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Message |
    
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3172
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 5:01 pm: | 
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Ok the biggie that cost £63 million quid was beyond belief!!!! Inane script,paultry acting and gratuitous sex and violence on an almost pornographic scale!
Seeming like a libertine take on history.........dont think it's going to go down well!
Comments! chaps!
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5216
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 5:40 pm: |
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Suzi, you don't expect truth fron TV, do you?
On a bright note, I believe the Avengers is to be repeated.
"Surely Mr Steed, you're not trying to buy your way into heaven?"
"With the meek inheriting the earth, it's the only place left."
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2559
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
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Couldnt agree more Suzi!Load of trash wasnt it!
Nats
x |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3175
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
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ROBERT!-
He he!! COME back the Avengers eh!!!!!!! God am working on my Purdie!
Nats
Was unbelievable!!!!!! we had all the tapes ready for 10 hours etc etc............ COME back 'I CLAVDIVS' Got it all on tape and dear God .........God Bless Suetonius and Robert Graves eh!?
Suzi x |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5217
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 6:32 pm: |
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Suzi, "I Claudius" was superb...but Claudius too did some nasty things.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3179
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
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Yep but more beautifully DONE!!!!
Suzi |
Alan Hunt
Sergeant
Username: Mews
Post Number: 20
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 7:53 pm: |
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seems to me the bbc's motto was "when in Rome, do as Hollywood would do and distort the facts!"
mind, all roads lead to...............overseas sales! 
Alan |
Phil Hill
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Phil
Post Number: 1009
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 3:33 pm: |
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Well, as a lifetime student of the period Rome covers, I'll speak up for it.
I think "ROME" is trying to say that Republican Rome was not as the Hollywood epics have it, all gleaming white togas and whitewashed pillars. It was an alien and colourful world.
I felt it had a good go at getting over the competitiveness and deep rivalries of the "first man in Rome" naTure of C1st BC politics. I thought both Caesar and to an extent Pompey were quite well portrayed. Maybe I would like to have seen Pompey more (faded) golden but the character seemed right.
The backstreets and the theatrical farce rang true to me (the streets reminiscent of the souks of Damascus or Cairo) with the colour and atmosphere one gains from walking the byways of Pompeii. I think the casual nudity and sex was also very "Roman" (they were not prudish about such things).
I'll admit I found Atia and Octavia portrayed in a way different to my own interpretation, but we know next to nothing about either. Atia is no more likely to be far from the truth than was Robert Graves' Livia. So I can live (Livia?) with that!!
I thought the scene of battle with the legionaries replacing each other and the close quarter combat (inevitable given the length of gladii) was excellently done.
Some of the plotting - young Octavius being heroic and rescuing eagles was far-fetched, but then this is popular entertainment, and the two soldiers were as well (autthentically) portrayed as any Roman legionaries I have seen on film. the scene were the centurion arrives home after years when his family knew not whether he was alive or dead, and finds his wife holding a baby, said a lot about the ancient world.
What other series or film have you seen that you prefer? I'll name one, "The Fall of the Roman Empire" which had a set of the Forum reminiscent of this one - but a film which also distorted history (though with its heart in the right place).
So I don't really see why you lot are moaning - much good here and 10 more episodes and another series to come. I can't wait.
By the way, any of you into McCullough's Roman series *First Man in Rome" etc? or any of the other series - Saylor, Davies, Wishart, Massie?
Happy to debate this in detail if anyone is interested. I think one can learn as much from seeing another's version of historical events on screen because of what one differs with, as much because one agrees.
Phil |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1111
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 3:50 pm: |
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Hi all,
Stick with the show; I found that it got better as it goes on. I particularly like Max Pirkis's portrayal of the young but politically astute Octavian. Over here we've got two episodes left in the season. I won't go into plot detail. My only gripe is that the timeline's moving very fast. Last night I saw that they introduced a subtle relationship that really has played no part in the series, a nice touch that shows the producers are at least attempting to pay attention to history. I find that the HBO series are generally very well written (although I think the sexual aspect of Rome has been overhyped--maybe I'm jaded).
You guys get Deadwood yet? Now that's the show to see. They've been feeding us Extras; I loved it.
Dave |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2575
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 5:02 pm: |
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Hi Phil,Dave,
All,
I was interested in listening to an Italian Guide to the Colisseum last February setting the record
straight regarding how gladiators were trained,cared for by doctors and nurses and kept notes on when injured at a hospital that was less than a hundred metres from the Colisseum.He was emphatic that only 15 gladiators died in total.He also pointed out how, later on, Nero became a supreme example of the corrupting influence of power,and the type of back stabbing
that went on all around him-similar to the Tudor Court with Henry 8th etc fending off contenders and the Church of Rome!
He reminded everyone that Nero was the one who
put a stop to wild beasts being used as sport and as a method of executing criminals - some 500,000 were slaughtered and he was apparently
troubled that many would become extinct!He turned the Colliseum"s Arena into a place where boats were sailed or mock ship battles were fought!
One of the treats was visiting a house on the Palatine Hill next to the Forum where one of Caesar"s senators lived in 69 B.C.
It was the epitome of restraint in colour-indigo and burnt orange murals in geometric patterns that blended in with mosaic floors in grey and dark orange.
Certainly Ancient Rome must have had another more sophisticated and restrained side than was seen in the first episode of this series-people not all so self indulgent as depicted ,especially in the city of Rome itself.
I doubt many people living today would recognise themselves depicted 2,000 years from now
if say the main source material was the News of the World and the Sun Newspapers with a bit of the Daily Mail thrown in regarding our foreign policy.
So much in History depends on who the scribes were commissioned to write for-which emperor---- or succeeding power
Natalie |
Phil Hill
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Phil
Post Number: 1011
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 2:06 am: |
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Well Natalie, Nero couldn't have used the "Colosseum" for anything - the Flavian amphitheatre (it's real name) was not built then. Vespasian and Titus built it on a lake which nero had constructed as part of the Domus Aurea, his spectacular palace which stood on the site.
As for sex, I think the Roman approach to both that and nudity are misunderstood by many. Lose the Christian morality and read the ancient authors, visit the brothel at Pompeii - Rome was a pretty earthy place. And it wasn;t a modern author who wrote the works of Suetonius (scurrilous he might be, but he was of the period) - even better dig into Juvenal or Martial's epigrams.
It was always evident (the academics are just getting round to it) that gladiatorial schools and the whole process of the games was VERY different to what the popular imagination decrees. The "sport" could not have survived if fighters had been killed after every match (how do you bet with any confidence on unknowns the whole time?). "Killed" as a term, may well have been as technical as "knock-out" is in modern boxing. Sometimes the word is literally true, but MOST of the time it simply means that certain conditions have been met.
Was it the House of the Griffins you visited? The Palatine is a wonderful place - I am particularly fond of the House of Augustus/Livia beside the Domitianic palace. I feel there a real contact with great events.
But it was an exclusive place to live. We know from Pompeii that some Roman houses were brightly painted within, even the ceilings. Yet at Herculaneum you have the very sober House of the mosaic Atrium where one salon is painted in a wonderful subtle "Wedgewood" blue.
Perhaps taste (and influences) changed as quickly as it did between Victorian clutter and drabness and 1920s art deco "simplicity" (by comparison) in more recent times.
But I still think ROME makes us THINK about ancient Rome and question the conventional wisdoms picked up from The Robe or Ben Hur, or the paintings of Alma Tadema.
I'm all for it.
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2578
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 9:16 am: |
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Hi Phil,
I havent enough time today to answer your post with the attention it so obviously deserves but in my twenties I lived for a short time in Rome, on the Aventino Hill, and used to explore the Forum Area and the Palatine with my then eight year old daughter.We used to get there during the day in the Winter when it was quiet - wonderful is certainly the right word for that experience!
I havent yet been to Pompey or Herculaneum but hope to one day.
Yes it was the House of the Griffins-a truly fantastic experience last February-cold and damp
but once inside that house it was like being in Aladins Cave!What a treasure house!
Anyway I accept your superior knowledge of all things to do with Ancient Rome.
The TV series strikes me as a bit crude and sensational but if its more or less accurate then OK-I"ll just turn my head away when it gets too gory!
Natalie |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3316
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 9:51 am: |
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For what its worth, I've really love this series. Its accurate in places, it takes liberties in others, and there are some subplots which are far too contrived - but overall, I'm hooked. Kudos particularly to the actors who play J.C. and Octavian. They own every scene they're in. Marc Antony also has his moments of brilliance.
The sex and violence is fairly spot-on for a pagan era in which human life was cheap and sexual taboos were practically non-existent.
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Phil Hill
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Phil
Post Number: 1013
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 12:54 pm: |
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Natalie - I don't think I said ROME was "accurate". On the whole I think Stephen's comment gets the balance right between accuracy and liberties. But it makes you think and it's heart is in the right place to me.
Like you I love Rome , I have never lived there but have visited several times. Did you know Giolitti's - the ice cream parlour near the column of Marcus Aurelius?
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2579
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 3:07 pm: |
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Phil,
Yes I do remember it.Ace!
Stephen,David,
I agree with you about the acting and am sensing that this is a more real presentation than I had at first thought.There is an article in today"s Independent,"Friends, Romans Countrymen"[Thought for the Day-Johann Hari]that is very thought provoking about the series!
Natalie |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3218
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
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Er ok will give it another (few) goes!!!!!
Suzi  |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5255
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
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I only hope they haven't mucked about with dear old Cicero.
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1116
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 7:33 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
How cool it was that you lived in Rome. That must have been wonderful. You must have fit right in with your English accent! I think all the actors in Rome are great, generally they are in all of HBO's series. Besides Max Pirkis, I think the fellows playing Pullo, Vorenus, Pompey, and Servilia are particularly great. I only know a bit about Roman history in general, but they do seem to be sticking to the main points, if in an understandably condensed way.
One of the things I do find funny about the show is when, once in awhile, they slip in a broad Italian character among the British actors--a couple of them seem to have floated over from The Sopranos' set.
For my money, nobody trumps Ian McShane in Deadwood or poor Adriana from The Sopranos ("Christafaaaaa. . .") |
Phil Hill
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Phil
Post Number: 1014
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 2:25 am: |
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Ian McShane was once a quite vicious Sejanus in a previous (failed) TV epic on Rome called (I think) "AD". The hero of that was called Valerius, but was so wet and boring he was nicknamed Valium!!
"Dear old Cicero", Robert!!! Old Tully was the most sanctimonious, self-serving, arrogant, devious, selfish, misguided, loquacious and self-deceived politician of the lot - maybe of all time!!! Forever going on about how he saved Rome - from a storm in a teacup to what Marius did - and then trying to do it again. Inciting others to treason but too cowardly to take part in the assassination of Caesar; always bleating about how if they'd only taken his advice it would all have been different. Indesicive because he was so concerned about his own skin, but hating Antony so he libelshim not with political but sexual innuendo (and not in a speach made in the Senate but circulated privately among friends!!
I could never make him out - because i was always taught he was so great - until I saw how so many Latin masters and classicists have fallen under the spell of his prose, rather than looking at the man and his record. A nasty piece of work - give me Caesar or Pompey any day (much more straightforward).
Phil |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5258
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 4:34 am: |
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You're not quite sure about him, eh Phil?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5260
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 4:52 am: |
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Actually I don't begrudge him his bragging about how he saved Rome - he was a new man and had to cover himself from a legal point of view - though I do begrudge him his notorious line of poetry.
Republican Rome was probably doomed as soon as it acquired a professional army and an empire.
Robert |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 4:17 pm: |
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The dialect gurus could've done a better job - since when was "Pompey" pronounced "Pompeii"? The name is conventionally pronounced "Pompy". I know there's no hard & fast rule with Latin pronunciations of this sort, but this really grated on me. Too often I was reminded of Frankie Howerd's version of Rome than of Robert Graves', as - come to think of it - did other elements of this dumbed-down potboiler. "Infamy! Infamy..." |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2582
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
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Hi Dave,
It was very good and a bit seventies wild.I didnt get to the decadent parties but my ex ,from the world of journalism,got to a few.I got the impression the Roman Aristocracy and their hangers on, still out did most others in terms of La "Dolce Vita".Their proud boast being that their lineage[and extravagance?] dates back to before Caesar, whereas in England our aristocracy only goes back as far as William the Conqueror!
I too only know bits and pieces of Roman History,bits picked up in Latin lessons years ago and a little from what the Forum and Palatine hills yielded when I lived there-also years ago.
But The House of the Griffins and Colosseum
and now maybe this programme ,"Rome",
have rekindled the desire to learn more!
Robert,
Phil is spot on from what I have recently learned about Cicero. Julius Caesar was far too benign a "dictator" than any of Cicero"s clique felt they could possibly put up with!
Natalie |
