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Message |
    
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:46 am: | 
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Julia Venturney was an important witness in the Kelly case and has been identified as a possible identification for the "Julia" whose moving in with Kelly prompted Barnett to leave.
I had previously searched the 1881 and 1891 census returns without success for any sign of her but I have succeeded in finding her in the 1871 census and can now give the following information about her.
Julia Venturney was born in 1841 in Kensington and her maiden name was Julia Cook. She was the daughter of Richard Cook, a carpenter, who was born in 1804. I have yet to find the forename and nationality of her husband, but Julia had two daughter, one whose name was Rosie, Rosalie or similar (the census return for her name is very hard to read) who was born in 1864 in Fulham and another named Charlotte Ann who was born in 1968, also in Fulham and whose birth was registered in Kensington in March 1868.
At the time of the 1871 census Julia Venturney and her two daughters were living with her elderly father at 2 Little John's Place, Fulham, London and the household was shared with a lodger named Harriet Thorpe aged 18.
Below is a copy of the 1871 return - these details should facilitate finding them in the 1881 and 1891 returns but so far have yielided nothing excpet for an 1881 return for the father, Richard Cook.
But I have not given up yet! Anyhting I find I will post here
Chris
PS Any attempts at deciphering the name of the older daughter gratefully received!!
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1056
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:57 am: |
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Here is an enlargement of the name of Julia Venturney's older daughter which may help deciphering
Chris
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1057
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:01 pm: |
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Interesting in 1871 return above that Julia Venturney is simply described under occupation as "Professional" - I have no idea what that implies.
Chris |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 246
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:04 pm: |
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Hi, Chris
I believe the name is "Rosaie"--a new one to me. Googling it shows other instances of its use as a first name.
Edit: Scratch that, there's only one other person I found with that name--it's probably a misspelling of Rosie or Rosalie.
Cheers,
Dave
(Message edited by oberlin on March 12, 2004) |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 872
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:09 pm: |
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This Harriett Thorpe(?) who was staying with them has her occupation as a servant but also that she was a lodger with them. Does this mean she was their servant or that she was a lodger and worked as a servant elsewhere?
Sarah |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1058
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:15 pm: |
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Just to fill in the gap mentioned above:
Julia's father Richard Cook, was listed in 1881 as a lodger at 3 Bayham Street, London in a household headed by Eliza Beales, a 66 year old widwoed dressmaker.
His details are given as follows:
Richard Cook
Lodger
Aged 78
Born London
Carpenter
Dave - many thanks for the suggestion- I will try that reading of the name:-)
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on March 12, 2004) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1059
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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Sarah
I think it more likely Harriett lodged with Cook and worked elsewhere - usually if the person was a servant to the household where they lived, it showed "Servant" both in the occupation column and also in the "Relationship to head of household" column
Chris
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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 873
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:22 pm: |
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Thanks for that Chris. I thought that was probably the case.
Was there an age of retirement back then or would Cook have been named as a carpenter even after he retired?
Sarah |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1060
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:31 pm: |
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There was certainly no "welfare state" or retirement pension then and as Richard Cook is listed as a lodger and was not being cared for by his family then I assume he was still working.
This was one of the reasons why Victorian families tended to be so large by modern standards - to ensure you had enough offspring to look after you when your working life was over. The other two main reasons for the size of families were the lack of contraception of the reliability if today's methods and also the high infant mortality.
Hope this helps
Chris
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1061
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 1:10 pm: |
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Having looked again and done some saeches I think th daughter's name is "Roseni" - this name certainly did exist and I will be looking to see if it produces anything
Chris
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Chris Michetti
Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 45
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 2:10 pm: |
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I agree Chris, it looks like Roseni to me.
Is the purpose for finding out about Julia to see if she disappeared following the MJK murder? (ie. to see if it was her found on the bed?)
Chris 
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1062
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 2:20 pm: |
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Hi Chris
I just like to fill in any details about any of the characters involved in the case - somehow it makes them more real if we know a little more about them and their backgrounds.
I know a lot of research concentrates on the main "players" - victims and suspects but I like also to skirt round the edges and find out what is out there about the minor players in this drama
All the best
Chris
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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 879
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 6:10 am: |
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I definitely see an "e" at the end of her daughter's name. I see it as Rosalie or perhaps Rosemarie.
Sarah |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1123
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 2:43 pm: |
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Ihave managed to trace the birth records and correct names for both of Julia Venturney's daughters but have so far been unable to find any trace of the marriage. Also a redcord for her father in 1881.
Here are my furthernotes and copies of the birth records from the index:
1881:
Richard Cook aged 78 born London - Carpenter
A lodger at 3 Bayham Street, London.
Listed as unmarried.
Head of household is Eliza Beales aged 66 born Sudbury, Suffolk - Dressmaker
Marriage:
In the 1871 census, Julia is listed as 30 years of age and married. Her older daughter is 7 so would have been born in the early part of 1864 (i.e. up to early April., the time of the census) or the latter part of 1863). Allowing time for the pregnancy, we would expect the marriage of Julia to have occurred at the earliest in early 1863 or in 1862.
I have traced the birth of the older daughter but it is registered under yet another variant of the surname in the first quarter of 1864:
Rosina Antonet Julia Venteney
Birth registered at Kensington (register reference 1a/163)
No trace of the marriage from 1856 to 1866 (inclusive)
Other daughter, Charlotte Ann, was 3 years of age at time of 1871 census, so would have been born early 1868 or latter 1867.
This birth was registered in the first quarter of 1868:
Charlotta (sic) Ann Venturney at Kensington (Register reference 1a/207)
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Erin Sigler
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 38
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 2:55 pm: |
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Sugden refers to Venturney as a "German charwoman." Other accounts also refer to her as being German. Chris, your evidence seems to indicate otherwise. To what do you attribute this discrepancy? I'm not disputing your findings, I'm just curious as to the origins of what appears to be yet another Ripper "myth." |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 286
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 7:14 pm: |
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Many have commented on the fact that Mary Kelly does not fit the profile of Jack's other victims -- too young. If Jack had been spying out the land ahead and had seen Julia going in and out of that room during the week, he may have thought that when he got in and attacked he was going to find a 47 year old Julia instead of a young Kelly. |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 6:29 pm: |
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Hi all,
Is this the same Julia Vanturney that testified at the Kelly inquest? |
Timsta
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 5:51 pm: |
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Has anyone researched the Julia Ventura (age 56, born Holland, resident in Mile End Old Town) and the Julia Ventura (age 10, born Holland, British Subject, resident Spitalfields - possible daughter?) found in the 1901 census?
Regards
Timsta |
Timsta
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 5:42 pm: |
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This site may be of interest:
http://www.lightage.demon.co.uk/
Under the 'Black Sheep Index' (at http://www.lightage.demon.co.uk/BSINOTES.htm) they have 'over 120,000 Villains listed (and some nice people too) from court cases and inquests 1860 - 1910'. There is a listing for Julia Venturney in the index at http://www.lightage.demon.co.uk/BSI_UVyv.pdf. Sadly no age or occupation details appear in the index. I do not know the content of the press report(s) they are offering.
Regards
Timsta
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1330
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 9:48 am: |
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Some further recently found info that may be of relevance to Julia Venturney:
The 1871 census gives Julia's age at the time as 30, therefore, if that is correct, she would have been born in or abour 1841. We know from the 1871 information that her father was Richard Cook, so her birth name would have been Julia Cook. There is only one birth of a Julia Cook registered in London in 1841 and this gives her details as follows:
March 1841:
Julia Sarah Cook – St. George’s Hanover Square – Vol 1 Page 24.
In the 1871 census, Julia is listed as 30 years of age and married. Her older daughter is 7 so would have been born in the early part of 1864 (i.e. up to early April., the time of the census) or the latter part of 1863). Allowing time for the pregnancy, we would expect the marriage of Julia to have occurred at the earliest in early 1863 or in 1862.
This Julia Sarah Cook married in Quarter 2 of 1862 – exactly the time frame we would expect. The registration is as follows:
Julia Sarah Cook - Wandsworth – Vol 1d Page 658
I have yet to trace the name of her husband - I have looked in the listing for that quarter at all names starting with VEN and VAN and there is no candidate, and no correlation with the Wandsworth register reference.
If and when I trace this elusive husband I will post details
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1645
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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In her police statement, Julia Venturney said as follows: "I occupy No 1 Room, Miller's Court, I am a widow but now living with a man named Harry Owen." She confirmed this man's name in her inquest testimony.
In the 1891 census there is a man named Henry Owen listed living at 26 Dorset Street, described as a 49 year old dock labourer born in St Pancras. He is listed as married but i am unable to read his wife's name - it looks like Lother. Any help on this appreciated.
This may be the Harry Owen whom Venturney knew - if I find out any more I will post
Chris |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 439
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:19 pm: |
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Hi Chris
The only name I can think of which would be remotely similar is 'Lottie' who occupied Mary Kelly's old room around February 1892.
All the best
Rob |
Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 59
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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Could it be "Lottie"? That's the best I can do at the moment.
Phil |
DARK_INTENT
Sergeant
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:27 pm: |
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Some info on the daughters' name:
Rosina - Italian Italian pet form of Rosa. This is the name of a character in Rossini´s opera ´The Barber of Seville´.
This is interesting because the second daughter may have been called Charlotta (not an error as highlighted by Chris Scott earlier). Further info as follows:
Charlotte - A name which became popular in Europe after the sixteenth century. It comes from the Italian ‘Charlotta’ which is the feminine form of ‘Carlo’, the Italian for ‘Charles’.
If this is so, it means we have two children both given Italian christian names. This could simply be because Julia and husband were romantic souls, or may there is an Italian connection here.
All the best
D_I
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1646
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 9:51 am: |
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Hi guys
Thanks for the comments
Lottie is a possibility but the 4th letter does not look like a T
I am attaching the names full size to see if this helps
It may seem an obscure point, but if this is the Harry Owen who lived with Venturney I amtrying to find out when he married to find out his status at the time of the Kelly murder
Thanks again
Chris
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Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 63
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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It doesn't look like "Lettice" (an English name).
If the first letter were a "Y" or a "J", then Yutta or even Yootha might be a starter. Don't think so though.
Looking at this logically, the first letter strikes me as being most likely a "L", "Y", "T"? or just possibly an "S" but not a " J" (see two entries above).
Second letter definitely "o"
Third probably l or t, depending on which cross applies to - I read tt at first, instinctively.
Fourth t or H?
Fifth e, or if one with last stroke, an "a"?
Where does that leave one?
Phil |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1647
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 1:03 pm: |
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Hi Phil
Many thanks for the thoughts
I am pretty certain the first letter is L as a few lines above there is a woman named Lisa Alder and the first letter is identical (see below)
I have tried finding owen in 1881 and 1901 but so far without success
All the best
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3913
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 1:24 pm: |
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Chris, you've probably been down this road, but when I entered in the Ancestry search engine "Loth*" (no surname) and "female" I got some female names - Lother, Lothe, Lothi etc.
Robert |
Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 64
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 3:22 pm: |
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Lother would be the right one from that bunch, as it fits exactly Robert, but I it's certainly unusual? Is that just a literal reading of the handwriting do you think? What nationality would it be as a name? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3914
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 4:00 pm: |
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Well, Phil, Ancestry lists only three Lothers for 1891 in England - one male born Yorkshire, and two females, born Essex and Monmouthshire. It lists none at all in Wales.
Apart from the obvious Germanic male Lother, I can't say as to the nationality.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3923
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 8:49 am: |
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Perhaps it's an extremely bad 'E' and it's "Esther."
Robert |
Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 67
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 2:01 am: |
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Robert - that's the most logical suggestion to date. |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 493
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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I have an aunt named Letha, which may work, other than that looks like a closing loop on the second letter and not something an e would have.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Belinda Pearce
Sergeant
Username: Belinda
Post Number: 31
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 3:22 am: |
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It looks like Lottea to me |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1995
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 1:52 pm: |
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Hi Folks
here is Julia Venturney (or Cook(e) as she was then) from 1861:
Julia Venturney aka Cook
1861:
2 Ropers Place, William Street, Fulham
Head: Richard Cooke (sic) aged 57 born Kensington - Carpenter
Wife: Charlotte Cooke aged 55 born Wiltshire - Dressmaker
Daughter: Julia aged 21 born Kensington - Dressmaker
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2139
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 6:07 am: |
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I have today received confirmation that Julia Venturney's maiden name was Cook and also the name and profession of her mysterious husband. I obtained this from the birth cerificate of the elder daughter, Rosina, which was registered under the spelling Venteney.
The details read as follows:
District of Fulham
When and Where Born: 12 February 1864 - 2 John's Place, North End.
Names: Rosina Antonet Julia
Name and Surname of Father: Antony Venteney
Name, surname and maiden name of Mother: Julia Venteney formerly Cook.
Occupation of Father: Photographic artist.
Informant: Julia Venteney (the name is entered as Kenteney and crossed through) - Mother - 2 John's Place, North End, Fulham.
When registered: 14 Marcg 1864
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2179
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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Here are the details of Julia Venturney (Venteney) and her husband Antony as given on the birth certificate of their daughter Rosina:
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