| Author |
Message |
    
steve jones
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 1:50 pm: |       |
Did the police really photograph the eyes of the victims as they believed they may 'hold the likeness' of the killer?
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Brian W. Schoeneman
Sergeant
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 7:03 pm: | |
Steve,
As far as I can tell, this was mere conjecture on the part of a few people who happened to write letters to the editor stating that this could be a way of catching the killer.
If the police did do it, I've not read of it in the extant police files (so wonderfully provided by Mr. Evans in the Ultimate Companion) nor do we seem to have extant photographs of them, either.
It's interesting to note that not only was this kooky idea brought forward in a letter to the editor of a newspaper, so was the idea that a person could be identified by the raised impressions then theorized to be unique to each individual on their fingers. Where did they get that stuff?
;)
B |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2633
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 9:56 am: | |
The Foreman: Was any photograph of the eyes of the deceased taken, in case they should retain any impression of the murderer.
Dr. Phillips: I have no particular opinion upon that point myself. I was asked about it very early in the inquiry, and I gave my opinion that the operation would be useless, especially in this case.
19 Sep 1888. Inquest upon Annie Chapman.
I believe there were several statements to the effect that Mary Kelly's eyes were photographed, in the hopes that the murderer's image would be preserved in the retina... but I don't recall at the moment whether or not these sources were reliable.
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David O'Flaherty
Police Constable
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 2:32 pm: | |
All,
I think the claim that Mary Kelly's eyes were photographed comes from Walter Dew's book.
Phil Sugden goes on to talk about a Dr. Pollock in Chicago who, in the 1850s, claimed he could see images in dead people's retinas. Another man, Dr. Sandford, claimed he could see the killer in a murdered person's eyes (apparently just by looking, not using photography).
Cheers,
Dave |
Peter Wood
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 1:49 pm: | |
It's interesting to note that the ancient greek and roman philosophers, one in particular whose name I can't recall, had a theory that everything in the universe was constantly giving off an outer layer of itself, which would then interact with the relevant organ, thus you would have sight, sound, smell, touch, taste.
They didn't quite understand the concept of light rebounding off images.
The theory of the Victorian doctors isn't that kooky, it's just a question of where the image would be stored, if not in the retina, in the soul? Or the mind?
And where would MJK's mind and soul go after death?
Fanciful? Yes, but who would ever have dreamed up the advances that we've made with DNA.
Good to be back.
Peter. |
David O'Flaherty
Police Constable
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 4:06 pm: | |
While there's no contemporary record that the eyes were photographed (that I know of), there is a possibility that other Mary Kelly crime scene photographs exist. I remember Stewart Evans posting about some communications he had with a Mr. Eric Barton, who was a dealer in antique books. Mr. Barton had a collection of George Sims in which he claimed were MJK crime scene photos, including the famous shot we've all seen, but others to boot. Unfortunately, Mr. Barton died and the photographs, if there were any, have yet to surface. Maybe someday they will.
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Barbara Guardia
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 11:40 pm: | |
In the early 16th Century Mexico, there was a Marian Apparition where an image of the Virgin Mary was imprinted on the native, Juan Diego's tilma. The tilma, is in a Basilica in Mexico. They call the Virgin, Our Lady of Guadalupe.
Using the technology of modern science,the image of Juan Diego was found in the orbs of her eyes. It was seen in the early 20th century but kept quiet.Perhaps others in the mid-nineteenth century had seen the image with microscopes.
The picture isn't a photograph, but the idea may have been suggestive in this heavenly phenomena or something similar. |
Peter R. A. Birchwood
Police Constable
Username: Pbirchwood
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 12:02 pm: | |
Barbara:
My wife had her first communion at the Basilica where the Virgin of Guadelupe is displayed so she naturally has an interest in the subject. Whenever we visit Mexico we visit.
We have never heard of the image of the peasant being found in her eyes. The picture has been tested and it seems clear that it is a painting although it is difficult to say when it was made. It has been overpainted possibly several times. We would be interested as to where you found this statement. |
Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 16
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 3:31 pm: | |
Hi Peter, David, and Barbara:
For what it's worth here is an article on "The Mystery in Our Lady's eyes" about the story that the image of a bearded man and other human figures are reflected in the eyes of the image of the Virgin on the "tilma" or holy cloth in the old Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City. This looks to me as if it is in the same league as faces on the moon and the supposed widow's mites or other coins supposedly seen on the eyes of the corpse on the Shroud of Turin.
All the best
Chris |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Police Constable
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 7:07 pm: | |
Donald Rumbelow points out that Jules Verne used
this idea of identifying a killer from photographing the eyes of his victims in the
novel The Kip Brothers (the actual title -
LES FRERES KIP - not LES FRERES KNAP as Mr.
Rumbelow wrote in THE COMPLETE JACK THE RIPPER,
1975 Signet paperback edition, p. 84). And it
has been used in at least one horror film: THE
INVISIBLE RAY (1935) with Boris Karloff, Bela
Lugosi, and Walter Kingsford. In that film,
after Kingsford's death, Lugosi photographs his
eyes (he has spotted something) and finds
Karloff's image on the retina. Some ideas take
a long time to die.
Jeff |
Wolf Vanderlinden
Police Constable
Username: Wolf
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 10:36 am: | |
In his invaluable reference book, Jack the Ripper A Bibliography and Review of the Literature, Alexander Kelly includes a small chapter on the history photographing the eyes of murder victims titled: A Digression on Eyeballs. There seems to be no real evidence that this was done with any of the Ripper victims.
Wolf. |
Rachel Kirby
Police Constable
Username: Rachel
Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 10:50 pm: | |
I am curious as to when the last known photograph of a victim's eyes was taken. I am sure I remember this being done in connection with a policeman's murder in the early 20th century, but I cannot find details. Anyone know of anything later than this (or indeed what I am thinking of)?
Thanks, Rachel |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 8:09 am: | |
Hi rachel
I think you may be thinking of the murder of PC Gutteridge when the murderers shot him in the eyes allegedly to prevent them being photgraphed. But I don't know of any evidence that eyes were still being photographed into the 20th century
Hope this helps
Chris
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Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 8:31 pm: | |
Rachel
Anyone with the CD copy of the past 'Casebook' message board may be able to find an article I posted (cant find the original here at home) if they do a word search on 'Toronto'.
The article reported on a case where photographing the eyes was used to convict two negro's in the Southern States, I think, and a doctor from Toronto explained why it was not possible.
Sorry I can't be of more help, but you seem to be correct in your recollection.
Regards, Jon |
Rachel Kirby
Police Constable
Username: Rachel
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 6:01 pm: | |
Thanks to Chris and Jon
Yes, I was thinking of PC Gutteridge, I got the photograph/eyes details the wrong way round! Also Jon, thanks for the article - 1932! I am, however, suspicious that this was genuine scientific exploration at this late date. I wonder if strong liquor and someone's "good idea" really led to the pictures being taken . . ? |
Scott Suttar
Police Constable
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:35 am: | |
Hi all, this is my first post, just got registered yesterday.
The topic of phographing the eyes has always interested me. One of my early brushes with the JtR case was a documentary that I saw about 15 years ago. I think it was based on the book "Jack The Ripper: The Final Solution" by Stephen Knight. In this documentary there were a number stills of crime scene photographs and interspersed with these was an extreme close up photograph of an eyeball. Now I cannot say that it was an original photograph from a victim of JtR or that it was even taken in 1888 but I found it interesting nonetheless.
Has anyone else seen this documentary?
Thanks.
Scotty. |
