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John P. Shimkonis
Police Constable
Username: Aquavalour
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 9:53 am: |       |
Hi, I'm new on this board, would like to start by saying I'm one who has an interest in solving crime and detective stories since I don't do this for a living. I would like to post something hopefully worth mentioning about Detective Geyer, who worked on the Mudgett case in 1890 since I am one who believes there is a link between Herman Mudgett and Jack the Ripper.
Detective Geyer is an investigator who wrote a police memoir titled "The Holmes-Pitezel Case" about the Mudgett murders, which Geyer solved. The book was written about 1896 at the turn of the century and is fascinating. I procured a copy for about three weeks from the Seattle library and reading through it I felt that Det. Geyer must be the true Sherlock Holmes.
Interestingly enough, all copies of "The Holmes-Pitezel Case" have been actually stolen from the Library of Congress in Washington, DC, as of the last time I checked and emailed one of the librarians there from here in Florida where I live. I wanted to reserve a better copy of the book. The librarian did not seem too knowledgable about Detective Geyer, surprisingly enough, but did tell me that the police memoir was gone. Unsurprisingly enough, Herman Mudgett wrote his own version of the crime which is still there at the DC library, published about the same time Detective Geyer authored "The Holmes-Pitezel Case".
What I would like to know is how to find out more about Detective Frank Geyer from Philadelphi, PA. Which police officer in the Ripper case is comparable to this American detective? |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 585
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 10:41 am: | |
Hi John,
Sorry I cannot help you with your question. But your post is very interesting.
Welcome
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
John P. Shimkonis
Police Constable
Username: Aquavalour
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 1:06 am: | |
Hi Jennifer,
Thanks for your response. Sorry I don't know who O. W. Holmes Jr. is but that's an interesting quote. Looks like you have quite a few posts on this board.
John |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 594
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 7:27 am: | |
Hi John,
I have no idea either. I found it in a book called how children fail, but that's another story!
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Jim DiPalma
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jimd
Post Number: 88
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:05 am: | |
Hi All,
John, there are web sites on which one can do census and genealogical research. I've never done this personally, but there are plenty of folks on this site who have, perhaps they'd care to jump in here. I'd suggest starting with Google to find these sites, then try to trace Geyer in the census returns. Knowing where he lived and with whom should open other avenues of research, you might even be able to trace his living descendants.
You could also try contacting the Philly police directly, they must have a public relations office that could possibly help you trace his police records.
As to which detective in the Ripper saga is comparable to Geyer, IMO, none. It's been a number of years since I read about the Mudgett case, but as I recall, Geyer knew who he was after and tailed him across several different states.
It must be after noon somewhere in the world, so,
Cheers, 
Jim |
Jim DiPalma
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jimd
Post Number: 89
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:09 am: | |
Jenn,
Surely OW Holmes Jr is Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., son of the famous 19th century American writer and attorney, no?
Jim
(Message edited by jimd on July 22, 2004) |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 599
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:22 am: | |
Jim,
I don't know but I like what he said.
Probably he is american because i think John Holt who wrote the book it was quoted in was american.
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 421
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 9:25 pm: | |
Hi all,
Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr. was the Boston Doctor, Harvard Professor, and writer/poet ("THE AUTOCRAT OF THE BREAKFAST TABLE"; "THE CHAMBERED NAUTILUS"; "THE WONDERFUL ONE-HORSE SHAY"; "THE LAST LEAF"). He died in 1894.
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. (who is responsible for the quote) is the famous Supreme Court Associate Justice (1902 - 1933), who (with Louis Brandeis) wrote the dissents on many conservative decisions of the Court in that period - most of these dissents eventually were adopted by the Court when they changed direction. Holmes Jr. (1841 - 1935) is the subject of many biographies, most notably "YANKEE FROM OLYMPUS". He was also the subject of the play (and later movie) THE MAGNIFICENT YANKEE.
My favorite Holmes Jr. quote is "Just because I prefer champagne to ditchwater doesn't entitle me to imagine the Cosmos does!"
Jeff |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 603
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 7:29 am: | |
Hi Jeff,
thanks for the info.
I guess we should get back to the point of the thread now though!
Cheers
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
John P. Shimkonis
Police Constable
Username: Aquavalour
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 2:30 pm: | |
Jim,
Thanks for the thumbs on checking into Detective Geyer, I think it was the tenacity that stuck in my mind when reading his book. I did not feel that I had the personal freedom to look into his life to find out some of the other cases he worked on, but I am certainly interested. My understanding has it that Det. Geyer did investigations from Philly for about a good twenty years, with "The Holmes-Pitezel Case" being his last investigation. Jim, you gave me a great idea about researching Det. Geyer. I certainly will look into contacting the Philly police. I have searched his name using internet engines and have turned up nothing due to the fact that he retired before 1900, I believe. But looking into his life would make for an interesting venture for somebody with the time and resources to do this. I certainly am interested enough. Sherlock Holmes and "The Strand" just didn't do it for me, "The Holmes-Pitezel Case" did. I don't think it's because I'm from the United States either, it's just the way it was written.
Sounds like a good idea to check the census returns. His wife Martha, and daughter, died in a fire right before the Pitezels were kidnapped, so I am not sure what to do about finding his descendants and geneology. I do have a good friend in this field and I think I'll talk with her, she's interested in true crime as well, fortunately. The best bet is the Philly Police, I'm going to go on that one, thank you very much Jim for pointing me in the right direction.
I'm a little newer to the Ripper case and did not pay attention to it because I thought too much glamour surrounded it. To cut to the chase, you infer the Ripper detectives could not tail an exact suspect(s) as Geyer did across several states. So, exactly where did the trail go cold and which piece of evidence / crime scene is a good starting point in reading about this crime.
By the way, this is an excellent website, I was not at all doing Ripper research when I found it. I was shocked at the Mudgett website created by Mr. Borowski, who did a filmed documentary on the crime. I thought he was serious about his pursuit until I viewed some of his links. And I find the Zodiac website by Mr. Voigt disappointing to somewhat a lesser degree. I believe I read that Mr. Voigt has been formally investigated at one point. Weird. The information is there but apparently not the compassion. Respect for the victims, piece together witness descriptions, learn more about the killer, get the facts, just strike a positive balance. |
Jim DiPalma
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jimd
Post Number: 90
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 1:03 pm: | |
Hi all,
John,
>To cut to the chase, you infer the Ripper detectives could not tail an exact suspect(s) as Geyer did across several states. So, exactly where did the trail go cold and which piece of evidence / crime scene is a good starting point in reading about this crime.
Again, it's been years since I read about the Mudgett case, but as I recall Geyer became involved in the case because Holmes/Mudgett attempted to perpetrate insurance fraud against a Philadelphia-based life insurance company. So, right from the beginning of his involvement with the case, Geyer knew the identity of the man he was after. He then spent several weeks trailing Holmes/Mudgett across the US.
IMO, I don't think the particulars of the Ripper case are comparable. While the members of the London police all seem to have had their own pet theories as to the killer's identity, I don't believe they ever managed to identify him. (I don't give much credence to the 'police cover-up' idea). I don't think there is a single, definable point in the Ripper case where the trail 'went cold'. Also, most of the police activity during the Ripper case was confined to a small geographic area.
But perhaps I misunderstood your question. If you were asking which police officer in the Ripper case is comparable to Geyer over the course of their entire careers (versus comparing just the two cases), I'm afraid I can't answer. I don't know anything about Geyer's career aside from the Holmes/Mudgett case.
All the best,
Jim |
John P. Shimkonis
Sergeant
Username: Aquavalour
Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 2:01 pm: | |
Jim, oh no, you misunderstand me and I am not making myself clear enough. The Ripper detectives had no exact assignment and no concrete suspect. They just saw, Smith and one of the witnesses present, an obvious perpetration in the form of a crime scene.
You would have to suspect the Philadelphia-based insurance company at the time. A business person did have the children in their possession at one time, with Mudgett at an insurance company office, exhibiting Benjamin to Alice and Howard. I mean, that is just so blatantly wrong, but alas, such are the mysteries of the serial killer mind. But Geyer was not assigned against insurance agents, he was assigned toward an actual offender. It is too bad that he did not get to the meeting on time and catch Mudgett, who has also been called Hatch, with an insurance executive.
Tumblety did have some financial involvement as well as some sort of dissection room. I am inclined to believe there are such things as corrupt investigators just like there are such things as corrupt judges. I do not know why I feel this way but myself certainly see that I need to focus onto Ripperology here, so, I believe my start should and will be PC William Smith's description on the night of the crime against Stride and the witness who saw the second suspect.
So, an inclination to tail the two suspects on the night Strider was killed is, in my opinion, the best way to proceed, Jim.
All the best,
John |
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