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Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 87
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 5:31 am: |       |
Israel Schwartz, was a Hungarian immigrant who voluntarily went to Leman Street Police Station on the 30th of September 1888. He saw an attack on Elizabeth Stride, 15 minutes before her dead body was discovered in Dutfields Yard.
He told police that at 12:45 a.m. that morning he turned into Berner Street on his way home, got as far as the gateway to Dutfields Yard when he saw a man stop to talk to a woman. This man pulled the woman into Berner Street, turned her around, then threw her down on the footpath. The woman screamed 3 times, but not very loudly. |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 88
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 5:53 am: | |
Schwartz began to cross the road to avoid involvement, when he saw a second man come out of a public house a few doors away.
Schwartz heard the word "lipski" being called out by someone. He told police that the assailant shouted it at him, but the press reported later that the 2nd man shouted it at the assailant.
Schwartz hurried away, followed by the 2nd man. Schwartz went as far as the nearby railway arch, but the 2nd man didn't follow as far.
After reporting to the police, Schwartz was taken to the mortuary, where he identified the body of Stride as the woman he saw. He recognized her by her clothes.
Being an immigrant, Schwartz could not speak good enough English, so his statements were translated by a friend.
The 1st man seen by Schwartz was described as: aged about 30, 5ft 5ins tall, fair complexion, Dark hair, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders, and he wore a dark jacket and trousers with a black, peaked cap. He had nothing in his hands.
The 2nd man was: aged 35, 5ft 11ins tall, fresh complexioned, light brown hair, wore a dark overcoat and a black, hard felt hat with a wide brim. He had a clay pipe in his hand, which the 'Star' newspaper later reported as a 'knife'.
The police took his statements seriously enough to circulate his description of the 1st man, but no attempts were made to trace the 2nd man.
There is no record of Schwartz's appearance at Elizabeth Stride's inquest, yet it was a serious offence for the police to withhold an important witness from the Coroner. |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 89
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 6:01 am: | |
G'day Marie, Robert, everyone,
If 1st man's attack ended with him killing Elizabeth, 15 minutes later, it must have been some argument!!! 15 minutes was plenty of time for an experienced prostitute to pick up another client, or perhaps 2nd man returned to 'rescue' her, then kill her.
The cry of "Lipski" was at the time a common anti-semitic insult, and could have been 1st man's last word to 2nd man, before he stormed off in disgust! It has also been suggested that the insult was addressed to the Jewish looking Schwartz.
LEANNE
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Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 6:19 am: | |
G'day,
But I ask you: if Schwartz immediately crossed the road to vanish without getting involved, why would anyone want to shout an insult at him?
If it was an insult directed at him, the yeller must have hated foreigners so much, that it caused him to forget the argument he was having with the woman!
LEANNE.
|
Marie Finlay
Police Constable
Username: Marie
Post Number: 10
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 7:24 am: | |
Hello Leanne,
You posted: "If 1st man's attack ended with him killing Elizabeth, 15 minutes later, it must have been some argument!!!"
I honestly believe that it was less than 15 mins. Schwartz witnessed the attack at "approximately" 12.45 am, but I believe it was quite a few mins later than that.
The scenario you are proposing is perfectly plausible, but I still personally lean strongly towards the original attacker being Stride's killer.
I also think the press were mistaken when they reported that the second man shouted "Lipski" at the assailant. To my mind, it only makes sense that the assailant (1st man) shouted it at Schwartz (who was quite obviously of 'foreign' appearance, by all accounts).
I think the first man intended to kill Stride, and whereupon he realized that he was seen by Schwartz- he called out the insult "Lipski", to warn his friend that they were observed. At this point the second man started after Schwartz, who fled.
I think that possibly these events happened at just a few minutes to 1.00 am. |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 8:18 am: | |
Hi all
This thread being entitled "Who Was Israel Schwartz?" I thought folks might be interested in seeing the 1901 census entry for him and his household (he is not listed in the 1881 census)
Household details for Israel Schwartz
Address:
8 Little Alie Street
Whitechapel London
Head of Household:
Israel Schwartz
Aged 35
Russian Subject
Profession: Cigarette Maker
Also Listed:
Millie Schwartz
Wife
Aged 35
Russian Subject
Samuel Schwartz
Son
Aged 6
Russian Subject
Rueben Schwartz
Son
Aged 2
The main surprise in this for me is Schartz's age at the time of the murders- he would have been only 22. I don't know why but I imagined him as an older man! |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 12:23 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
Your research shows Schwartz to be a Russian subject,yet we have been led to believe that he was a hungarian.
The age at the time 22 is surprising , I had always like yourself pictured him in his forties or fifties
Intresting research.
Richard. |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 9:01 am: | |
Hi - me again!
I found tucked away on the PC some miscellaneous notes on Schwartz that may be of interest:
Israel Schwartz born circa 1866.
Have found an ISRAEL LIPA SCHWARTZ. Born in Dvinsk, son of Michael Shachor, who was born in Mir. His mother was Liebsche Berlin. Israel had 4 siblings but oddly was the only one who has the Schwartz surname, the other 4 taking the name of the father, Michael Shachor. These were:
Moses Shachor born in Charkov
Samuel Zvi Shachor born in Mitshed
Meir Shachor born in Shklov
David Shachor born in Minsk
There is a marriage record for an Israel Schwartz registered at Mile End Old Town in September 1893.
There was also a birth registered in the name of Israel Schwartz in Bethnal Green in March 1901. This may be a son of our Israel.
|
Scott Nelson
Police Constable
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 1:38 pm: | |
From the 1891 census:
22 Samuel St. (St. George)
Israel Schwartz, 29, tailor's presser, born Poland
Eva (wife), 27, born Poland
Dinah (daughter), 6, born Poland
Louis (son), 6 mos., born London/St. George
Piece 285, folio 16, p. 4
may or may not be the correct Schwartz |
Neal Shelden
Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 26
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 2:56 pm: | |
Of the family at Samuel Street, it seems likely that in 1901 only the children Dinah and Louis Schwartz were recorded. There was a Dina, aged 17, a tailoress at Whitechapel. And a Louis 16 at Mile End New Town. Maybe Israel and Eva died or went abroad before 1901? |
Neal Shelden
Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 27
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 3:11 pm: | |
Just checked that the marriage of an Israel Schwartz to Rose at Mile End Old Town, September 1893 (as Chris mentioned above) was probably the same couple that are on the 1901 census for 173 Rothschild's Buildings, Block G, Spitalfields.
Israel Schwartz 28 married Cabinet Maker born Austria.
Rose Schwartz 27 married. born Austria.
Betsy Schwartz 7 born Spitalfields.
Sophie Schwartz 5 born Spitalfields.
Joseph Schwartz 3 born Spialfields.
Wasn't Austria joined with Hungary in an alliance at the time? |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 92
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 5:17 pm: | |
G'day Marie,
Obviously, the press either accepted a misinterpretation at their Schwartz interview, or it was a deliberated 'bending' of the facts. If it was less than 15 minutes before Stride was killed, we can only guess, and isn't that 'bending' the known facts?
If 1st man shouted "Lipski", to warn 2nd man that they were observed, why did 2nd man give up the chase for Schwartz? They weren't to know he lived just down the road. The 2nd man could have followed him past the railway arch to seen if he did board a train or not!
1st man could have waited a bit longer than 15 minutes to finish her. He wasn't to know that he had another appointment that night at Mitre Square!
LEANNE
|
Diana
Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 46
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 8:10 pm: | |
Don't SKs like to inject themselves into the investigation sometimes? Suppose Schwartz was JTR. He realizes that pipeman has seen him attack Stride. That is evidenced by his cry of "Lipski". Pipeman takes off running and Schwartz realizes he has to get out of there before pipeman comes back with a Bobby. Liz has to be silenced so she can't identify him. Quickly dragging her into Dutfield's yard, he dispatches her then runs away himself. But pipeman has seen him and may come forward at any time. The threat has to be dealt with. So Schwartz comes forward claiming to be a second witness. His testimony will largely confirm that of pipeman. Pipeman would probably assume that Schwartz was indeed there, but because of the darkness and the fact that his attention was riveted on Stride and JTR he did not notice. Will it fly? |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 4:36 pm: | |
Hi Neal
Austria and Hungary were, as far as I know, part of the Austro-Hungarian empire til the First World War. I find it difficult to believe the Rothschild Buildings Israel is the one we are seeking as he would have been only 15 at the time of the murders. But as there is no indication at all of his age in the evidence maybe we shouldnt discount him.
Chris S
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Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 94
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 9:16 pm: | |
G'day Diana,
That would have been risky, wouldn't it? To inject yourself into the investigation as an important witness!
There were other ways to inject yourself, like joining a vigilante commitee. That would have been a good way to get the victims to feel safe in your presence.
LEANNE
|
Marie Finlay
Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 6:52 am: | |
Hi Leanne,
You posted: "Obviously, the press either accepted a misinterpretation at their Schwartz interview, or it was a deliberated 'bending' of the facts"
Personally, I tend to think that the press were simply mistaken, as opposed to them 'bending' the facts deliberately. At any rate, I'm more inclined to believe Schwartz's initial statements to the police.
You are right, I could very well be 'bending' the facts myself, when I claim it was possibly less than 15 mins before Stride was killed. However, I'm only allowing myself to make this hypothesis, because all the times we have are approximations.
For most people, guessing the time they did something, is quite a hit/miss prospect. Most often they will only be correct to within ten mins or so. |
Neal Shelden
Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 7:18 am: | |
Hi Chris,
Yes, I think the Austrian Schwartz is unlikely unless he brought his age down at the time of the census to be closer to his wife's age.
It suppose it's possible that the real Schwartz could've left the country after the Stride murder, which would leave us with a difficult job of tracking him down.
Neal |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 1:15 pm: | |
Something about Schwartz's testimony puzzles me and I have never been able to sort this out in my mind. In his statement Schwartz made the following points:
1) He turned into Berner Street from Commercial Road i.e. from the North End
2) He saw the struggle in the gateway where Stride was murdered
3) When it seemed that the "second man" was following him, he ran as far as the railway arch.
If you look at the map below this is puzzling. If he thought he was being followed by at least an accomplice if not a co-murderer, I would have thought his instinct would have been to get home as rapidly as possible.
However, from the murder site in Berner Street to run "as far as the railway arch" would mean turning into Ellen Street running past his own home at 22 Ellen Street and continuing on to Pinchin Street. This to me makes no sense at all.
In the map below, the red circle is the murder site, the black circle is Schwartz's home and the yellow circle is Pinchin street where the railway arches were.
Can anyone make any more sense of this than me? Even a man in a blind panic is hardly likely to run past his own front door while attempting to evade pursuit.
Any comments welcome
Chris S  |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 98
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 3:25 pm: | |
G'day Chris,
Schwartz didn't know at the time that the woman he saw was going to be murdered. He just didn't want to get involved in an argument. He wouldn't have wanted the man who he thought was following him to know where he lived. Even if he was moving, he and his wife were still there!
He said he ran as far as the railway arch, but didn't say he boarded a train.
LEANNE
|
Marie Finlay
Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 3:56 pm: | |
Chris, I'm in agreement with Leanne- I don't think Schwartz wanted his pursuer to follow him to his home.
|
Robert Clack
Police Constable
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 6:21 pm: | |
Hi Chris, Leanne, Marie
I agree with Leanne and Marie, but whats interesting is that the home office report doesn't say what he did after he got to the railway arch. Theres railway arches all along Pinchin Street, so we don't even know which railway arch he went to. The nearest train station I think was Leman Street, so he probably didn't get on a train. Did he quietly make his way back to Berner Street to his home? if so, did he see something else? Theres nothing in the Home Office report to suggest he did, but his original police statement is missing, so who knows.
Rob |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 6:43 pm: | |
Whatho all,
I have written my thoughts about the call of Lipski on another thread. It seems appropriate if I quote myself here as it is, I feel, quite relevent:
"As old Israel could not speek English, the charming chappy setting about Liz could have shouted anything. Israel would have not understood exactly what was being shouted at the spur of the moment and, in his mind, translated it into something else; maybe something some nice zenophobes have shouted at him in the past."
Thank you for allowing me this indulgence.
Mark
|
Diana
Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 47
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 8:30 pm: | |
He did have body language to go by. Who was JTR looking at when he shouted? |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 100
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 4:23 am: | |
G'day,
As Schwartz would have been looking where he was going, he wouldn't have known who was yelling at who, but the insult would have sounded familiar to him because of his foreign appearance.
LEANNE
|
Monty
Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 9:13 am: | |
Chris,
Im with you. Its not that he didnt go straight home that grates with me.
Its that we are given no reason why he did this. The Police must have asked the question.
But heading to the darkend Railway arches is far more dangerous than going home. Imagine what could have happend to him there.
Monty
 |
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