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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1660
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 4:51 pm: | 
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I've been spending a few idle hours looking more closely at Tim's criminal career.
Mr Donovan was employed at the famous lodging house on Dorset Street and gave evidence on a number of occasions during the Ripper murders.
As a 16 year old lad he served seven years for attacking a woman with - of all things - a sheep's head. After this he was involved in several more serious assaults where a knife was employed, most notably on a Thames ferry where several passengers were robbed at knife point.
Finally as we know he was jailed for 12 years in 1903 for the murder of his wife, after stabbing and mutilating her about the head and face.
I feel that this is a far more superior suspect than any in the top ten so far.
Please remember that Thomas is not in the top ten. |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
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That is interesting Ap.
Jenni
ps. A sheeps head!! baaa!!
"I wanna really really really wanna zigazig ah"
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1403
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 7:09 pm: |
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Hi AP,I share your suspicions about Timothy Donovan.I wonder too whether he,as the man who ran the infamous DORSET street Crossinghams Lodging House,was in any way responsible for ensuring that his deputy"s wife,Mrs Maxwell said what he,Donovan wanted her to say at the inquest on MJK.She it was who claimed against medical evidence from the post mortem that Mary was alive early the next morning and that she herself had seen her.Her husband was the night watchman at Crossinghams and may have seen more than he was willing to let on. Mrs Maxwell had been helping her husband Henry Maxwell the night of the murderin the lodging house which was opposite Mary"s alley way leading to her room.As the job was night watchman Henry Maxwell could have had a prime view of any strange comings and goings.Donovan too could have easily slipped out and entered Mary"s room without being seen or noticed by anyone other than -perhaps-Henry or Mrs Maxwell.Were Donovan to have been the ripper
it would have been in his interests to make sure suspicion was directed away from him and what better way to do this than to ensure that Henry"s wife would claim to have seen Mary alive on the morning of her murder?
Just some thoughts on the veracity of her testimony which contradicted other witnesses accounts and the Dr"s reports on the time of death.Having said all that though,there could have been other things going on at the "lodging House" that Donovan,Mr Maxwell or others didnt want looking into eg pimping,extortion rackets who knows what went on in Dorset Street Lodging Houses.In other words none of this actually makes Donovan the ripper.
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1707
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 1:41 pm: |
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Donovan was a very dodgy chap indeed, Natalia.
However that was not unusual for the time and place. Dorset Street was entirely criminal, and I would imagine that men appointed to watch over the common lodging houses in the street would have been men that one didn't cross easily.
My thought has always been that such men occupying such positions in common lodging houses would have been pimps, and as such their entire statements to the police in the Ripper crimes should be treated as suspect, as the force of their statements would have been solely directed towards ensuring that they were not prosecuted for living off the immoral earnings.
I think it wise to treat all such witness statement as 'tainted'.
However, I would say quite happily that Donovan is a far superior suspect than any in the present top ten.
He lived there, he had a very violent criminal record, he most likely was a pimp who had personal contact with at least three of the victims, and he eventually murdered a woman.
Case closed. Just call me Lady Cornball. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1407
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 3:10 pm: |
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Hi AP,
Indeed!The problem though once again is why did he have such a sudden burst and then stop---or stop killing and mutilating in a very specific way
after something like a period of three or four months?
One things for sure though and that is that these characters who ran these lodging houses were dubious in the extreme.And a woman such as Mrs Maxwell would have almost certainly not wanted to cross them.
Natalia |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 7:45 am: |
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I agree with you AP, a superior suspect.Total disregard for women. |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 6:46 am: |
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Just curious,did he kill that sheep before that incident?.Was he in a slaughterhouse?.I thought about him as a suspect because he gave a false testimony in Anna Chapman's inquest about the pensioner (Ted Stanley).Here's the exchange.
Timothy Donovan, deputy of the lodging-house, who gave evidence on a previous occasion, was then recalled.
The Coroner: Did ever you see that man (pointing to Stanley) before? - Yes.
[Coroner] Is he the man you call "the pensioner"? - Yes.
[Coroner] Was it he who used to come with the deceased on Saturday and stay till Monday? - Yes.
[Coroner] Was it he who told you not to let the bed to the deceased with any other man? - Yes; on the second Saturday he told me.
[Coroner] How many times have you seen him there? - I should think five or six Saturdays.
(Here is where he gave a false testimony.)
[Coroner] When was he last there? - On the Saturday before the woman's death. He stayed until Monday. He paid for one night, and the woman afterwards came down and paid for the other.
The Coroner: What have you got to say to that, Mr. Stanley?
Stanley: You can cross it all out, sir.
[Coroner] Cross your evidence out, you mean? - Oh, no; not mine, but his. It is all wrong. I went to Gosport on Aug. 6 and remained there until Sept. 1.
The Coroner: Probably the deputy has made a mistake.
I always thought that JTR had a criminal background and had some experience with the court system.When he was seen by Elizabeth Long at sunrise and the Lawende,Harris,Levy trio he still proceeded.He got experience and nerve.And also can gauge danger(a burglar or thief I thought).Also he probably got an idea that those sightings won't stand up in court.
My second possible suspect was and is a lodging house deputy or watchman.As i read they got a room of their own.They also probably converse with these "unfortunates",probably know something about them (bits and pieces of information),knows their "trade" areas from conversations.(In the case of Chapman broke,knows that vagrants sometimes use 29 Hanbury St.?).
My third possibble suspect was a member of those socialist parties.
I never believed in any of those famous suspects.
In anycase thanks AP Wolf.Great information.
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zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 9:19 am: |
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As far as lodging-house deputies are concerned I would like to add that the women could trust them.
Timothy Donovan knew Annie Chapman was broke and could'nt afford a bed and she promised to return if she found money.He knew she was out there.Is it a coincidence that Annie Chapman was the only one killed at past 5:00 a.m.? Did he knew that
vagrants sometimes stay at 29 Hanbury St.and that Annie Chapman might or used to go there?
Was the ripper lucky or was it a concidence that when the killer attacked,Mary Kelly did not have somebody living with her.Or the killer knew that? Donovan was the deputy across the street.
He's an interesting suspect. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1543
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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hi zxcter,
the only qualification seems to me to be the conflicting information we have on this Timothy Donovan.In his book Donald Rumbelow tells us that Timothy donovan died soon after he gave his evidence on Annie Chapman.He had TB.What we need to do is find out which Timothy Donovan we have here.Clearly there were two living in Whitechapel at the same time-one dying in1888,the other living well beyond that and sentenced for murdering his wife in the early 1900"s.
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1712
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 2:03 am: |
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Natalie
I did quickly check the dates and background on Timothy Donovan and the date of birth and age at convinction of murdering his wife seemed to confirm it was the one and same man.
I'm not sure where he got the sheep head's from but I will find out. |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 770
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 3:49 am: |
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Natalie
To the best of my knowledge, Henry Maxwell had nothing to do with Crossingham's. William Crossingham owned two lodging houses in Dorset Street. No. 35, where Annie Chapman and Pearly Poll both lived, was on the same side of the street as Miller's Court, on the corner of Paternoster Row, and not opposite Miller's Court as it is commonly mistaken for being. The Crossingham's which was opposite Miller's Court was a large building comprising numbers 16 thru 19. Tim Donovan was the deputy of No. 35. Henry Maxwell is described as the deputy of a lodging house an No. 14, which would therefore not be one of Crossingham's houses.
"All I know of morality, I learned from football" - Albert Camus
Visit my website - http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 10:22 am: |
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Thanks AP for confirming this.Donovan is certainly worth looking more closely at.
a bientot
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1554
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 10:26 am: |
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Thanks Alan,
just found the website-your book looks great!Must try and get it soon.
Thanks for the information.I thought I had found it in one of the books but maybe it was myself trying to put things together and being mistaken!
Natalie |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 507
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 5:58 pm: |
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As to why Donovan (if he was JTR) stopped after Kelly, we might find some clue in what was going on in his life at the time. Did he have some kind of precipitating event in August? What happened to him after Kelly? |
Jane
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 208
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
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Hi all,
Daft point to come in on, but he almost certainly bought the sheep's head from the local offal shop for pennies. It was actually a common way to buy cheap meat. it was probably his dinner!
I do think though that he is a very dubious character to say the least and too often all roads lead back to Crossingham's. If he wasn't JtR, then he might well have had something to do with it or be covering up for someone else. Definitely worth a 2nd look!
Jane
xxxxx |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 422
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 8:52 pm: |
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Jane,
I must disagree with you. In the spirit of keeping everything involved with JtR in a tidy package he obviously got the sheep's head from Jacob Issenschmidt! Surely that will provide grist for some Ripperologist or another's conspiracy mills.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Kane Friday
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 11:50 am: |
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Hello Natalie,
Rather than Donovan threatening Maxwell to ensure that she would provide him with an alibi,I think the following scenario is more likely:
Maxwell did in fact speak to MJK that Friday morning.
She was suprised to see Mary up so early
and was struck by how ill she looked.
She may have seen Donovan in Dorset street shortly afterwards and was eager to tell somebody about her encounter with Mary Jane.
She may have said something like:
"Oh I've just seen Mary Jane.She was in a terrible state Tim,she's been knockin'it back like there was no tomorrow you know.
I expect she'll be sleeping it off for the rest of the day!
AP,
Excellent information.
I must admit that if this information has been floating around the Casebook for a while,I have missed it all!
As far as the top ten goes...Timmothy Donovan has gone straight in at number 1 in my chart!
Not 'arf pop pickers!
Kane
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Fiona Rule
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 7:08 am: |
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Hi - I hope the following information adds to this interesting thread:
Lodging house deputies were employed by the owners of the properties to collect lodgers' rent (received nightly) and to attempt to stop any fights and other altercations happening throughout the night.
They were obliged to be in the lodging house from around 6pm until chucking out time at 10am the following morning.
With this in mind, surely Donovan would be taking a huge risk by deserting his post on a fairly regular basis to go out and commit the murders?
Also, he would have been forced to ask Evans the nightwatchman (who would have been guarding the door of the lodging house all night) to cover for him in case his employer William Crossingham (who lived just up the street) came calling or a fight broke out. What excuse would he have given Evans to explain his regular late-night sorties? |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 8:39 pm: |
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Hi! all
It's curious or a concidence that to murder,the ripper took 8 days from Polly Nichols to an oppurtunity, Anne Chapman,and 10 days to another oppurtunity,Mary Kelly's split with Joe Barnett.
If he did cased his victims,it took him slightly more than a week to case Anne Chapman and Mary Kelly.(If he cased Mary Kelly before the split it looks like she would not have been a potential victim.)With Eddowes it took 22 days.With Polly Nichols I don't know.
It's also possible that whoever is there is it.
As far as why he stopped I don't know.As far as the lodging-house hours it depends on the lodging house, and as far as dealing with John Evans i don't know. |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 470
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 1:00 pm: |
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Hi
This is a newspaper report into the Timothy Donovan who murdered his wife in 1903.
East London Advertiser
Saturday 14 March 1903
ALLEGED WIFE MURDER
A man named Timothy Donovan, a dock labourer, on Saturday night, it is alleged, killed his wife, Mary Donovan, at 27 Lucus Street, Commercial Road, by stabbing her in the neck. The man is about 40 years of age, and the woman some five years younger.
It is said that the couple have not lived happily, quarrels being frequent, the man leaving his wife and living away from her at intervals. It is further alleged that he called at Lucus Street between eight and nine o'clock on Saturday night, and that a quarrel ensured. Screams were heard from the room, but at the time did not attract particular attention, and the man left the house. Some time after the woman was found dead, and the police being informed the husband was later arrested, and charged at Shadwell police station with the crime.
THE INQUEST
Mr. Wynne E. Baxter. the East London coroner, on Monday opened an inquest at the Stepney Borough Coroner's Court, relative to the death of Mary Donovan, aged 36 years, the wife of a coal heaver, of 27 Lucus Street, Shadwell, who is alleged to have been stabbed to death by her husband Timothy Donovan.
Mary Ann Hodgman, the wife of a carman, residing at 97 Sutton Street, St. George's, E., identified the body as that of her aunt. Her evidence showed that the couple did not live happily together. The deceased was of sober habit and worked hard in the winter at seed-sorting and canvas bag making in the summer, whilst the husband never troubled about work. They had been married five years and there were no children. Three years ago they separated but the witness did not know the reason. They had lived together at Lucus Street for two years.
After this evidence the inquiry was adjourned, and in the meantime the post mortem examination will be made.
THE ACCUSED IN COURT
Timothy Donovan, 40, coal heaver of 27, Lucus Street, St. George's-in-the-East, was charged with before Mr. Mead, with the wilful murder of his wife Mary.
Detective-inspector Divall, H division, asked that only evidence of arrest be given on that occasion, as the inquest had been fixed for the same morning.
Constable 201 H stated that at about ten o'clock on Saturday night, having received a description of the accused, he saw him standing in Cable Street, and said to him, "You are wanted for a case of murder." The prisoner replied. "Is that so?" At the police station Sergeant Wensley had charge of the prisoner, who appeared to have been drinking. Donovan said. "I know what I am here for. I am done and shall be tapped, I know that,. The job is a good'un. She's gone: I let her go easy. I know I have got to go through it. I shan't be a coward when it comes. They are looking for the knife: they will never find it, for I threw it in the ditch. You know what I mean - the Thames."
In reply to the magistrate, the prisoner said he had no objection to being remanded for a week on the evidence given.
Mr. Mead thereupon remanded him for that period.
Later on Inspector Divall asked his worship if he would give permission for the prisoner to attend the inquest.
Mr. Mead replied he had no power to grant such a request, and the only way would be to go to the Secretary of State and get an order. All he (the magistrate) could do was to sign an order for the prisoner's removal to prision.
The 1901 census lists Timothy and Mary Donovan living at 27 Lucus Street. They were both 34 years old.
The 1891 census has them living at 100 Sutton Street.
For convenience I'll copy here an article from 'The Times' which I posted on another thread a while back. This may not be the same Timothy Donovan.
THE TIMES
Tuesday 9 September 1884
At the Thames Police court, Patrick Cronin and Alfred Sage were charged on remand with assaulting Timothy Donovan, a labourer, of 5 Gill-street, Limehouse, and stealing 14s. from his person. At a quarter past twelve on Sunday morning, the 31st of August, William Barry, a young man, living at 55, Brook-street, Ratcliff, was walking along Commercial-road, when he noticed the prisoners following drunken people about. They found prosecutor lying in a doorway, drunk and quite incapable. The prisoners walked backwards and forwards several times, and Cronin than caught hold of the prostrate man's arms, dragged him from the doorway, and threw him violently over on to his side. Sage put his hand into prosecutor's pocket, took out 14s., which he handed to a female and then ran away, Cronin following. Barry spoke to Patrick Henwright, a plain-clothes constable of the H Division, and Gould, a plain clothes sergeant of the same division, who went after the prisoners and apprehended them. The woman escaped. Mr. Saunders committed the prisoners for trial.
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4024
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 2:53 pm: |
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Hi Rob
Do you know what happened to the 1903 Donovan? I can't find him at http://www.murderfile.net/
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1565
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 4:19 pm: |
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Rob,
Thanks for this---its very useful indeed.A really helpful item of news.
I think we do need to investigate into background a bit more because if this was the very same Timothy Donovan one cant help but wonder whether he was the ripper himself!
Robert,
AP states above[first post]that he was jailed for twelve years.
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4026
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
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Thanks Natalie.
Twelve years! Blimey.
Robert |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 471
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 4:39 pm: |
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Hi Robert
He was found guilty of manslaughter. And sentenced to 12 years penal service.
THE TIMES
Wednesday 1 April 1903
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT
(before MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY)
TIMOTHY DONOVAN, 40, labourer, indicted for the wilful murder of Mary Donovan, his wife.
Mr. R.D. Muir and Mr. Bodkin prosecuted; Dr. E. P. S. Counsel defended.
The prisoner and his wife lodged in Shadwell. He was of intemperate habits, but his wife was a sober woman.
On the evening of Saturday, March 7, the prisoner returned home at 9 o'clock. Soon afterwards he went to the landlady, who was in the kitchen, and said, "I think I have done something; I think I have done it." The landlady asked him what he had done, and he replied, "Go upstairs and see." The landlady went to the room occupied by the prisoner and his wife, and saw his wife lying on the floor with a wound in the neck. A doctor was fetched by the prisoner, and he found that she was dead. The prisoner, who was under the influence of drink, was arrested the same night in Shadwell, and made statements to the effect that on his return home his wife threw something at him, and he in a moment of passion picked up a knife from the table and stabbed her. He added that he did not mean to do it, and that it was all done in a moment. It was stated that the prisoner always appeared on very affectionate terms with his wife, and it was only when he was drunk that quarrels took place.
For the defence it was contended that there was a drunken brawl, in the course of which the prisoner struck his wife, forgetting that he had the knife in his hand.
The jury found the prisoner Not Guilty of murder, but Guilty of manslaughter.
It was stated that there were 20 summary convictions against the prisoner for assaults on the police, drunkenness, & c.
Mr. JUSTICE KENNEDY, in passing sentence, said that the jury had found themselves enabled to take a less severe view of the case. He assumed from their finding that they were of the opinion that there was in fact, not merely drunkenness on the prisoner's part, but that there was a drunken brawl, in which he used the knife on his wife. In any view the prisoner had taken the life of the woman with a knife, and it was a very serious crime that he had committed. He sentenced him to 12 years' penal servitude.
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4027
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Thanks Rob. One wonders how an 1884 labourer could have enough money to get drunk and still have 14s. left.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
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Thanks for all this Rob,
I wish we could know more about these assaults too.And whether it really is for sure the same Timothy Donovan.Maybe when AP gets backhe will have further info.on him.
Natalie |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 472
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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Hi Natalie, Robert,
Robert, Perhaps he was on the tap.
I did see this other mention of a Timothy Donovan from 'The Times' Tuesday 11 August 1885
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4028
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 6:46 pm: |
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Hi Rob
Good find. Looking for 1881 Middlesex-dwelling Donovan households that contained a Timothy and a James, I found two :
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
James DONOVAN
Head M Male 44 Cork Pavior
Mary DONOVAN
Wife M Female 42 Cork Hawker
Mary DONOVAN
Daur U Female 14 St Georges E, Middlesex, England
Timothy DONOVAN
Son U Male 17 Whitechapel, Middlesex, England Dock Lab
James DONOVAN
Son Male 6 St Georges, Middlesex, England Scholar
Source Information:
Dwelling 49 Splidts St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341098
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0451 / 24
Page Number 9
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Timothy DONOVAN
Head M Male 64 Ireland Labourer Soap Works
Catherin DONOVAN
Wife M Female 55 Ireland Home Ruler ? (British)
Timothy DONOVAN
Son U Male 25 London, London, Middlesex, England Labourer At Soap Works
Jeremiah DONOVAN
Son U Male 23 London, London, Middlesex, England Dock Labourer
James DONOVAN
Son U Male 21 London, London, Middlesex, England Labourer At Soap Works
Mary Ann DONOVAN
Dau Female 16 London, London, Middlesex, England ... Domestic
John DONOVAN
Son Male 13 London, London, Middlesex, England Shop Assistant
Daniel DONOVAN
Son Male 18 London, London, Middlesex, England Brewers Labourer
Source Information:
Dwelling 7 Russell Court
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341100
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0457 / 78
Page Number 16
Robert
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 509
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 10:11 pm: |
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Well, if he was a coal shoveller, I would think he would have a lot of upper arm strength which is one of the things we're looking for. |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 9:42 pm: |
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Even if the Tomothy Donovan who killed his wife was'nt the Timothy Donovan at Crossingham's the deputy still would be an interesting suspect I think.
It just suggest to me that the killer lives in or frequents Dorset St.He knows a lot or quite a lot about the going-ons in Dorset St.With the women(Anne and Mary Kelly) he knows or in his sorroundings it took him less time to case or find an oppurtunity.
Th woman with Martha Tabram,Mary Ann Connolly,
lived or has been living in Crossingham's,Anne Chapman lived in Crossingham's,Mary Kelly lived across Crossingham.It's just prominent(a lot of coincidences),among all other lodging houses. |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 10:34 am: |
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Hi! all
It's curious or a coincidence that to murder,the ripper took 8 days from Polly Nichols to an oppurtunity, Anne Chapman,and 10 days to another oppurtunity,Mary Kelly's "split" with Joe Barnett.
If he does case his victims,it took him slightly more than a week to case Anne Chapman and Mary Kelly.(If he cased Mary Kelly before the split it looks like she would not have been a potential victim.)With Eddowes it took 22 days.With Polly Nichols I don't know.
It suggest,to me at least,that the killer live near the vicinity where Anne Chapman and Mary Kelly live,or crosses paths with them or possibly know them.
It's also possible that whoever is there is it.
As far as why he stopped I don't know.As far as the lodging-house hours it depends on the lodging house, and as far as dealing with John Evans i don't know.
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zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 10:45 am: |
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It suggest,to me at least,that the killer live near the vicinity where Anne Chapman and Mary Kelly live, or crosses paths with them or possibly know them. |
Bob Wall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
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Hi all,
Someone has probably done this resaearch but:
There is a Timothy Donovan listed dec'd Dec 1888, Whitechapel.
Marriages - several but one with a Mary (Elizabeth Walgate) on the register - Dec 1890 Croydon. Cannot find (on the free sites- budgetary matter) confirmation that Donovan was the groom.
Cannot find confirmable records for the convicted Tim post 1903. Perhaps after release he emigrated or changed his name.
We now have 2(at least) T Ds of interest. More research will hopefully clarify who did what, or even if other T Ds are of interest.
AP - T D who brandished sheep's head (with or without 45 mins notice) and wife-killer one and the same?
The dec'd 1888 T D is going to generate lots of interest - and be possibly a far more likely a JTR than Monty.
Cheers,
Bob
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Bob Wall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
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Hi all,
Someone has probably done this resaearch but:
There is a Timothy Donovan listed dec'd Dec 1888, Whitechapel.
Marriages - several but one with a Mary (Elizabeth Walgate) on the register - Dec 1890 Croydon. Cannot find (on the free sites- budgetary matter) confirmation that Donovan was the groom.
Cannot find confirmable records for the convicted Tim post 1903. Perhaps after release he emigrated or changed his name.
We now have 2(at least) T Ds of interest. More research will hopefully clarify who did what, or even if other T Ds are of interest.
AP - T D who brandished sheep's head (with or without 45 mins notice) and wife-killer one and the same?
The dec'd 1888 T D is going to generate lots of interest - and be possibly a far more likely a JTR than Monty.
Cheers,
Bob
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johnghtrer
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 2:02 am: |
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Hi!
The reason for eddowes taking 22 days is because
she went hop-picking sept. 1 and went back only in sept.27.So really it took 2 days if he cased. |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 8:54 pm: |
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Hi!all
I made a mistake.It took 2-3 since Eddowes returned from hop-picking when she was killed.With Polly Nichols it took 7 days since she moved to Flower & Dean St..With Mary Kelly's split with Barnett it took 10 days.
So going along the lines of my inkling that, if he did cased his victims,observable oppurtunities would have come by more frequently or faster if the killer live or hang out in the midst or vicinity,Flower & Dean St, 55 & 56 Flower & Dean St. would be a better possible quarters or area frequented by the killer.
I think he did case his victims and chose one.(Mary Kelly's split with Barnett,how did he found out that info?).On the morning of Mary Kelly's death Mary Cox went out twice to "work" and Sarah Lewis came.Probably decided to do it indoors.I think the man Sarah lewis saw was the killer(I don't believe in george hutchinson being there at 2:00-3:00).The man was there 2:35-2:40,but when Mary Cox went home at 3:00 nobody was there.Walk about until the 3:45-4:00 oh murder cry or went back to Crossingham's or Flower & Dean St.are possiblities.
Would Sarah Lewis recognize Tim though?
It's also, although less likely i think,possible that maybe these women who came from the worst streets and who were the most desperate were random victims.
In anycase i still wish that we could find out more about Timothy Donovan.
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zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 4:57 am: |
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Also
If Polly Nichols was followed at a certain distance, if it was the killer's MO, she was last seen by her friend at 2:30, it took the killer 1 to 1 hour & 15 minutes to approach her and kill her.With Eddowes,by the time she went out from the police station at 1:00 it took less than 45 minutes.With Mary Kelly,(believing the man Sarah Lewis saw was the killer),from the time Mary Cox went home and the oh! murder cry it took 1 hour, or from Sarah's apperance 1 1/2 hour.
So in more or less 1 1/2 hour the killer get's his job done.
Anne Chapman on the other hand is much different.She went out for the last time at 1:30-1:45 and it took the killer more than 3 1/2 hours.She was the only one killed after 5:00 A.M. (near sunrise ).Also the interval between killings(Stride?)is the lowest.(1 week)
I'm speculating,that with John Evans there, it would'nt make sense to go out( at once).She did'nt come back for the bed. Spitafields Market opens at 5:00 A.M(possible cover).Hanbury St. is a few blocks away..(probably knows Anne Chapman goes to 29 Hanbury St.if she's broke).The killer is talking to Anne Chapman in past 5:15. (Cardoche's time)
I'm curious as to what's the significance of Friday to Sunday mornings.
Among other things I'm thinking, for sure more unfortunates are out,job schedule, somebody with a graveyard shift Fridays to Sundays when he could have a warehouse,bulding,etc to himself.(?)
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zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 1:47 am: |
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Also
If Polly Nichols was followed at a certain distance, if it was the killer's MO, she was last seen by her friend at 2:30, it took the killer 1 hour to 1 hour & 15 minutes to approach her and kill her.With Eddowes,by the time she went out from the police station at 1:00 it took less than 45 minutes.With Mary Kelly,believing the man Sarah Lewis saw was the killer,from the time Mary Cox went home and the oh! murder cry it took 1 hour, or from Sarah's apperance 1 1/2 hour.
So in more or less 1 1/2 hour the killer get's his job done.
Anne Chapman on the other hand is much different and unusual.She went out for the last time at 1:30-1:45 and it took the killer more than 3 1/2 hours.She was the only one killed near sunrise.A week ago(lowest interval between killings) Polly Nichols was his first mutilation.
I'm speculating that with John Evans there, it would'nt make sense to go out(at once). Spitafields Market opens at 5:00 A.M..Sunrise is approaching. Hanbury St. is a few blocks away..(probably knows Anne Chapman goes to 29 Hanbury St. if she's broke).The killer is talking to Anne Chapman in past 5:15. (Cardoche's time)
I'm curious as to what's the significance of Friday to Sunday mornings?
Among other things I'm thinking, job schedule, for sure more unfortunates are out, somebody with a graveyard shift Fridays to Sundays when he could have a warehouse,bulding,etc to himself.(?) |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 11:54 pm: |
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If Polly Nichols was followed at a certain distance, if it was the killer's MO, she was last seen by her friend at 2:30 it took the killer 1 hour to 1 hour & 15 minutes to approach her and kill her.With Eddowes,by the time she went out from the police station at 1:00 it took less than 45 minutes.With Mary Kelly,believing the man Sarah Lewis saw was the killer,from the time Mary Cox went home and the oh! murder cry it took 1 hour or from Sarah's apperance 1 1/2 hour.So
in more or less 1 1/2 hour the killer get's his killing done.
Anne Chapman on the other hand is different.She went out for the last time at 1:30-1:45 and it took the killer more than 3 1/2 hours.She was the only one killed after 5:00 A.M.It's kind of unusual.
I'm speculating that with John Evans there it would'nt make sense going out at once.
But what is the significance of Friday to Sunday mornings? Job schedule,(etc)?
Among other things I'm thinking along the line of somebody with a graveyard shift Fridays to Sundays,when he could have a warehouse,bulding,etc to himself. |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 5:17 am: |
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Also
If Polly Nichols was followed at a certain distance, if it was the killer's MO, she was last seen by her friend at 2:30, it took the killer 1 hour to 1 hour & 15 minutes to approach her and kill her.With Eddowes,by the time she went out from the police station at 1:00 it took less than 45 minutes.With Mary Kelly,believing the man Sarah Lewis saw was the killer,from the time Mary Cox went home and the oh! murder cry it took 1 hour, or from Sarah's apperance 1 1/2 hour.
So in more or less 1 1/2 hour the killer get's his job done.
Anne Chapman on the other hand is much different and unusual.She went out for the last time at 1:30-1:45 and it took the killer more than 3 1/2 hours.It means she was'nt stalked like the rest.She was the only one killed near sunrise.A week ago(lowest interval between killings) Polly Nichols was his first mutilation.
I'm speculating that with John Evans there, it would'nt make sense to go out.( at once).She did'nt go back for the bed.Sunrise is approaching.( Spitafields Market opens at 5:00 A.M.). Hanbury St. is a few blocks away..(probably knows Anne Chapman goes to 29 Hanbury St.if she's broke).The killer is talking to Anne Chapman at past 5:15. (Cardoche's time)
I'm curious as to what's the significance of Friday to Sunday mornings?
Among other things I'm thinking, job schedule, for sure more unfortunates are out, somebody with a graveyard shift Fridays to Sundays when he could have a warehouse,bulding,etc to himself.(?) |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 6:48 am: |
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Also
If Polly Nichols was followed at a certain distance, if it was the killer's MO, she was last seen by her friend at 2:30, it took the killer 1 hour to 1 hour & 15 minutes to approach her and kill her.With Eddowes,by the time she went out from the police station at 1:00 it took less than 45 minutes.With Mary Kelly,believing the man Sarah Lewis saw was the killer,from the time Mary Cox went home and the oh! murder cry it took 1 hour, or from Sarah's apperance 1 1/2 hour.
So in more or less 1 1/2 hour the killer get's his job done.
Anne Chapman on the other hand is different.She went out for the last time at 1:30-1:45 and it took the killer more than 3 1/2 hours.She was the only one killed after 5:00 A.M. (near sunrise ) Also the intervals between killings is the lowest(stride?). (1week) . Polly Nichols was his first mutilation.Now here comes an oppurtunity.
I'm speculating that with John Evans there, it would'nt make sense to go out( at once).She did'nt come back for the bed. Spitafields Market opens at 5:00 A.M(cover).. Hanbury St. is a few blocks away..(probably knows Anne Chapman goes to 29 Hanbury St. if she's broke).The killer is talking to Anne Chapman in past 5:15. (Cardoche's time)
Curious as to what's the significance of Friday to Sunday mornings?
Among other things I'm thinking, for sure more unfortunates are out,job schedule, somebody with a graveyard shift Fridays to Sundays when he could have a warehouse,bulding,etc to himself.(?) |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 2:50 am: |
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Sorry about the repeated posts.
The conversation at past 5:15 a.m. "Will you"---"yes" or "alright" means a" short-time talk.Still has'nt been decided if Anne is gonna "do it" or not.If they walked towards 29 Hanbury I would think that the above question has already been settled.Also the killer won't risk a long conversation.
I think the scenario from my previous post is more plausible than...not knowing who and where his victim is gonna be,the killer is (still) looking for a victim near the market of all places, near sunrise with Spitafields Market open and workers and buyers already there or are coming out.It was an "oppurtunistic outing" rather than a stalking or a casing.
The likelihood of a chance meeting is low. |
Bob Wall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 10:21 pm: |
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AP, Robert,
Found this record on Famiilysearch:
Catherine DONOVAN Head (Widow) Female 50 Ireland Sackmaker
Timothy DONOVAN Son U Male 22 Whitechapel, Middlesex, England Labourer
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Source Information:
Dwelling 10 Castle Alley
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341096
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0443 / 88
Page Number 5
On Freebmd there is:
Timothy Donovan b. Whitechapel March 1859 - this refers to March quarter. Family search has a T D b Feb 159.
Timothy Donovan d. Dec 1888, age 29
See my previous post re 2 T Ds.
This T D seems likely to be the one Don Rumbelow referred to.
Did he have a criminal record? Questions to be resolved.
Cheers,
Bob
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