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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 640
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 12:29 pm: |       |
Here is a table of suspects named or hinted at by various police officials. Perhaps it will be helpful:
| Policeman | Suspect(s) | Time | Remarks | | Abberline | Chapman/Klosowski | 1903 | Nearly certain of identity. | | Anderson | “A Polish Jew” (Kosminski) | 1910 | Did not give the suspect a name. Name “Kosminski” supplied by Swanson. Certain of identity. | | Littlechild | Tumblety (also called Dr. T) | 1913 | A “likely suspect” Never heard of “Dr. D” (Druitt?) | | Macnaghten | Druitt, Ostrog, Kosminski | 1894 | Hints at favoring Druitt. Suspects “more likely” than Chapman. | | Swanson | Kosminski | ca. 1910? | Identifies Anderson’s suspect. | | Keaton | “Koch” or “Cohn” (Cream?) | 1969 | Barely audible in taped interview. Keaton aged 98 or 99 at the time. | | Sagar | An insane man who worked in Butcher’s Row, Altgate, who was then committed by his friends to a private asylum (Kosminski?) | Printed in 1946, also hinted at in 1905. | At least a very strong suspect. | | Monro | Unnamed | 1890 | Says he has “decidedly formed” a theory. Apparently thought he knew identity of killer. | | H. Smith | None | 1910 | Says identity unknown | | Warren | None | — | Never gave opinion. | |
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1352
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 1:56 pm: | |
Hi Andrew,
thanks that was very interesting
Jenni |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 641
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 2:51 pm: | |
Corrected table. In the first table I confused the name Chapman for Cutbush in remarks about Macnaghten's suspects.
| Policeman | Suspect(s) | Time | Remarks | | Abberline | Chapman/Klosowski | 1903 | Nearly certain of identity. | | Anderson | “A Polish Jew” (Kosminski) | 1910 | Did not give the suspect a name. Name “Kosminski” supplied by Swanson. Certain of identity. | | Littlechild | Tumblety (also called Dr. T) | 1913 | A “likely suspect” Never heard of “Dr. D” (Druitt?) | | Macnaghten | Druitt, Ostrog, Kosminski | 1894 | Hints at favoring Druitt. Suspects “more likely” than Cutbush. | | Swanson | Kosminski | ca. 1910? | Identifies Anderson’s suspect. | | Keaton | “Koch” or “Cohn” (Cream?) | 1969 | Barely audible in taped interview. Keaton aged 98 or 99 at the time. | | Sagar | An insane man who worked in Butcher’s Row, Altgate, who was then committed by his friends to a private asylum (Kosminski?) | Printed in 1946, also hinted at in 1905. | At least a very strong suspect. | | Monro | Unnamed | 1890 | Says he has “decidedly formed” a theory. Apparently thought he knew identity of killer. | | H. Smith | None | 1910 | Says identity unknown | | Warren | None | — | Never gave opinion. | |
(Message edited by Aspallek on December 01, 2004) |
Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 131
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 5:32 pm: | |
I wonder if Keaton's suspect is David Cohen?
Mags |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 402
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 6:26 pm: | |
It might be noteworthy that Abberline disputed the idea of it being the insane person or persons mentioned by other officials.
I also believe it's ambiguous whether Swanson actually suspected Kosminski himself or if he was just noting who Anderson claimed the killer was.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 642
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 11:57 pm: | |
Maria,
I don't think so. I've never heard the tape of Keaton's interview. I hope someone will digitize a copy so that the audio can be enhanced. But if the name sounds like "Cohn" or "Koch" (probably pronounced the German way, roughly "Coke"), it wouldn't sound like "Cohen." Admittedly, it doesn't sound like "Cream" either.
Dan,
Yes you are right, there is some ambiguity. Nevertheless, Swanson seems to agree that Kosminski was identified and therefore he would have to be a suspect even if Swanson is not convinced of his guilt.
Andy S.
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 403
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 12:18 am: | |
Andy,
I don't understand how "Cohen" wouldn't sound like "Cohn" (assuming that's what he said). The only difference between those two is a slight aspiration.
And regarding "therefore he would have to be a suspect"... Well, of course, I wasn't suggesting otherwise, I was just suggesting a way I thought the table would be more clear. Currently it reads as if Kosminski was Swanson's suspect. That may not be right.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 404
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 12:24 am: | |
In case it needs to be further clarified, I don't think it's explicit that Swanson was agreeing that Kosminski was identified as the killer. All that's clear is he said that Anderson claimed there was an identification.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 644
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 10:51 am: | |
Hello Dan,
From his marginalia it is clear Swanson acknowledges that Anderson's suspect was identified by a witness who refused to testify against him. It is also clear that Swanson believes this man's name is Kosminski. That would have to make Kosminski a suspect in Swanson's view. I don't think there can be any dispute about that. Whether he thought Kosminski was guilty is another matter, but it seems to me from the tenor of his note that he did. Note Swanson's statement that no further murder took place once Kosminski knew he had been identified.
As to Keaton's suspect, a couple of points should be made. First, I would place very little credence in it. Remember that Keaton was a 98 or 99 year old man trying to recall events that took place 80 years previously. Also Keaton mentions poisoning with strychnine, which of the known suspects only loosely fits Chapman or Cream. Further, Keaton states that the suspect was a doctor which pretty well limits it to Cream (among the known suspects) and would eliminate at least Fido's Cohen. I think Keaton was engaging in a bit of fancy, yet I would love to hear that tape. Also, Cohen is a two-syllable name while Koch, Cohn, and Cream are all one syllable.
Andy S.
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 645
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 12:09 pm: | |
Table revised again to give more information on Keaton's suspect.
| Policeman | Suspect(s) | Time | Remarks | | Abberline | Chapman/Klosowski | 1903 | Nearly certain of identity. | | Anderson | “A Polish Jew” (Kosminski) | 1910 | Did not give the suspect a name. Name “Kosminski” supplied by Swanson. Certain of identity. | | Littlechild | Tumblety (also called Dr. T) | 1913 | A “likely suspect” Never heard of “Dr. D” (Druitt?) | | Macnaghten | Druitt, Ostrog, Kosminski | 1894 | Hints at favoring Druitt. Suspects “more likely” than Cutbush. | | Swanson | Kosminski | ca. 1910? | Identifies Anderson’s suspect. | | Keaton | A doctor who poisoned with strychnine, “Koch” or “Cohn” (Cream?) | 1969 | Barely audible in taped interview. Keaton aged 98 or 99 at the time. | | Sagar | An insane man who worked in Butcher’s Row, Altgate, who was then committed by his friends to a private asylum (Kosminski?) | Printed in 1946, also hinted at in 1905. | At least a very strong suspect. | | Monro | Unnamed | 1890 | Says he has “decidedly formed” a theory. Apparently thought he knew identity of killer. | | H. Smith | None | 1910 | Says identity unknown | | Warren | None | — | Never gave opinion. | | |
It seems to me that there are two lines of suspects present in this table. One is that of an insane Polish Jew whose name might be Kosminski and the second is that of a "doctor" (Druitt, Tumblety, Ostrog, Cream, even loosely Klosowski). These lines intersect at Klosowski and Ostrog who were both of Polish or Eastern European decent and could have been assumed to be Jewish and were both medical men (or claimed to be). In Klosowski's case there is also a similarity in name to Kosminski. Abberline would have known of these two lines of suspect types and perhaps this is why he so conviced himself of Klosowski's guilt -- being a focal point of the two suspect lines. Perhaps this "intersection" of Jewish kook and doctor is also the sole reason Ostrog appears on the suspect list.
I also notice a similarity between Ostrog and Tumblety: both are very tall, thin, quasi-medical, eccentric individuals who played "hide-and-seek" with the police. Druitt might fit in somewhat if he was indeed tall as well as thin -- though he was not the eccentric.
As to the Anderson/Swanson suspect, I am convinced that they are talking about the same man. I am not totally convinced that Swanson is correct in giving his name as Kosminski, however. I think it is likely that Sagar is also talking about the same man, although there are discrepencies.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on December 02, 2004) |
Legion
Inspector
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 352
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 1:13 pm: | |
Hey Andrew -
Good work 
"I don't think so. I've never heard the tape of Keaton's interview. I hope someone will digitize a copy so that the audio can be enhanced. But if the name sounds like "Cohn" or "Koch" (probably pronounced the German way, roughly "Coke"), it wouldn't sound like "Cohen." Admittedly, it doesn't sound like "Cream" either."
If someone could get me a copy of the tape, I could do just that. Preferably the closest to the original source as possible. Know anyone who has a copy or anymore about where it was made, what happened to it after that, etc?
Legion
"Our name is legion, for we are many" |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 407
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 4:41 pm: | |
Andy,
It's obvious we could go back and forth on this for a long time, but I have to jump back in to try to stress these points.
It's not at all clear -- without making assumptions about why he was writing it which may turn out to be completely false -- that Swanson knew anything about Kosminski other than what Anderson told him, possibly after the memoirs were released and Swanson asked, "What's all this then?" Writing margin notes trying to clarify someone else's account doesn't imply that you had firsthand knowledge of the account or believe it to necessarily be true. Your reading of what the marginalia means could turn out to be true, but it's not at all the only way it could be read.
Also, the way people pronounce Cohen and Cohn are practically identical other than how long the speaker draws out the aspirated vowel, which can be easily missed in a poor recording. While Cream may fit the jumbled facts of his story better, it sounds nothing at all similar except for the beginning K sound.
We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 647
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 5:04 pm: | |
Dan --
Maybe I'm projecting more what I would be apt to do or not to do. Swanson's marginalia is more along the line of what I would do by way of adding information from a different source, such as my own knowledge. Swanson's narrative sounds quite firsthand to me. But it cannot be proven. At any rate, Swanson says that individual was identified -- whether this information comes from Swanson's own knowledge or via Anderson, Swanson does not qualify it. That makes the "Kosminski" figure a suspect for Swanson.
As to the name spoken by Keaton, I'll not challenge your point. I suppose certain British dialects would pronounce "Cohen" similarly to "Cohn." An American would pronounce them quite differently and that is what my ear it attuned to. But the description does not fit Fido's Cohen (not that you said it did) since that Cohen is not a doctor. I admitted earlier that the name Keaton uttered apparently did not sound like "Cream" either. I only make this tentative connection because of the medical connection and the connection with poisoning and the initial K- sound. As I said, I believe Mr. Keaton was engaging in a bit of fancy, anyway.
Andy S.
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Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 133
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 5:36 pm: | |
Andy--
I'm an American and I pronounce (and hear) "Cohen" and "Cohn" almost identically, as opposed to the Irish name CoHAN.
That said, you're right that the poisoning doctor is nothing like Fido's David Cohen.
Mags |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 324
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 6:46 pm: | |
Andy,
You might want to add the opinion of former Superintendent Arthur Fowler Neil who, in his 1932 memoirs, wrote: We were never able to secure definite proof that Chapman [Klosowski] was the Ripper. But the strong theory remains just the same.
He does acknowledge one of the points that bother modern Ripperologists, the startling change of killing method, but offers no explanation beyond . . . his diabolical cunning or some insane idea or urge to satisfy his inordinate vanity.
Neil, who joined the Force in 1888, was not, it would seem, involved in any aspect of the Ripper investigation, but he was part of Inspector Godley's team that investigated and arrested Chapman in 1902. It may have been through Abberline's reputed remark to Godley that the idea was first planted with Neil. Withal, the notion clearly stayed with him throughout his career that saw him rise to the top.
As your table ably shows, there was no clear consensus among police officials as to who the Ripper was. A state of affairs that, if you take a look at these boards, still exists today.
Don. |
Peter J. Tabord
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 6:11 am: | |
Hi folks
In actual fact, there is a reasonable consensus among the police that they did NOT know who the killer was. Abberline, Littlechild, Macnaughten, Monro, Reid, Smith, and others all explicitly state or otherwise make it clear that the police did not _know_, and where any of these offer an opinion on the murderer they make it clear that it is no more than an opinion.
The exception is Anderson, supported somewhat by Swanson. I put it that way because we cannot now tell whether Swanson agreed Kosminski was JtR or merely that he knew that Kosminski was Anderson's suspect. Only Anderson states that he has proof.
Regards
Pete |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 6:33 am: | |
One reason for lack of concensus among the police officers may have been the existence of an inner and outer circle.
There are a number of indications (the suggestions that someone should talk to Munro: the remark about the case being a "hot potato") that indicate that some officers and officials believed there to be a sensitivity about the investigation or suspects.
This may have meant that some were privy to a view that the culprit had (as an example, Fenian connections that were too sensitive to be revealed. Others may have been fed names, or drawn their own conclusions. This would give rise to two distinct camps.
NOTE please that I am not proposing that this happened, simply that something similar might explain the apparent division of view.
Thus Abberline might have been unaware, or excluded from "political" thinking; while Swanson and Anderson (for instance) would have been "insiders". In that case, "Kosminski" might be a red-herring - with Anderson being tantalisingly secretive (hints but no name) and Swanson backing him up with a name designed to mislead.
Personally, I am reluctant to accept/believe that men like Anderson and Swanson would have lied (the considered themselves men of integrity) and I think they genuinely believed Kosminski the "name in the frame".
On the other hand, a good case can be made out counter to this. That the Fenian connection was perceived as SO dangerous/so politically sensitive that even men like this would seek to lead conjecture down false avenues over many years.
But this ignores the detail of Swanson's marginalia (the Seaside Home and the binding of hands etc) which I find convincing, and lead me to think that Anderson and Swanson both genuinely believed Kosminski and for the same reasons.
Men like Abberline, at a lower level, may have been unaware of these unproven speculations (especially if Abberline was off the case when the Seaside Home identification - whatever that was - took place). They, therefore, drew their own conclusions from their own knowledge or later events (such as Cream's conviction).
Just some musings from me,
Phil |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 651
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 3:19 pm: | |
Thanks, Don. Neill's opinion now added to the table.
Interesting, Maria. I pronounce Cohn as "Cone" while I pronounce Cohen as "Coe-en," a distinct difference.
Andy S.
| Policeman | Suspect(s) | Time | Remarks | | Abberline | Chapman/Klosowski | 1903 | Nearly certain of identity. | | Anderson | “A Polish Jew” (Kosminski) | 1910 | Did not give the suspect a name. Name “Kosminski” supplied by Swanson. Certain of identity. | | Littlechild | Tumblety (also called Dr. T) | 1913 | A “likely suspect” Never heard of “Dr. D” (Druitt?) | | Macnaghten | Druitt, Ostrog, Kosminski | 1894 | Hints at favoring Druitt. Suspects “more likely” than Cutbush. | | Swanson | Kosminski | ca. 1910? | Identifies Anderson’s suspect. | | Keaton | A doctor who poisoned with strychnine: “Koch” or “Cohn” (Cream?) | 1969 | Barely audible in taped interview. Keaton aged 98 or 99 at the time. | | Sagar | An insane man who worked in Butcher’s Row, Altgate, who was then committed by his friends to a private asylum (Kosminski?) | Printed in 1946, also hinted at in 1905. | At least a very strong suspect. | | Monro | Unnamed | 1890 | Says he has “decidedly formed” a theory. Apparently thought he knew identity of killer. | | A. F. Neil | Chapman/Klosowski | 1932 | A “strong theory”, but not proven. | | H. Smith | None | 1910 | Says identity unknown | | Warren | None | — | Never gave opinion. |
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