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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1286
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 5:09 pm: | 
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I have not been posting much recently as I have finally got down to the final draft of the book I have been working on. It is entitled "Jack the Ripper - A Cast of Thousands." This has now been taken up by a US publisher, Apropos Books, and I will be submitting the final draft to them shortly. Hopefully the online version will be available within two to three months. As a foretaste for all my friends on Casebook, I am posting the introduction below, so you can the aim of the book and what to expect - and what not to expect! I will also post one section of the book here so you can see the type of material I have included.
All the best
Chris
Jack the Ripper- A Cast of Thousands
Introduction
A writer does not normally feel obliged to explain why he has decided to write a book. In most cases it can be reasonably assumed that for the writer to go to the effort of researching a book and putting it into print, there must have been something compelling in the subject matter that was sufficient to motivate the putting of pen to paper or, more likely in these days, fingers to keyboard. However, the nature and history of the Whitechapel murders (commonly referred to as the Jack the Ripper murders) as a subject for research and authorship is such that I feel some explanation is necessary as to how this present volume came about and the intentions behind it.
To put matters bluntly, the faceless, nameless murderer who haunted the streets of Whitechapel in the latter half of 1888 has become an industry in his own right. This may seem odd, or even perverse, to anyone who has not been bitten by the Ripper "bug." The study of the Whitechapel murders still has the power to engender extraordinarily strong passions even 116 years after the events that spawned it. There are many ways in which the Ripper can be a passion, or even obsession. Some use the mystery of the Whitechapel murders as a gateway into whole areas of Victorian social and political history. Certainly during the years since I first made Jack's acquaintance it has led me into many obscure byeways that I think it very unlikely I would have read about had it not been for my interest in this nameless man. There are also, certainly, what I can only and perhaps unkindly term Ripper "anoraks," whose obsession with the minutiae of the case can be both awesome and baffling. If I need an obscure fact about a victim or a suspect I go and look it up. I don't feel the need to have every minute morsel of knowledge stored away for some supposed future occasion when I may need it.
It also has to be acknowledged that it is certainly possible to have what I can only term an unhealthy interest in the case. The physical details of the Whitechapel murders can be, and indeed should be, disturbing as can some of the contemporary items of evidence, such as the post mortem photographs of the victims. In my opinion we should never forget the victims as individuals and that they were living, breathing people whose memory should be perpetuated as women who met a violent and terrible end, not as pieces in some intellectual parlour game. The Whitechapel murderer was not a pantomime demon king, nor some bogeyman from folklore nor a devil in human form. He also lived and breathed and walked the streets of London, had parents and a childhood, died and was buried in an unknown grave. He was a demented, loathsome individual who ended the lives of at least five women in a savage and violent manner.
The continuing number of new publications on the subject of the Whitechapel murders continues and shows no signs of abating. It is not my intention to make comments on any individual book or author but the general point can be made that the available tomes on the subject fall into three broad categories:
1) Works that propound an identity for the killer either in terms of a class of person or a named individual.
2) Works that serve as reference and background material such as collections of documents pertinent to the case.
3) Works of fiction more or less strictly based on the murders.
The books that name a particular individual are, not surprisingly, those which make the headlines especially if the person nominated to wear Jack's dubious mantle is someone already well known. There is still a surprising amount of press mileage in a Ripper headline and the more recent additions to the Ripper canon - such as the Ripper diary and the recent Patricia Cornwell book on Walter Sickert - have all been greeted by a barrage of press attention. Jack still has the power to command public attention and can certainly still sell newspapers, as his contemporaries were not slow to realise.
So why, all this time after the events which form the historical basis of the case, does Jack still have the power to fascinate, even obsess, people of the 21st century? There is not, of course, one simple answer. Apart from a morbid obsession with the murders and their physical details, I would guess that the following reasons can account for Jack the Ripper still holding sway in the public imagination:
1) The setting - or more accurately the imagined setting - of the murders is the alien, nostalgic world of Victorian London, the realm of Sherlock Holmes, of swirling fog and big hearted Cockneys, of hansom cabs and top hatted "Toffs." The fact that this world is more a product of our collective will and imagination than the decidedly less than picturesque London of the 1880s does not diminish its potency.
2) The case is blessed with a potent and striking nom de plume that the killer may or may not have given himself. Not only was the appellation "Jack the Ripper" a godsend to the Victorian press, it has ensured the survival of Jack's memory, in however garbled a form, ever since.
3) The figure of Jack has passed from a flawed living person to a figure of folklore, perhaps the ultimate bogeyman. The facts of the case have little relevance to this figure of legend and the mythical Jack and the almost supernatural status that he has acquired have taken on a dark but powerful life of their own.
4) The Whitechapel case is a conspiracy theorist's dream come true. So many conspiracy based suppositions or half truths have passed into common currency and have taken on the spurious status of accepted fact. The two most common of these among acquaintances of mine to whom I have spoken about the case are "Well, of course there was a police cover up," and "I thought it was proved there was some connection with the Royal Family."
5) The simplest, and most enduring attraction of the case is simple human curiosity. Most us of love a good puzzle, an enigma, an unsolved riddle. The plain truth is that the greatest boost to Jack's enduring fame was the fact that he was never caught or posthumously identified with certainty.
Another question I am often asked is if I think the truth about Jack's identity will ever be known. Apart from the fact that for me the pinning down of Jack as a named individual like some insect in a collection is not the most important, and certainly not the most interesting aspect of studying the case, the question is, by definition, currently unanswerable. It may sound an absurd truism, but the only reason Jack has not been identified is because we do not have the evidence to do so. As such evidence is not currently to hand, we cannot possibly say whether or not it still exists, or, indeed, if it ever existed. Maybe only one person ever knew the truth, and he now lies somewhere in an unidentified grave.
So, why another book? Surely everything has been said, every avenue explored, every document wrung dry of all possible shades of meaning? Well, no, actually. By way of explanation, I should first explain what book is not. It is not a solution of the case, so there is no point in turning to the final page to see the name of some startlingly new suspect because there isn't one. I will not be commenting on any previous "solutions" to the case, or making any arguments for or against any of the already established suspects. I will readily admit here and now that I have absolutely no idea who the Whitechapel murderer was. Of course, I have my own thoughts about the various individuals put forward, and the strength, or otherwise, of the arguments for their candidature. But they will form no part of the present work.
The title "Jack the Ripper - A Cast of Thousands" is, of course, an exaggeration. But this work will concentrate on the "bit players", the supporting cast, the list of people who flitted briefly onto the stage of fame, or notoriety, for a moment and then were forgotten. The witnesses, the friends and families of the relatives, some of the police officers involved, the lesser known victims apart from the so called "canonical" five - these are the people I will be looking at. Their lives will cast no searing light onto the central questions of the case but there is still a surprising amount we can learn about them and, hopefully, by doing so, we can see them as more rounded persons who played a small, often very small, part in the Whitechapel saga, in the story of Jack the Ripper.
(Message edited by Chris on July 12, 2004) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2696
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 6:12 pm: |
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Hi Chris
I think this is a brilliant idea for a book, and I wish you the very best of luck with it. To tell you the truth, before I joined the Casebook I wasn't all that interested in the minor characters of the case, but thanks to your posts and those of others, I now find myself quite curious to know more about these people (hopefully without becoming an anorak, even though I wear one!)Thanks for posting this introduction, and, to borrow a phrase of yours : this certainly was of interest.
Robert |
Eduardo Zinna
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eduardo
Post Number: 55
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 7:03 pm: |
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Chris,
I wish you all the luck in the world with your new book. Looking forward to it.
Best,
Eduardo |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 960
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 3:38 am: |
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Hi Chris,
You have always been a credit to this site, your painstaking research, and dedicated involvement in this case has produced some fascinating finds, and i for one when noticing a post from Chris Scott know that it will contain intresting and unique material.
I wish you all the very best on the books success, and I admire you for being honest in submitting that 'you have no idea who the murderer was' which is refreshing as most of us [including yours truely] have notions to his identity which tend to put blinkers on us.
Good luck.
Richard. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1248
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 4:52 am: |
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Chris,
I see a 'must have' looming.
An interesting concept which Im certain will do well.
I'd buy it !
Best o luck
Monty
....all good pals and jolly good company !!
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 500
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 7:03 am: |
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Chris,
Good luck to you with your new book. it sounds most interesting and I can see a space on my bookshelf magically clearing itself for such an occasion as this!
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr
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Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 9:19 am: |
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Chris,
Great idea. Best of luck!
Kevin |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 10:05 am: |
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Hi all
Many thanks for the comments
Here is list of the main charcters involved - this was the first draft from the index so there will be some additions
Chris
"Abrahams, Colda"
"Austin, Dick"
"Backert, Albert"
"Barnett, Joseph"
"Buchan, Edward"
"Buki, Mrs"
"Cadoche, Albert"
"Carthy, Mrs."
"Coch, Dr."
"Coles, Frances"
"Crook, Alice"
"Crook, Annie"
"Cutbush, Thomas"
"Davies, Morgan"
"Deary, Anne"
"Dudley, Hermione"
"Dutton, Thomas"
"Fiddymont, Mrs."
"Fisher, George"
"Flemming, Joseph"
"Harvey, Maria"
"Hutchinson, George"
"Jackson, Elizabeth"
"Kidney, Michael"
"Kohn, Dr."
"Levy, Joseph"
"Lippman, Julius"
"Lubnowski, Morris and family"
"Mann, Mark"
"McCarthy, John"
"McKenzie, Alice"
"Netley, John"
"Packer, Mathew"
"Pizer, John"
"Porter, Thomas"
"Prater, Elizabeth"
"Puckeridge, Oswald"
"Sadler, Thomas"
"Schwartz, Israel"
"Shere, Selina"
"Stephenson, Richard"
"Valentine, George"
"Venturney, Julia"
"Wilson, Ada"
"Winberg, Sarah"
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 270
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 11:10 am: |
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Hi Chris
Good luck with the book.
As the publisher is US based, will your book be available in the UK?
All the best
Rob |
Maria Giordano
Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 48
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 12:39 pm: |
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I join my friends on the board in wishing you the best success. Your posts are always interesting and the scholorship is very much admired and appreciated.
I look forward to being able to buy a copy of your book.
PS--don't forget Tiddles!
Mags
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1288
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 1:20 pm: |
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Rob
the book will initially be available on CD and by. pdf download and so will be available in UK and US (or anywhere elsoe come to that:-))
Im hoping it will go into paperbakc asap
All the best
Chris
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 1:20 pm: |
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Rob
the book will initially be available on CD and by. pdf download and so will be available in UK and US (or anywhere elsoe come to that:-))
Im hoping it will go into paperbakc asap
All the best
Chris
|
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 947
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 3:56 pm: |
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Looking forward to this Chris-as well as finishing the other one of yours which is very enjoyable so far
Best wishes
Natalie |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 961
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 4:35 pm: |
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Chris,
On a purely bias note, I shall be intrested on number 4 on your published list, Number one suspect finishing fourth, however if i place a bet i should get a return ew as there is more then sixteen runners.
Richard. |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 625
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 4:37 pm: |
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Congratulations Chris!
I look forward to the book as I find the whole concept of "the things that surround the murders" as fascinating as the murders themselves. Hope it makes it to paperback as I prefer the feel of solid paper in my hands!
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise."
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2700
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 4:53 pm: |
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Chris, did you ever find out the name of that institution in Alie St where Morgan Davies was working?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 5:34 pm: |
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I wish you all the luck in the world as well, Chris.
You forgot uncle Charles.
He needs at least a footnote when not a landscape.
Just let me know if you need any advice, as I'm a bit of an expert on the internet publishing side of things. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 6:17 pm: |
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Rob
Fraid I didnt manage to put a name to the place in Alie St
AP
Many thanks for the comments - Uncle Charles will get a mention:-)
Thanks for the offer of advice - I may well pick your brains on that
All the best
Chris |
How Brown
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 12:29 pm: |
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Chris: I can't wait to read it myself. Best of luck with sales !!! |
brad kelley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 5:54 pm: |
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chris i have to say your intro is very well written, i wonder if james green who was potentially at 2 of the sites will get any mention in your book (or for that matter any further discussion on this site)....good luck. |
melindacornwell
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 11:11 pm: |
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did george bernard shaw know your "prime suspect", Patricia? signed, Melinda Cornwell (my real (british) maiden name. P.S. Through history there have been off track "christians". Religious maniacs are the worst- but there are the real deals. Thank GOD. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1291
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 1:20 pm: |
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Thanks again for the additional good wishes and comments.
As promised, I am posting one section fo the book below to give my friends on Casebook a taste of what the content will be. The section (chosen at random!)is that dealing with Mrs. Buki.
The final book details the research on 50-60 characters.
All the best
Chris
JTRCOT
Mrs. Buki.
There are five murders which were committed in the late summer and autumn of 1888 which are generally accepted as attributable to the same hand. Collectively these five women - Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly - are often termed the "canonical victims." Of course, as is often the case in areas of Ripper research, there is by no means universal agreement that all these women were killed by the same perpetrator. The person whose presence on this list is most commonly doubted is Elizabeth Stride, it being argued that her inclusion arises from its synchronicity with the Eddowes murder and not from the nature and characteristics of the crime itself which, undoubtedly, differed in extent from the other four cases. The most commonly accepted explanation for this by those who would include Stride as a "canonical" victim is that the killer was interrupted in the midst of his ghastly ministrations, fled the scene and vented his frustrated bloodlust on Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square. It must also be mentioned that an earlier murder victim - Martha Tabram - who was killed just over three weeks before Mary Ann Nichols, has been, and still is, considered by some researchers to be worthy of consideration as a victim of the same killer. Tabram was often listed in hindsight by the contemporary press as a victim of the Whitechapel murderer as were two later women, Alice McKenzie and Frances Coles.
However, the last of the "canonical" victims, Mary Jane Kelly, has become probably the most studied and many of the theories regarding the Whitechapel killer and his motives feature Kelly as a lynchpin in their narrative. This is, in my opinion, for two main reasons. If the five "canonical" victims were the only five who died at the hands of the Whitechapel murderer, then Kelly was his last victim and so becomes pivotal in attempting to answer one of the most frequently asked questions - why did he stop? This in turn leads to the second reason. Many theories, both contemporary and later, tried to explain the Whitechapel killings in terms of a rational, comprehensible motive. If Kelly was indeed the last victim, it is but a small step of logic to assert that the killings stopped because Kelly was the focus and culmination of these acts. Certainly this was by far the most comprehensive and extensive of the murders, the mutilations on Kelly being horrific in their extent and savagery. But was this because the killer had finally tracked down the ultimate object of his insane search, or was it because this murder, which was the only one which did not take place out in the open air, gave him the privacy and the leisure to indulge his demented desires to the full? Many theories this make Kelly the focus of a logical narrative that has been woven to explain the murders. For example, the chain of events in the Dr. Stanley theory springs ultimately from the assertion that Kelly infected the doctor's son with syphilis. Kelly has been cast as nursemaid to a royal offspring, witness at a morganatic wedding - in fact if one looks at theories as a whole in which Kelly features, it is amazing she had time to fit it all in!
The ironic and frustrating thing is that Kelly remains the most studied and the least known of all the victims. About the other four "canonical" victims a good deal is known about their background, family and details of their lives. They have been traced in sources of data outside of the papers relating to the case, e.g. in census data. About Kelly there is simply nothing. Nil. Nada. There is not one firm, provable sighting of Mary Jane Kelly in any information source. The only account we have of Kelly's life prior to her murder comes from the man she lived with until shortly before her death, Joseph Barnett, with some small details confirmed or added from the accounts of friends and acquaintances of Kelly. But not one of the assertions in this account of her life - that she was born in Limerick circa 1863, moved to Wales when young, married aged 16, was widowed in some kind of mining accident, came to London circa 1884, worked in a West End brothel, visited France - none of these, nor any of her supposed details can be verified from the available sources. Of course there are possible sighting in the census and BMD data, but none are by any means definite. Looking for evidence of Mary Jane Kelly is rather like seeing oneself in a cracked mirror - you think you have found what you are looking for but there is some fact. some detail that simply will not fit.
The character of Mrs. Buki was purportedly a former landlady of Mary Kelly when she moved to East London. An article in The Star newspaper of 12 November, 1888, has this to say:
"Her first experiences of the East-end appear to have commenced with Mrs. Buki, who resided in one of the thoroughfares off Ratcliff-highway, now known as St. George's-street."
The surname Buki is a most unlikely looking one, and with good reason, namely that it did not exist! There is not one census entry under this name nor any birth, marriage or death either. There are therefore, logically, only two alternatives. Either Mrs. Buki and her involvement with Kelly is a complete invention, both the story and the name, or the name as reported has been misspelt. The Star does not name its source for this part of the Kelly story but it is worth noting that in both his police statement and his inquest testimony Barnett did not name or refer to Mrs. Buki. In my opinion, the most likely explanation for the odd name and its spelling is that The Star's nameless source was an acquaintance of Mary Kelly who was interviewed by a Star reporter and the name was written down as said, phonetically. If this was the case, then we must look at what names could be mistakenly transcribed as BUKI. This depends on whether the U in the name was long or short. If short, the name would have been pronounced as Bucky, Buckey or something similar. If the U were long, the name would have sounded like Booky, Bookey, etc. We have two other pointers that may help:
1) We are looking for a woman who at some point in the early to mid 1880s lived on or near the western end of what was previously known as the Ratcliff Highway.
2) There is no indication that Mrs. Buki came forward at the time of the murder either to given evidence to the police or to speak to the press. Another former landlady of Kelly, Mrs. Carthy, did come forward to give her version of some of the events in Kelly's earlier life. Of course, Mrs. Buki may have had her own reasons for not coming forward, but this may indicate that Mrs. Buki, by 1888, had either left the area or had died.
Now, with regard to the area where Mrs. Buki purportedly lived in the early to mid 1880s, The Star says she lived in one of the thoroughfares off Ratcliff Highway, now known as St. George's Street. The western end of the former Ratcliff Highway (later known just as The Highway) was known at various times as St. George's Street or, more simply, as George Street. I have seen references in 1896 and 1902 which name the street as St. George's Street, as does The Star article above. However, the Ordnance Survey map of the area for 1894 (reference London Sheet LI, Middlesex Sheet XVII.7) clearly refers to this street as George Street, running from south of Wellclose Street to Dellow Street. In fact this street, with regard to the Whitechapel murders, has two further points of interest. To the western end of George Street there ran to the south Breezer's Hill, another road in which Kelly allegedly lived and which we shall be looking at later. Also to the north, about halfway along George Street, a narrow road led into Prince's Square where stood the Swedish Chapel frequented by Elizabeth Stride and which had on occasion given her financial aid.
However, back to Mrs. Buki. I assembled a list of possible names for which BUKI could be a phonetic rendering. Some of these variants proved simply not to exist but the "short list" of possibles came down to Buckey, Buckie, Buckee, Booky, Bookey and Bookie. Of the census returns available, the nearest in terms of date to the period in which I was interested (early to mid 1880s) was the 1881 census. Although this search threw up a number of women in the East End - such as Rose Buckey aged 24 living in a lodging house in Osborn Street, Sarah Buckee aged 37 born in Shoreditch and Mary Buckey aged 27 living in Bath Place, Shoreditch - there was, in fact, only one woman living in the area in which I was interested.
Her name was Matilda Buckey and in the 1881 census she is listed as living at 1 George Street. The full household as reported in the census return is as follows:
Head - Alfred Buckey aged 52 born Bethnal Green, a tea cooper.
Wife - Matilda Buckey aged 46 born Bethnal Green, a silk weaver.
Their children are listed in 1881 as Alfred aged 20, a cabinet maker, Matilda aged 19, a silk weaver and Walter aged 15, a scholar. All three children are listed as born in Bethnal Green.
Looking back to the 1871 census, we find the family living at a barber's shop at 29 Club Row, Bethnal Green. The household listing shows the following:-
Head - Alfred Buckey aged 42 born Spitalfields, a tea warehouseman.
Wife - Matilda Buckey aged 37 born Bethnal Green, a silk weaver. Their children in 1871 are listed as Alfred aged 10 and Walter aged 5, both born in Bethnal Green. We now come forward to the 1891 census return i.e. the one following the Kelly murder. If the speculation above as to why Mrs. Buki did not come forward has any truth in it, we would expect to find that Matilda Buckey had either moved to another area or was deceased. The Buckey household listed in 1891 as living at 53 Seabright Road, Bethnal Green, and details are given as follows:
Head - Alfred Buckey aged 60 born Bethnal Green, silk weaver. Alfred is listed as widowed. The only one of his offspring still listed as living with him is Walter aged 24 whose occupation is now listed as a groom and coachman.
So, what happened to Matilda Buckey? A search of the BMD registers reveals that Matilda's death, at the age of 53, was registered in Whitechapel in the 3rd quarter (July to September) of 1887, reference Volume 1a page 237.
Of course, it cannot be stated that Matilda Buckey WAS Mrs. Buki. All that can be said is that IF Mrs. Buki did exist that Matilda Buckey is the only person so far found whose surname is phonetically compatible with that of Mrs. Buki and who was living in the right area at the right time and who would not have been able to come forward to give evidence or be interviewed at the time of Kelly's murder, as she herself had died in the previous year, 1887.
(Message edited by Chris on July 16, 2004) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2712
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 2:57 pm: |
|
Chris, that item confirms what we all knew - this book is going to be essential!
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1869
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 3:23 pm: |
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Chris,
Good luck with the book indeed.
Judging by the vast response to your announcement, I am obviously not the only one looking forward to it.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 807
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 3:33 pm: |
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Hi, Chris
The best of luck to you with the book. Indeed, your book confirms my view that there is a lot of interest in mooching around in the shadows looking at the peripheral characters in the case rather than looking for the "main man" as so many do. I think the side alleys of the case hold much fascination. And who knows, information from such sources may in the end lead us to identify Jack. And if not, well, a jolly good time will be had by all. 
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 114
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 4:06 pm: |
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Fascinating stuff, Chris
I’m sure your Cast of Thousands is bound to become one of the must haves of Ripperology.
Congratulations and very best wishes
alex
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1187
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 5:33 pm: |
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Chris
This is indeed riveting stuff, and I too feel that this essential nitty-gritty of the Jack story is by far the most productive and rewarding aspect to follow.
However this ‘Buki’ thing sounds fairly realistic to me, given the amount of immigration into those areas of London during the LVP, particularly from economically displaced members of the Jewish tribe, for ‘Buki’ is a very common forename and surname in this tribe, having its origins in the town name of Buki ah - both Arabic and Jewish naming - and then later used for the town of Buki in Hungary, where I suspect your Mrs. Buki came from.
Jewish Buki’s are big names in the toy world today, well in Israel anyway, and you’ll find them in finance and real estate in Australia and Canada as well as the USA.
So it is possible, but obviously like many other immigrants they might have corrupted their name to make it more acceptable to the new community they found themselves in.
Sterling stuff, Chris, can’t wait to see your next piece.
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1292
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 9:25 am: |
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Thanks for the added comments and, AP, many thanks for your very helpful info on the Buki name - I sense a rewrite coming on!
As a final "teaser" I am posting below another random section. This one is about Dick Austin.
All the best
Chris
Dick Austin
On October 5th, 1888, the police authorities in Rotherham contacted Scotland Yard to report that a discharged soldier named James Oliver had given them the name of a man he suspected of being the Whitechapel murderer. The name of this individual was Dick Austin. Oliver reported that Austin had allegedly threatened to kill every whore and to rip their insides out. Austin had a deep hatred of women.
All army divisions were contacted on the orders of Inspector Frederick Abberline for information, but no result was forthcoming. James Oliver was again interviewed on or about the 19th October, 1888. On the 24th October, Oliver was shown copies of both the “Dear Boss” letter and the “Saucy Jacky” postcard. Oliver claimed that the writing in the “Dear Boss” letter closely resembled that of Dick Austin.
For Oliver to have known Austin well enough to know what his handwriting was like, for them to have discussed women sufficiently for Austin to have revealed his inner thoughts to Oliver (or in company with Oliver present) it was a reasonable assumption that they had been serving soldiers together. We are told that by the time of 1888 Oliver was a discharged soldier. This term suggests to me that his discharge had not been too long a time previously. Any former soldier who had left the Army many years before would be more likely to describe himself by his civilian occupation, or if wanting to emphasise his military experience, as an “army pensioner” or “old soldier.” The census data most immediately prior to the murders is, of course, the return for 1881, so I searched there to see if I could find Oliver and Austin.
In fact there was only one serving soldier in the 1881 census under the name of James Oliver. He was in that year stationed at the Infantry Camp, St. Botolph, Colchester, Essex. The data tells us that he was 20 years old (i.e. born in or near 1861), was born in London and was, at the time of the census, unmarried. Similarly, there was only one serving soldier listed in 1881 under the name of Richard Austin (Dick Austin’s presumed real name.) He was at the time stationed at the Cavalry Barracks, Barrack Street, Norwich St. James, Pockthorpe, Norfolk. His rank and regiment is given – he was a Private in the 3rd Hussars. He was born in 1849 in Bexley, Kent, making his aged at the time of the census 32 years old.
We cannot ignore the facts that there is more then a ten year gap in their ages, that they were not, in 1881, stationed together, and that Oliver is listed as an infantry soldier and Austin as a serving in a cavalry unit. Of course, as they were both of low rank, it is possible that at some time post 1881 they were stationed together or that they became acquainted under other circumstances, but that is firmly in the realm of speculation and cannot presently be proven one way or the other.
We must now follow both these individuals through to the 1891 census to see what became of them. From the 1881 data we knew, in the case of James Oliver, we were looking for a person of that name who was born in London and would be 30 years old (or thereabouts, allowing for a certain “fluidity” in the age data, as previously mentioned.) As in the 1881 return, there was only one person listed who fitted these criteria. From the description of him in 1888 as a “discharged solider” we would expect him by 1891 to be listed as having a civilian occupation. James Oliver, aged 30, was living at 17 Swanscombe Terrace, Swanscombe, Kent, and is described as a carpenter’s labourer. Interestingly, the place of birth is more specific than the information given in 1881. We are told that he was born in Bethnal Green, London.
To continue our pursuit, we must look in 1891 for a Richard Austin, aged 32 (or thereabouts), born in Bexley in Kent. At first there appeared to be no one who fitted the bill. There was a Richard Austin of the right age who, in the index, was listed as being born in “Beeby” in Kent. As a Kent man myself I knew there was no such place, then or now! So I consulted the original enumerator’s sheet, and, sure enough, the place of birth was written as Bexley. Richard Austin in 1891 was living at 18 Chapel Place, Dover, Kent and was described as a journeyman shoemaker. His marital status was given as married. His wife was named Marie, aged 40, and she was born in Ware, Hertfordshire.
When we come forward to 1901, James Oliver had moved to 47 Railway Street, Northfleet, Kent. He was listed as a timberman at a cement works. His wife, aged 39, was Rebecca Oliver, born in Southend. They are listed as having produced 6 children – James obviously did not share Dick Austin’s alleged hatred of women! Sadly, there is no sign of either Richard Austin or his wife Marie in the 1901 data. I have looked for a record of the death of either between 1891 and 1901 but have been unable to trace any such record. They may have emigrated, of course, but what became of Dick Austin, if he was the alleged woman hater, is, like so much in the Whitechapel case, simply unknown.
(Message edited by Chris on July 17, 2004) |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 950
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 5:06 pm: |
|
Brilliant Chris,I have often thought about those two soldiers that Martha"s friend was reluctant/frightened to guive evidence against.
also the "journeyman shoemaker"---I wonder if he left the army after Martha Tabram"s death and took up as a "leather apron Shoemaker"?
Wonder too what exactly happened to his wife if she along with him has disappeared from the records.I wonder did he "change his name" after she "disappears" from sight!
Terrific and exciting discoveries Chris
Natalie |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 139
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 11:51 pm: |
|
Chris,
Looks great. An ambitious and worthwhile undertaking. I'd love to see George Marsh added to the list.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1293
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 3:15 pm: |
|
Hi all
I have been asked to post one more section to give a flavour of the book so here goes:-)
Chris
Albert Cadosch
It is probable that Albert Cadosch came physically closer to the killer then anyone else apart from his victims. On the morning of the murder of Annie Chapman, whose body was found in the yard at the back of 29 Hanbury Street shortly after 6 a.m., Albert Cadosch went out into the yard of the house next door, No 27, and heard a woman's voice say "No." Some minutes later he heard something heavy fall against the fence which both physically separated the yards and prevented his seeing what was happening at the back of No 29. There has been much discussion about how high the fence was, why he didn't look over and took no further action. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful justifier, but I do share people's frustrations with this nearest encounter with what was almost certainly the Whitechapel murderer.
Before we look at Albert's background, we must again mention the matter of his name and its spelling. In the course of looking at census returns, BMD records and press reports, I have seen his name spelled Cadoche, Cadosh, Cadoshe and Cadosch. I have adopted the spelling Cadosch because that is the form consistently used in the census returns from which the information below is extracted.
The first point of contact, to ensure that the correct individual was identified, was to confirm the residence of any of the Cadosch family at 27 Hanbury Street. This was found in the 1891 census:
27 Hanbury Street, Christchurch, Spitalfields
Head:
Elizabeth Cadosch aged 50 born Lambeth - Widow - China and glass dealer
Children:
Esther Cadosch aged 24 born Mile End
Irma (?) Cadosch aged 22 born Spitalfields
The surmise was that the Elizabeth Cadosch listed was Albert's mother and this was confirmed in the record of the family in 1871. At that time the family was living at 66 Brushfield Street, Spitalfields, a road which ran parallel with Dorset Street to the north. The details given are:
Head:
Paul Cadosch aged 37 born France - Glass shade fitter
Wife:
Elizabeth Cadosch aged 31 born Lambeth, Surrey - Glass shade fitter
Children:
Theodora aged 15 born France - Dressmaker
Albert aged 11 born Paris, France
Emma aged 3 born Spitalfields
Sister:
Esther Southward aged 5 born New York, America
Servant:
Eliza Panther aged 69 born Sheerness, Kent - Domestic servant
From this record we can deduce the following:
Albert was of French extraction and was himself born in Paris in or around 1860.
Albert's father, Paul, must have moved to England some time between 1860 (Albert's birth) and 1868 (Emma's birth who is listed as born in Spitalfields.)
The position of Esther in the household is problematic. Her status as "Sister" should refer to her relationship to the head of the household, Paul Cadosch, but the places of birth, the age difference and the surname Southward make this most unlikely. In the listing for 1891 (see above) there is an Esther Cadosch of virtually the right age listed, albeit she is listed as born in Mile End and not New York. The most likely explanation, in my opinion, is that both Albert's parents had been previously married. This scenario would make Theodora and Albert the issue of Paul and his former wife in France, and Esther the daughter of Elizabeth by a previous marriage to a man named Southward.
Something odd definitely happened between Albert's parents in the period from 1871 to 1881. His mother, Elizabeth, is listed in 1881 living at 11 Buckle Street, London and the details are given as:
Head:
Elizabeth Cadosk (sic) aged 40 born Lambeth - Tailoress
Widowed.
Daughter:
Irma Cadosk aged 12 born Spitalfields.
In fact, Elizabeth was not widowed at all - her husband Paul was alive and listed as follows:
The French Hospital and Dispensary, 10 Lester Place, London.
Paul Cadosh (sic) aged 47 born France - Glass cutter and glazier
Inpatient
Unmarried
It is certainly intriguing that Elizabeth described herself as widowed and Paul as unmarried. One wonders also why he was an inpatient in hospital. Of course, these details are gone beyond recovery.
By 1881 Albert had married and had left home to set up his own household at 54 Finnis Street:
Head:
Albert Cadosch aged 21 born Paris, France - Glass cutter
Wife:
Alice Cadosch aged 22 born Coggeshall, Essex - Dressmaker
Children:
Isabella Cadosch aged 3 born Paddington
Hannah Cadosch aged 6 months born Bethnal Green
Other:
Fred French aged 16 - Son in Law (sic - should probably read brother in law) born Coggeshall, Essex - General porter
Herbert French aged 14 - Brother in law - born Coggeshall, Essex - Carman's boy
Albert's occupation, glass cutter, would certainly fit in with the fact that in 1871 his father and mother were listed as a glass shade fitters. The two boys surnamed French are listed as brothers in law to Albert. The description of one of them as his son in law is obviously erroneous. Both boys are given as having the same place of birth as Albert's wife, Alice. As it happens I am acquainted with Coggeshall in Essex, and the fact that all three came from what is essentially a small village, must mean that the two boys are Alice's brothers, which tells us additionally that her maiden name would have been Alice French.
When we come to the census of 1891, Albert and his family have moved right out of London to Colchester in Essex. He has also had a complete change of occupation, him and his wife now running a fruiterer's shop between them. There is not necessarily anything sinister or connected with the murders which prompted the family's move out of London. The place they moved to, Colchester, is very near to Coggeshall, where his wife came from. It seems most likely that the reason for the move was some reason connected to his wife's family. Here is the listing for Albert's family for 1891:
44 Stamwell Street, Colchester, Essex
Head:
Albert Cadosch aged 31 born Paris, France - Fruit dealer
Wife: Alice Cadosch aged 32 born Coggeshall - Shop keeper
Children:
Hannah aged 10
Ethel aged 9
Frederick aged 7
Herbert aged 5
Gladys aged 7 months
All children born in Bethnal Green
The fact that all children were born in Bethnal Green, and the youngest is only 7 months old (i.e. born in August 1890) means we can probably place their move to Essex very closely - some time between August 1890 and early April 1891, the date of the census.
I was unable to find Albert listed in the 1901 census. At 19 Stamwell Street in Colchester, the town where the family were listed in 1891, the following family members were listed:
Alice aged 42 - Tailoress
Ethel aged 18 - Tailoress
Fred aged 17 - postman
Hannah aged 20 - Dressmaker
Herbert aged 15 - Office boy
There is one additional child:
Nellie Cadosch aged 8 born Colchester, Essex.
Intriguingly, Alice is listed as the head of household but her marital status is given as married, not widowed.
In 1901 Albert's mother Elizabeth and Esther were living in a confectioner's shop at 39 Virginia Road, Bethnal Green.
Head:
Elizabeth Cadosch aged 60 born Lambeth - confectioner and baker
Widowed
Daughter:
Esther Cadosch aged 33 born Mile End New Town - Plain needle worker.
So what happened to Albert's father, who in 1881 was listed as an inpatient in the French Hospital? He is certainly not listed in the 1891 census. From the earlier records of him we can deduce that he was born in or about 1834, so in 1890 he would have been 56 or 57. I think the answer to his fate lies in the record of a death registered in Whitechapel in the last quarter of 1890. That record tells of the demise of a Paul Alexander Cadosch and his age is given as 57 at the time of his death.
There are certainly many loose end in the story of Albert Cadosch. What tangled web of marital events happened between his parents in years 1871 to 1881? Why was his father in hospital describing himself as unmarried, while his mother was listed as widow? And, finally, what happened to Albert himself? I have yet to find a record of his death or place where he was in 1901.
If only he had looked over the fence, history might have been very different!
(Message edited by Chris on July 18, 2004) |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 970
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 4:59 pm: |
|
Hi Chris,
Excellent research, it is just as well for our Albert that he did not look over the fence, for i feel sure that our 'Ripper' would have despatched him.
Richard. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 811
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 1:39 pm: |
|
Hi, Chris and Richard
Chris, thanks for posting this interesting information which gives a fine glimpse into the contents of your upcoming book. I appreciate the preview!
Richard, it is interesting that the Ripper's violence seemed to be directed solely toward women.
Or are we missing something? Might there be something about the killer in the various news reports, not necessarily about the Whitechapel murders themselves, that Chris and others are finding? I am talking about incidents of violence directed towards men by an individual who might have been the killer?
Just part of my belief that one way of identifying the murderer might be in contemporary news reports other than those actually about the case and that might eventually turn out to relate to the murderer, or at least a good candidate for the murderer.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1294
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 12:26 am: |
|
Hi folks
The book is finished and goes of to the publisher tomorrow! Jeez I hate proof reading!!!
The final manuscript is 45,000 words, 122 pages, and, for editorial reasons I have had to modify the contents slightly. Joe Barnett will be in part 2 which Im already drafting, along with George Hutchinson and many others!
The final contents page is as follows:
Jack the Ripper- A Cast of Thousands
Contents:
Introduction
Chapter 1 - Sources and Methods
Chapter 2 - The Cast
Dick Austin
Mrs. Buki
Albert Backert
Edward Buchan
Albert Cadosch
Mrs. Carthy
Dr. Cohn / Dr. Koch
Frances Coles
Colicott
Annie and Alice Crook
Thomas and Charles Cutbush
Dr. Morgan Davies
Anne Deary
Thomas Dutton and Hermione Dudley
Mrs. Fiddymont
Joseph Flemming
Isaac Jacobs
Elizabeth Jackson
The Kosminki - Lubnowski - Cohen family
Joseph Lawende
Joseph Hyam Levy
Julius Lippman
Mark Mann
John Netley
Matthew Packer
Thomas Porter / George Fisher / William Green
Elizabeth Prater
Oswald Puckeridge
James Sadler
Israel Schwartz
Julia Venturney
Ada Wilson
Chapter 3 – What’s in a Name?
As soon as I hear when it's available I'll let you know and I will get the review copies that have been requested off as soon as possible
All the best
Chris
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2738
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 4:59 am: |
|
Hi Chris
Glad to hear that your book is finished, and looking forward to reading it.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 967
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 9:24 am: |
|
Chris -could I order a review copy and pick it up in August with the others?
All the Best with the publishing!
Natalie |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 179
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 6:25 pm: |
|
Hi Chris,
I never got a reply to the private message I sent to you. Is it safe to assume I'd be getting a review copy?
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
|
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1295
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 10:12 am: |
|
Dan
I didn't receive a private mail - would you like to resend and I will gladly send you a review copy. All the best
Chris
Natalie
That should not be a problem- I will get it sorted
Chris
|
How Brown
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 12:49 pm: |
|
Chris: Senor...si posible por obtener una copia con su autographia ? Esperando con mucho anticipacion...su amigo siempre....How |
How Brown
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 1:37 pm: |
|
Mr.George has touched upon an interesting point,in his post above. Never paying attention myself,as perhaps many or some of you have, were there ever any accounts of men being assaulted with the same m.o. as the Canonical Five were ( for example ) ?
Without diving into the "occultist" theory feet first,knowing occultists don't necessarily specify which sex their procured organs come from, Mr.George has asked a viable question.} |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1381
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:41 am: |
|
Hi guys
I have finally heard from the publisher (Apropos Books) that the book is now available via their online store as an e-book.
The url is:
http://www.mye-books.com/ebookstore2.htm
The "blurb" for the book can be found on their main page at:
http://www.mye-books.com/
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on September 17, 2004) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3041
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 3:06 pm: |
|
Thanks for that, Chris. I don't know whether to download it or CD it!
PS Isn't that Mitre Sq on the front?
PPS That sword one is you too, isn't it?
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1384
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 4:23 pm: |
|
Hi Robert
Yes the "sword one" is a fantasy novel - first in a series of six!!
I'm sure it's Mitre Square on the front but the publishers do their own artwork so it was in their hands
Chris
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 4:37 pm: |
|
The "Sword One" is brilliant-absolutely......
I would like to buy the "book" version of the JtR
Cast of Thousands.Is that possible Chris? Also can I pay by cheque rather than on line?
All the Very Best with this Chris-it looks great!
Natalie |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 4:49 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie - glad you enjoyed the novel and thanks for the comment
The JTR book will go to paperback when it has sold 500 - that is the arrangement with the publisher
I will contact the publisher and see if you can pay by cheque
All the best
Chris
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1376
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 4:57 pm: |
|
Sterling stuff, Chris... my congratulations.
I have a friend in South Africa who is able to download any on-line E book for free, but I'll pay up in the conventional manner as soon as I can find a useable credit card.
Seriously, this is an avenue I have been exploiting without a great deal of success for years and I hope you can crack it.
Seems very underpriced though. My last effort at E books was going out at $12.00.
All the best with the venture. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1387
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 5:14 pm: |
|
Hi AP
Many thanks for the comments - the pricing was at the suggestion of the publisher and I wanted to keep it reasonable. Hopefully the exposure will pay off - in the case of the novel I have been approached about placing it with Baen, a major publisher of sci fi and fantasy so hopefully things will build slowly.
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on September 17, 2004) |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 316
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 5:42 pm: |
|
Hi Chris
It was a bit awkward ordering a copy as I had to search for the paypal address, or it might have been just me.
I just got my copy though and I have to agree with AP and that it is very underpriced, so no one should have an excuse about not ordering a copy.
Best of luck with the book.
Rob |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1388
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 10:10 pm: |
|
Hi Rob
I will pass your comments on to the publisher
Many thanks for the comments
All the best
Chris
|
don juan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 7:56 am: |
|
don't you think george bernard shaw could have been the "ripper". |
Eduardo Zinna
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eduardo
Post Number: 73
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 2:20 pm: |
|
Don,
Not a chance. He was a vegetarian.
Eduardo
Eduardo Zinna
|
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 305
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 1:37 am: |
|
Bernard Shaw was someone people wanted to kill, not the other way around!!
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1756
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
|
Never heard that one Phil!
Shaw was quite a radical writer for his time and some of his plays still get shown in films or the West End-quite recently St Joan [film]and at about the same time a couple of years ago in the West End production of Pygmalian.
Natalie |
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 314
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 3:44 am: |
|
In the 1880s GBS was a young man and quite a firebrand. He was in conflict with Sir henry irving over the nature of drama - he didn't like the rather picture-box plays put on at the Lyceum - felt drama should have messages to convey.
He was raw and brash.
The quote represents my own view - though I DO quite like Shaw.
Phil |
|
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