. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1679
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 3:00 pm: | |
Interesting idea, Don. And who knows, maybe it was even s JTR sex game - perhaps there were already punters willing to pay to act out games in which they were JTR.
I've heard that around the time of the centenary, there were punters anxious to have sex on the actual murder spots.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 80
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 3:34 pm: | |
hi Robert
O.K, some excellent points old chum!..
What if Mary had looked through the window at some point a.m. seen the body and realised that one of her 'lodgers' a.k.a. Lizzie Fisher/Albrook (love the 'whatever you do don't do wrong and turn out as i have' quote!!..interesting that in itself!)was the body on the bed!!!
O.K...she needs (wants ) to get away so a great alibi would be to squeak 'Oh Murder'..not too loud..just enough to rouse Diddles! and give herself time to scuttle off..Am starting to lose myself in my own theory here..why did she then appear bold as brass the following am?Ah....erm..
Donald- Interesting..
Robert- Again..is that right about the centenary murder spots? Interesting..!Personally I've never had a hankering for multi-storey car parks!..ah well everyone to their own!
Cheers
Suzi |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 506
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 1:51 pm: | |
Hi ,
Having sex on the murder spots, now that is horrendous,I have albeit in the sixties, walked down Bucks row, passed Nichols death spot at 33Oam in the morning on the 31st august, Frankly it spooked me, to actually do my lovemaking on them cobbled stones, Would do nothing for me , and probable due to the sickness of the deed, nothing for my partner either.
Richard. |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 89
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 4:04 pm: | |
Richard-
Last time my chum Heather and I were making our way back to Whitechapel Station via Bucks row(as you do!) we were seriously hassled by cruising guys in cars.."Hello girls..fancy a horrible time" sort of stuff so we toddled off to the "safety" of Whitechapel High St. only to have these guys reversing back up Bucks Row repeating their requests!.Nothing changes huh!
Ah well I guess Mitre Square may be a bit more discreet!!...still yuk though!!
Cheers
Suzi |
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