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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 214
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 11:12 am: | 
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Guys,
I would be grateful for any input regarding this post.
OK, PC Long at the inquest into Eddowes murder stated he had "heard of a murder having been committed. I had heard of the murder in Mitre square". This was after finding the apron/graffito and searching the 6 flights of stairs in the Wentworth Dwellings but before taking the apron to the station.
In his report dated 6th Nov 88 (this date seems somewhile after the events of that September night...I assume he was working from his QB50) he states that once he found the apron and graffito he called PC 190 H prior to his search.
Now would I be correct in assuming that the only way PC Long could have possibly found out about Kates demise is from PC 190 H Willie Bettles ?
If I am then it begs the question how did Bettles know ?
Who was going around informing everyone ?
Would it explain why Long found the apron....or rather took notice of it ?
How could I find out PC 190 H's beat for that night.
Sooooo many questions eh ? Sorry !
As some of you know...its these little things that keep me going !!!!
Many thanks in advance,
Monty
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 571
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 5:03 pm: |
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Hi Monty
If you're right about Long finding out about Mitre Square from Bettles, and if Long is right when he says he met Bettles before the search of the stairway, then it poses the question why didn't Long search the flats as well as the stairs - Long said at the inquest that he didn't expect to find the murderer, more likely a body (or words to that effect).If Bettles told long about the murder, Long should have been searching the rooms.
Maybe a passer by told Bettles while he was waiting for Long to finish the search. Halse had been through the area and we know he stopped at least two men, probably more. Maybe that's how the news spread?
Any idea why Long would have left his notebook at Westminster? (the coroner sent him back there to get it) Could this mean he'd been taken off the case and reassigned to his original division?
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 117
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 5:13 pm: |
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Hi, Monty and Robert
Sorry, this is off-track from Monty's real question, but am I reading right, that Long was on his rounds and did not hear about the Eddowes murder until after 2:55? For those who are more familiar with his beat, is it reasonable Long could have been walking his route for over an hour after Eddowes was discovered, hearing nothing about the Ripper striking only a few blocks away?
Or could this be an indication he may not have been patrolling as dillegently as he should have been?
Cheers,
Dave |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 404
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 5:56 pm: |
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There is a coincidence of timing in the inquest evidence that may explain how Long found out about the murder.
IN his evidence Long said:
[Coroner] Had you been past that spot previously to your discovering the apron? - I passed about twenty minutes past two o'clock
and Detective Halse, who said he had found out about the murder at 1.55am, said in evidence:
I myself went by way of Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street, where I stopped two men, who, however, gave a satisfactory account of themselves. I came through Goulston-street about twenty minutes past two, and then returned to Mitre-square
So both Long and Halse were in Goulston St at the same time- the most obvious conclusion is that Halse informed Long of what had happened
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 572
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 6:20 pm: |
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Hi Dave, Chris
Just on the question of how far sound travelled, I'm constantly bewildered at people's inability to hear things. I mean, Clapp sleeping right through the Mitre Square business. Then there's Smith turning up at Berner Street to find a crowd gathered, having heard no cry of "Police". And the people occupying the flats in Goulston Street don't seem to have heard the police conference on what to do about the graffito - at least there's no reference to their being awakened by it.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 575
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 4:35 am: |
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Hi all
In the 1901 census there's a Met Police Sgt Alfred Long aged 39, born Ware, Herts. I'm sure you guys have been through this and it's just a coincidence, but I'm just asking if we definitely know that Long wasn't reinstated some time after his dismissal.
Robert |
Jon Smyth
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 9:43 am: |
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Hi Monty.
"....If I am then it begs the question how did Bettles know ?"
Well, to be honest, Long does not state how he heard of the murder, but if the sequence he describes is accurate then it may not have been via PC 190.
Also, Chris Scott suggest's it may have come via Halse, but once again, if we are to believe the sequence given by Long then Halse may have only come in contact with Long around 2:20, and Long says he heard of the murder 'after' 2:55 (following his discovery of the apron), so it was not Halse.
"....Would it explain why Long found the apron....or rather took notice of it ?"
No, in his statement he only heard of the murder after finding the apron, the graffiti, searching the stairs and calling PC 190 to stand on point while Long proceeds to the Commercial St Station.
"...before proceeding there I had heard of a murder having been committed. I had heard of the murder in Mitre Square."
So, Halse passed too soon, and PC 190 is not stated as the source, so Long possibly heard of the murder en-route to Commercial St.
This is by no means certain, I just feel if 190 had mentioned the murder then Long would have said as much.
Maybe, maybe not.
Regards, Jon
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 219
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 11:45 am: |
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Thank you all for your posts,
Jon,
Your reasons why Halse couldnt have been the one to tell Long about Eddowes.....I came to the same conclusions.
Long states that he had heard of the murder before proceeding to Commercial St and not whilst.
Its such a vague statement. It wasnt picked up on at the inquest and should have been.
Who told you about this murder ? How did they find out ?
Chris,
As Jon mentions Long states he didnt find out about the murder till 2.55am or thereabouts. But you make an excellent point. One of them is either mistaken or lying. Although, to be fair, Halse did say at about 20 past 2.
Monty
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Jon Smyth
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 3:34 pm: |
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First, my appologies Chris, in my previous poste I missed your first name (now corrected), and as there is a 'Scott' on these board's I may have given the wrong impression.
----------------------
Monty.
I think the most important factor derived from the testimony of both Halse & Long is that all indications are the piece of apron was not 'in-situ' at, or about, 2:20am.
And that is extremely important if true.
I think most find it less taxing on the brain-cells to simply believe they were both mistaken.
.....nobody likes a challenge these days
I prefer to believe that Det Halse & PC Long said what they meant and meant what they said.
Regards, Jon |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2207
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 3:54 am: |
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Here are the census details for Alfred Long:
1891 is interesting on two counts:
1) Long was hospitalised
2) His wife is described as a widow, but ten years later they are living together and have produced more children!
Alfred Long
1901:
33 Thrush Street, Newington, London
Head: Alfred Long aged 39 born Ware, Herts - Sergeant Met Police
Wife: Elizabeth Long aged 36 born Puckeridge, Herts
Children:
Elizabeth C aged 13
Alfred W aged 12
Walter J aged 8
Lilian aged 6
The above four born in Holborn
Margaret aged 3
Beatrice aged 1 month
The above two born in Newington
1891:
Kings College Hospital, St Clement Danes, London
Patient:
Alfred Long aged 29 born Ware, Herts - Policeman - Married
60 Duncan Buildings, Verulam Street, Holborn
Head: Elizabeth Long aged 26 born Herts - Widow
Children:
Elizabeth aged 3
Alfred aged 2
George A aged 4 months
All born in London
1881:
Park Road, Ware, Herts
Head:
William Long aged 64 born Ware - General labourer
Wife: Mary Ann Long aged 61 born Bengeo
Children:
Walter aged 24 - General labourer
Charles aged 22 - General labourer
Alfred aged 19 - General labourer
All born in Ware
(Message edited by Chris on October 01, 2005) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2208
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 4:18 am: |
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Out of interest here are the details for Bettles:
PC Bettles
1901:
154 Malmesbury Road, Stratford, Bow
Head: Willie Bettles aged 33 born Northants - Police Sergeant
Wife: Mary A Bettles aged 34 born Offord D'Arcy, Hants
Children:
Percy aged 7 born Oundle, Northants
Dorothy aged 6 born Westminster
Elsie aged 4 born Westminster
Herbert aged 2 born Bromley by Bow
1891:
District Police Section House. St Anne, London
Lodger:
Willie Bettles aged 23 born Stoke Doyle, Northants - Police Constable Metropolitan - Single
1881:
Stoke Doyle, Northamptonshire
Head: William Bettles aged 43 - Horse keeper
Wife: Ann Bettles aged 41
Children:
George E aged 15 - Agricultural labourer
Willie aged 13 - Agricultural labourer
Oliver C aged 11
Walter aged 9
Ernest aged 5
Fred aged 1
Herbert aged 1
All born in Stoke Doyle
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5091
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 4:23 am: |
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Chris, then he was taken back on. Thanks!
Robert |
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