| Author |
Message |
    
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2121
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 6:51 pm: | 
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For those of you not familiar with it, here is Picket's statement as reported in Jones and Lloyd's The Ripper File:
Statement by Catherine Picket, flower seller:
I heard her (Kelly) singing Friday morning about half past twelve. She was singing "I plucked a violet from my moether's grave," rest her soul in Heaven, poor dear. Rest her poor, dear soul. She was a good, quiet, pleasant girl, as was liked by all of us. Oh, if only I'd known what was going to happen when I heard her singing that song. If it hadn't been for my Dave - that's my old man you must know - I should have come out of my room and have caught the whitelivered villain!
But Dave says to me you just leave the woman alone so I stopped where I was - worse luck for the poor dear soul! - and goes to bed and sleeps so soundly that I doesn't get up till nigh on seven on Friday morning. It was close on half an hour later that I started to go to market to buy my flowers. It was a chilly morning, with the rain falling steadily and my poor shawl being as thin as a cobweb, the thought just struck me thst I'd borrow Mary Jane's pelerine. So I goes over to her door and knocks but I gets no answer so I think to myself, poor dear she's sleeping and I haven't the heart to wake her, so I trudge through the wet in these rags and it isn't until I get back that I hear the dreadful news and sees her from my own room across through the broken window, a sight I shall carry to my grave.
The scant census details I have been able to find on this couple are below:
Catherine Picket
1891
24 Spring Gardens, Mile End
Head: David Pickett aged 34 born Spitalfields - Bottle dealer
Wife: Catherine Pickett aged 33 born Holborn
1881:
29 Splidts Street, St George East
Head: David Pickett aged 66 born Ireland - Bottle dealer
Wife: Mary Pickett aged 59 born Ireland
Children:
James aged 29 - General labourer
David aged 24 - General labourer
Betsy aged 22 - Mat weaver
Michael aged 20 - General labourer
All born in St George's East
(Message edited by Chris on July 19, 2005) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4703
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:32 pm: |
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The article makes it seem that she could see Mary's body from her room. Weird.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 910
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 10:23 pm: |
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That's clearly what she says, Robert -- from across the Court. I wonder when this could have been.
Picket left her room at 7:30 Friday morning to go "buy her flowers" and noticed nothing amiss. Odd she didn't look through the window then. Only when she "gets back" does she see the commotion. I assume this means when she gets back from selling the flowers some hours later. But by then I would think the police would have covered the windows. It makes one wonder how much of this is true and how much is embellishment.
Andy S. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3761
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:49 pm: |
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I don't think she could have looked into the room before the discovery of the murder around 10:45 a.m.
Bowyer stated that he had to pull away the curtain in order to look inside, so if he is to be believed she couldn't have seen anything through the window before that and in such case not at 7:30 either (if Kelly was dead at that time).
As for when she saw the body: If Bowyer's information about the curtain is correct, she must have arrived after the discovery of the murder (and possibly before or at the time of the very early arrival of the police, before they managed to board the windows) -- she also states that she 'heard about the murder' when she got back. Unless her statement is a construction. Apparently Picket lived on the top floor in the house opposite Kelly's room, but how easy it would be to see things inside Kelly's place from there is hard to grasp.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on July 20, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 911
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 12:43 am: |
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Something just occurred to me. How could Picket have heard Mary singing if she lived across the Court? Not only did she hear Mary singing but apparently it was loud enough to disturb her as her husband had to prevent her from going over to stop Mary from singing. This is beginning to sound bogus.
BTW, Glen -- what I meant was that I am surprised Picket didn't pull the "curtain" back at 7:30 AM.
Andy S. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3767
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 9:57 am: |
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Andy,
"BTW, Glen -- what I meant was that I am surprised Picket didn't pull the "curtain" back at 7:30 AM."
That is of course true, but I wonder about that. Would a person be so frank and invade another person's privacy like that. I mean, that would be quite rude and inconsiderate. I find it hard to believe Picket would do such a thing without particular reason and she had none at this point (when the murder was still not known).
The fact that Bowyer did it is another matter, since he acted on orders of the landlord to get in touch with her to collect the rent, and thus it was his privilege. I don't consider that to be a privilege of an ordinary neighbour to invade privacy like that.
But I agree, it is beginning to sound a bit bogus all of it.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 638
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
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Chris,
What do Jones & Lloyd give as the source for this statement?
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2122
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 4:20 pm: |
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Hi Don
Unfortunately Jones and Lloyd do not quote a source but it is included in one of the sections of the book which feature press reports and witness statements and so, presumabley, is meant to be taken as geniune source material.
It is just termed a "statement" which could be meant to imply a witness statement given to the police but the more I read it with its embellishments (the poor dear soul etc) the more it reads like a press report but if so I do not know the source
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2123
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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The problem of her being able to see the body through the window from her room is intriguing. Looking at a plan of Miller's Court, it seems to me the only house from which this would be feasible would be the first property on the right hand side going down the court from Dorset Street. There was a bay with a pump outside Kelly's window but is it known if the end wall of the house on the right hand side was a blank wall or had a window in it? If the latter it would have been very possible to see into Kelly's room from this house.
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on July 20, 2005) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2124
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 4:31 pm: |
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Re. the above post
This part of the plan shows the bay with the tap and dustbin outside Kelly's room. There is a window clearly marked on the wall of the first house on the right hand side of the court. This would look straight across into Kelly's room
Chris |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 914
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
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Chris,
But how would Picket be able to hear Mary's singing and it be loud enough to disturb her from way across there?
Andy S. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 442
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:05 pm: |
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Hi All,
Here is a message posted on these boards by one John Plant on 8th. December 2003.
Mary Bousfield was my great grandmother (the origin of my interest in the case). Her husband's grandfather was a William Bousefield, who appears to have been a scion of the wealthy Bousefields of Westmoreland. He seems to have disgraced himself and to have had episodes of alcoholism, as a result of which his relationship with the family eventually was broken off. He died in a charitable institution in Bethnal Green, in complete poverty. Two of his three children died in workhouses, and only the line that led to William in Star St survived. So a remote link with Arthur Bousefield in Blackheath is not impossible.
We think that Mary was a second cousin of David Picket, husband of CAtherine Picket who famously complained of Mary Kelly's singing
Rgds
John |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 697
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:10 pm: |
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Hi Andy,
According to Mary Ann Cox' inquest testimony she heard Mary Jane singing when she (Cox) was in her own room at the end of the court. So if Cox could hear it when she was inside her room, the singing must have been loud enough to disturb someone living much closer by.
All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4705
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
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Andy, some suggestions :
1. If the court was reasonably closed in, the acoustics may have favoured this.
2. Kelly was drunk at the time, and there was a hole in her window (albeit presumably hidden by the coat).
3. Slum windows and doors would have been poorly made and fitted, allowing sounds in and out.
Robert
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 915
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
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Robert,
I had thought of some of your suggestions already. Yes, they are possible.
Acoustics undoubtedly did favor this but would that be enough to disturb Picket? Mary's window was broken, allowing the sound to escape. But unless Picket's window was also broken there would be a barrier there (very unlikely the window would be open on a cold, damp November night). Although doors were perhaps not in good condition, antique doors that I have seen a quite substantial compared to rather flimsy modern doors.
Andy S. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2125
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
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Hi Andy
From the plan the space between Kelly's room and the next house looks to be almost exactly the same as the depth of Kelly's room which we know to be about 12 feet so it would have been pretty close
Chris |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 916
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 1:09 am: |
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I'm not trying to make a bigger deal of this than is necessary but it still doesn't make sense to me. I'm just comparing from my own experience. The sound would have to travel across open space where it would dissipate.
From experience I can say that I would not be disturbed by my neighbors singing or even shouting even if their window was open and mine closed if the sound hade to travel across my back yard. I might faintly hear it but it would not be disturbing. Of course one must take into account that there was less background noise back then -- no jets on landing approach, for example.
Andy S. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4710
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 2:33 am: |
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Andy, has it occurred to you that MJK may have been a bloody awful singer? 
Robert |
John Carey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 8:58 am: |
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Catherine Pickett shows up in the 1901 census for London. Twice.
The first was age 39 born Whitechapel living at 193 Brunswick Buildings, Whitechapel 9RG13 piece 305 folio 115 page 37) with husband Edward, 40, born Southwark and mother in law Sarah Cook;
And the second was age 44 born Mile End and resident at 7 Paternoster Row, Whitechapel with husband Henry Pickett, general dealer, born Mile End, and daughter Annie Pickett age 10, born Spitalfields.
Although the age in each case looks about right, neither husband was Dave (or David). The luckless Dave “I almost caught JTR” could be the one who died age 37 in Whitechapel quarter to March 1894 (volume 1c page 219).
If Catherine Pickett the flower seller of Miller’s Court was not either of the above (and there are no other near matches in the 1901 census for London) what became of her? She could be the Catherine Pickett who died age 33 in Whitechapel quarter to December 1891 (volume 1c page 225) or
she could be the Catherine Pickett who married (again) to either George Bearman or Frederick Henry Edmonds at St Georges-in -the East quarter to December 1899 (volume 1c page 539)/
A three pipe problem, I think, Watson. |
